Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

Dubinusa

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You're assuming a lot on his salary. He's playing as he's good enough and the criticism he's getting in so places is completely unfair and certainly not based on his ability

True enough! Keatley suffered this too.
Tomane would not be at Leinster if his salary was not fairly high.
No one should be abused. Abuse is unfair and spiteful.
Critisism is fine! Indeed, I have criticized the Irish team and management over the past couple of months.
As far as his playing time goes, he's not shown to be ahead of R.O.L or C.O.B?
I don't think so!

stephen_n

Dubinusa wrote: »

True enough! Keatley suffered this too.
Tomane would not be at Leinster if his salary was not fairly high.
No one should be abused. Abuse is unfair and spiteful.
Critisism is fine! Indeed, I have criticized the Irish team and management over the past couple of months.
As far as his playing time goes, he's not shown to be ahead of R.O.L or C.O.B?
I don't think so!

COB’s defence has been questionable at best at times, yet we haven’t seen anywhere near the scrutiny that Tomane has gotten. ROL too has had some horror shows in defence, but has anyone suggested he’s not good enough to be a Leinster player or below AIL standard or rubbish?

Shefwedfan

Dubinusa wrote: »

Why should he be? He's not integral to the Irish team!
He's never going to get that kind of salary in Ireland.
He makes more than the average Irish players.
He also left his homeland, because obviously the salaries are poor.

b


What are you talking about, you made the point he was earning more than the "home grown" players. Which is clearly incorrect.



How do you know he make more than the average Irish player? are you the financial controller for Leinster?


What exactly is your point?

Dubinusa

Are you? Obviously, he left Oz cos the money is ****. Hence his foray into Europe.
He wouldn't leave Monty for Leinster if the money was that of an average Irish pro.
He is most likely the 2nd highest paid center at Leinster, after Henshaw.
These imports are all on good salaries. Money they're never going to see at home.
That's why there's an exodus.

Dubinusa

Healy is an 80 cap Irish international. He's world class.
Sexton is the reigning world player of the year.
Tomane is not at that level. So, he wouldn't earn that kind of salary.

Shefwedfan

Dubinusa wrote: »

Are you? Obviously, he left Oz cos the money is ****. Hence his foray into Europe.
He wouldn't leave Monty for Leinster if the money was that of an average Irish pro.
He is most likely the 2nd highest paid center at Leinster, after Henshaw.
These imports are all on good salaries. Money they're never going to see at home.
That's why there's an exodus.

You stated he earned more than the home grown as you call them, that ain’t true is it? Many of Leinster players will earn more
So what if he left Aus because of money? What difference does it make?
Both Ringrose and Henshaw probably onsimilar if not more money to Tomane, which based on his experience is about right

“These imports” ? Some way to describe a player to be honest

What about all the young Irish player in England etc? They an exodus for the money?

Your going around in circles trying to prove a point which is incorrect....

Exclamation Marc

Dubinusa wrote: »

Are you? Obviously, he left Oz cos the money is ****. Hence his foray into Europe.
He wouldn't leave Monty for Leinster if the money was that of an average Irish pro.
He is most likely the 2nd highest paid center at Leinster, after Henshaw.
These imports are all on good salaries. Money they're never going to see at home.
That's why there's an exodus.

Most likely this, probably that, must be something else... the reality is that you have f*ck all evidence about salaries and are trying to build an argument about an assumption you've made, which let's not forget is in response to a mere 500 minutes of rugby.

Don't let any grounding in fact get in the way of a nice xenophobic narrative.

Former Former

Annnyhooo

I see Ulster picked up a few injuries over the weekend. It would be a shame if Marty Moore missed out on this. We're in reasonable shape, fitness-wise. I assume Henshaw is out, I haven't heard anything about VDF so assume he's gone and Toner is definitely out. Cronin picked up some sort of knock on Friday so hopefully he's OK.

