Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

salmocab

Faugheen wrote: »

And James Lowe, JGP, Zane Kirchner etc.

I'm sensing a pattern here.

They all won people over to varying degrees but Gopperth never did really, I think I was probably on that bandwagon with hindsight a bit but unfortunately for him he coincided with MOCs reign and was probably tainted by that quite a bit.

Buer

Gopperth's biggest sin was being selected ahead of Madigan. He was fine for Leinster and brought a good all round game which few outhalves possess, even winning a few breakdown penalties during his time here. But it was the same story, as soon as he made an error people were all over him. I think hindsight has really shown what a good player we had on our hands and failed to use to the best of his ability.

Leinster will become a place where foreign players will think twice about coming if this mentality continues. If a player has a good profile coming here of it there's a level of expectation, they better deliver on it very quickly or they'll find themselves on the receiving end of pretty sharp criticism. Even guys like Jowitt or Berne with relatively low profiles who have done ok for the most part shipped their share of criticism.

If you go through the foreign signings for Leinster over the past 10-15 years, the ones who are widely deemed successful signings aren't numerous....Hines, Contepomi, Wright, Elsom, Fardy, Thorn, Le Roux, Van der Merwe, Nacewa, Lowe....and even a couple of those lads got grief in their early stages.

AdamD

Buer wrote: »

Gopperth's biggest sin was being selected ahead of Madigan. He was fine for Leinster and brought a good all round game which few outhalves possess, even winning a few breakdown penalties during his time here. But it was the same story, as soon as he made an error people were all over him. I think hindsight has really shown what a good player we had on our hands and failed to use to the best of his ability.

Leinster will become a place where foreign players will think twice about coming if this mentality continues. If a player has a good profile coming here of it there's a level of expectation, they better deliver on it very quickly or they'll find themselves on the receiving end of pretty sharp criticism. Even guys like Jowitt or Berne with relatively low profiles who have done ok for the most part shipped their share of criticism.

If you go through the foreign signings for Leinster over the past 10-15 years, the ones who are widely deemed successful signings aren't numerous....Hines, Contepomi, Wright, Elsom, Fardy, Thorn, Le Roux, Van der Merwe, Nacewa, Lowe....and even a couple of those lads got grief in their early stages.

I highly doubt this, this happens at virtually every club. Foreign signings are always under more scrutiny than local lads. We might not like it but it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

Dravokivich

I find the last few pages a bit odd. I challenged people here a while back who considered Roux a failure for Leinster. But what happened with his time here, is the exact same that has happened with Tomane this season with an extended lay off due to injury. And he has developed quite well with the exposure and game time he got in Connacht.

Dravokivich

AdamD wrote: »

I highly doubt this, this happens at virtually every club. Foreign signings are always under more scrutiny than local lads. We might not like it but it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

The only scrutiny I see with Munster and Ultser, is typically their numbers, or inability to re-sign them.

Buer

AdamD wrote: »

I highly doubt this, this happens at virtually every club. Foreign signings are always under more scrutiny than local lads. We might not like it but it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

I think it's more prevalent at Leinster due to the success of the academy and of the senior team. The expectation is far higher due to levels of success and, if the performances aren't forthcoming, there is a vocal element calling for academy players to feature instead. Other teams don't have that scenario.

dub_skav

Faugheen wrote: »

And James Lowe, JGP, Zane Kirchner etc.

I'm sensing a pattern here.

Isa, Bent, Gopperth, Roux, Kirchner, Te'o, Tuqiri, Triggs, JGP, Lowe and now Tomane.
All got stick for having the temerity to be signed by Leinster.

Even Boss and Reddan got called out a fair bit.

Seems there are a lot of people who really do not like outsiders.

Edit to agree with others, seems they need to deliver immediately at an extremely high level or the criticism will start

crisco10

dub_skav wrote: »

Isa, Bent, Gopperth, Roux, Kirchner, Te'o, Tuqiri, Triggs, JGP, Lowe and now Tomane.
All got stick for having the temerity to be signed by Leinster.

Even Boss and Reddan got called out a fair bit.

Seems there are a lot of people who really do not like outsiders.

Edit to agree with others, seems they need to deliver immediately at an extremely high level or the criticism will start

I'm not sure it's that it's because people don't like "outsiders"; I think it's the nature of the beast. A lot of those players have come in on "big" salaries straightaway, so it's not surprising people expect "big" performances from day to day. And the focus is put on those players more by the inevitable (and correct) fanfare/press releases/media days hosted by Leinster to market their new big signing.
And then if it is not a "big" signing, people will also be likely to question the point of it, given Leinster's strong academy (and they may have a point, but thats not the players fault).

Compare that to an academy graduate, I've lost count of the number of homegrown players who I've remarked "wow, they've got 30 caps already". I.e. they get a lot of gametime without much focus, bar maybe the odd puff piece in a match program.

stephen_n

Don’t always have to be a overseas player to get it from Leinster fans. Noel Reid