So maybe
Healy Cronin Furlong
Ryan Fardy
Ruddock Conan Leavy/SOB
JGP Sexton
Larmour AN Other Ringrose McFadden
Kearney

I don't know if Leavy is 100%, he didn't look at his rampaging best on Friday, but then not sure you can make great claims for SOB in the rampaging department either. Start one, bench the other.

Big question is who plays 12. My preference would be Reid but he didn't look in a good way on Friday. ROL, Tomane, COB could all do a job.

Exclamation Marc

Former Former wrote: »

Annnyhooo

I see Ulster picked up a few injuries over the weekend. It would be a shame if Marty Moore missed out on this. We're in reasonable shape, fitness-wise. I assume Henshaw is out, I haven't heard anything about VDF so assume he's gone and Toner is definitely out. Cronin picked up some sort of knock on Friday so hopefully he's OK.

So maybe
Healy Cronin Furlong
Ryan Fardy
Ruddock Conan Leavy/SOB
JGP Sexton
Larmour AN Other Ringrose McFadden
Kearney

I don't know if Leavy is 100%, he didn't look at his rampaging best on Friday, but then not sure you can make great claims for SOB in the rampaging department either. Start one, bench the other.

Big question is who plays 12. My preference would be Reid but he didn't look in a good way on Friday. ROL, Tomane, COB could all do a job.

Can see Luke McGrath starting with Lowe on the wing. Lowe hasn't played in over a month though would be a slight concern. Wouldn't mind seeing COB in at 12 with Kearney at 15 behind him.

Clegg

Former Former wrote: »

I don't know if Leavy is 100%, he didn't look at his rampaging best on Friday, but then not sure you can make great claims for SOB in the rampaging department either. Start one, bench the other.

Big question is who plays 12. My preference would be Reid but he didn't look in a good way on Friday. ROL, Tomane, COB could all do a job.

For his first game back after 3 months out I thought Leavy played quite well. Obviously not to his very best, but he looks to have hit the ground running. Slowed down a bit of ball at the breakdown which is something SoB hasn't been able to do recently. He also made a peach of a turnover which Whitehouse inexplicably penalised him for. I'd start him against Ulster. We need our best forwards on the pitch and he's one of them.

You're right about 12 being much of a muchness. None of them are as good as Henshaw, but since he will probably miss the game I'd go with CoB to replace him. He's in a good vein of form playing there. Carries hard and has a bit of pace too. Whether that translates to the higher level of European rugby remains to be seen. But he's the most on form candidate for the job.

stephen_n

Former Former wrote: »

Annnyhooo

I see Ulster picked up a few injuries over the weekend. It would be a shame if Marty Moore missed out on this. We're in reasonable shape, fitness-wise. I assume Henshaw is out, I haven't heard anything about VDF so assume he's gone and Toner is definitely out. Cronin picked up some sort of knock on Friday so hopefully he's OK.

So maybe
Healy Cronin Furlong
Ryan Fardy
Ruddock Conan Leavy/SOB
JGP Sexton
Larmour AN Other Ringrose McFadden
Kearney

I don't know if Leavy is 100%, he didn't look at his rampaging best on Friday, but then not sure you can make great claims for SOB in the rampaging department either. Start one, bench the other.

Big question is who plays 12. My preference would be Reid but he didn't look in a good way on Friday. ROL, Tomane, COB could all do a job.

According to ROC in the Indo last Friday VDF is fit, with Just Toner and Henshaw unavailable.

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Can see Luke McGrath starting with Lowe on the wing. Lowe hasn't played in over a month though would be a slight concern. Wouldn't mind seeing COB in at 12 with Kearney at 15 behind him.

Can’t see anyway that Lowe makes the 23, with Toner gone and Luke only back. JGP and Fardy have to be in the 23.

LostArt

stephen_n wrote: »

According to ROC in the Indo last Friday VDF is fit, with Just Toner and Henshaw unavailable.


Can’t see anyway that Lowe makes the 23, with Toner gone and Luke only back. JGP and Fardy have to be in the 23.

JGP might even start this one

stephen_n

LostArt wrote: »

JGP might even start this one

Distinct possibility I’d say, Luke looked fine last week but this would be a big step up in intensity. Especially after a long lay off.

Clegg

I think a place has to be made for Deegan in the 23. He's playing too well to be left out. Plus he's playing to a high standard across multiple backrow positions. His versatility is a huge asset. He'll be getting offers from other provinces I've no doubt. He's someone we must keep.

Buer

JGP has had an excellent season to the extent where I'd have had him in the Irish 23 if he was qualified during the 6N. Perhaps McGrath will get the nod for this weekend but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see JGP get the start given McGrath's absence. Personally, I'd prefer for him to start this.

McGrath looked ok but he was far from his best on Friday. The error that led to the penalty try was pretty brutal.

Richie_Rich89

Clegg wrote: »

I think a place has to be made for Deegan in the 23. He's playing too well to be left out. Plus he's playing to a high standard across multiple backrow positions. His versatility is a huge asset. He'll be getting offers from other provinces I've no doubt. He's someone we must keep.

Careful now. Troyzer will be on your case.

troyzer

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Careful now. Troyzer will be on your case.

I quite like Deegan. I thought he was in real danger of being shipped earlier on but his meteoric rise in form and SOB's departure means there's probably less pressure on Leinster to share the backrow.

I also didn't think they'd be able to transition Deegan to openside so quickly and successfully.

kingofthekong

I start Leavy and bench Deegan and drop SOB , sob has done very little in the last year to deserve a spot over Deegan , this is knockout rugby and you pick on form not on reputation

Shefwedfan

kingofthekong wrote: »

I start Leavy and bench Deegan and drop SOB , sob has done very little in the last year to deserve a spot over Deegan , this is knockout rugby and you pick on form not on reputation

It's Ulster, they are struggling to pull a team together....we are not up against Saracens.....give SOB a run


Please don't let me regret this post :P

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It's Ulster, they are struggling to pull a team together....we are not up against Saracens.....give SOB a run


Please don't let me regret this post :P

Awec has already screenshot it.

Clegg

VdF is out for the rest of the season. He injured his groin against France and underwent surgery last week. The guy has no luck. Missed the Grand Slam run and the knockouts of last seasons Champions Cup through injury also.

https://www.the42.ie/leinster-ulster-champions-cup-injury-update-4559468-Mar2019/

Squidgy Black

Clegg wrote: »

VdF is out for the rest of the season. He injured his groin against France and underwent surgery last week. The guy has no luck. Missed the Grand Slam run and the knockouts of last seasons Champions Cup through injury also.

https://www.the42.ie/leinster-ulster-champions-cup-injury-update-4559468-Mar2019/

It also seems to be either VdF or Leavy injured at crucial times of the season.

salmocab

Clegg wrote: »

VdF is out for the rest of the season. He injured his groin against France and underwent surgery last week. The guy has no luck. Missed the Grand Slam run and the knockouts of last seasons Champions Cup through injury also.

https://www.the42.ie/leinster-ulster-champions-cup-injury-update-4559468-Mar2019/

That’s a real blow, Ruddock, Leavy and Conan I would think with SOB or Deegan benching. I’m not as quick as some to ditch SOB but wouldn’t have any worries about Deegan.

Clegg

Squidgy Black wrote: »

It also seems to be either VdF or Leavy injured at crucial times of the season.

Openside flanker is one of the most physically demanding positions in the game I think. They're always attacking rucks to slow down ball and getting cleaned out by opposition forwards. It's no wonder there's so many injuries.

Also shows you how much of a freak McCaw is that he amassed 148 caps for New Zealand. He was rarely injured for long spells despite the attritional nature of openside as well as being singled out for extra special treatment by the opposition.

Former Former

Ah that's awful news.

Only silver lining is that the timeline should allow him a full pre-season and to be back in for the RWC warm-ups.

troyzer

Clegg wrote: »

Openside flanker is one of the most physically demanding positions in the game I think. They're always attacking rucks to slow down ball and getting cleaned out by opposition forwards. It's no wonder there's so many injuries.

Also shows you how much of a freak McCaw is that he amassed 148 caps for New Zealand. He was rarely injured for long spells despite the attritional nature of openside as well as being singled out for extra special treatment by the opposition.

McCaw is the best player of all time, hands down. He was utterly remarkable.

salmocab

troyzer wrote: »

McCaw is the best player of all time, hands down. He was often invisible .

Think you spelt some words wrong there so I fixed that for you

troyzer

salmocab wrote: »

Think you spelt some words wrong there so I fixed that for you

Richie_Rich89

sydthebeat wrote: »

yes 100% i am.

10 appearances for an average of 50 minute a game... with a 5 month lay off between the 9th and 10th cap. ... and fulfilling 4 different positions in those 10 apps... new systems, new coaches, new team mates..

100% its too early to judge him.

as an avid super rugby watcher i know exactly what he CAN do given time.. he averages a strike rate of 1 in 3 for every team hes played with.... and given a clear run of games on the wing ive no doubt he can do similar here.

and on the people who say hes on a huge salary as hes a NIQ, i wouldnt be too sure. Hes the one who fought to join Leinster. He still had a year left on his Monty contract so im sure that was used as a bargaining chip in the contract negotiations.

also, lets not forget the tough start nacewa had when he first came over. Schmidth as a coach got it too... and even Lowe was once described as poison on here for some of his early performances.

If the home grown irish guys are good enough, they will play... if theres a better player ahead of them, then as supporters we should be getting behind them.

to denigrate one player over another because they are not your own nationality is xenophobic at best, ignorant all the time, and racist at worst.

What he could do on the wing isn't really in dispute. I've said all along he's a good winger. During the 2013 Lions tour I remember thinking Aus should maybe pick Beale (who was only benching iirc) on the wing cos I was a bit underwhelmed by Tomane. But you've got to respect his track record of getting selected in a Lions Test series. Then he was on a pretty hot streak for the Brumbies just before he went to France. I think there was one game where he got four tries, so he's definitely got the quality to tear it up on the wing.

Schmidt had a tough start for maybe four or five games. By game 10 in charge he had a bonus point win over Racing and an away win against Saracens under his belt. I don't think his quality was in doubt by that stage. Similarly, Lowe had a big performance in the qf win against Sarries to his name around that stage of his time in Leinster. Nacewa was being played in a position that didn't suit him initially - a bit like Tomane now, I would argue.

You say that if there's a homegrown guy who's better he will play, but I'm not so sure that's the case. O'Loughlin has already missed out to Tomane this season even though he was performing better and has similar versatility (starts to his name in all 4 three-quarter positions for Leinster). O'Brien, to my mind, looks far more at home in the centre but probably wouldn't have got the opportunities to show it if Tomane hadn't got injured. The coaches feeling they have to give Tomane enough of a chance to find form could mean that others miss out even though they're doing better.

Whether or not he can cut it as a centre is very much up in the air in my opinion, and while you're giving him gametime to see if he's good enough others who have performed are necessarily missing out. How much of a chance is enough? ROL only has 2 starts at 12 and has produced the goods. COB has 16 appearances for the senior side.

As for playing him on the wing, if people think it's xenophobic or racist to think that it's overkill to have two NIQs for the left wing then that's their prerogative. The reality is that Leinster are falling over themselves with wingers. There's Lowe, Larmour, Byrne, DK, McFadden, Daly, and that's before you conside O'Loughlin playing there, or Keenan getting a few run-outs. How are you going to give everyone enough gametime to keep them happy? It's like the Munster situation where they had 10 halfbacks.

Again, I'm not ragging on the guy. I just think It was poor squad management by Cullen to bring him in. Not through any fault of the player himself, I should stress.

Burkie1203

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Again, I'm not ragging on the guy. I just think It was poor squad management by Cullen to bring him in. Not through any fault of the player himself, I should stress.

Sure Cullen is just a PR man. Surely it was Lancaster as senior coach who brought him in?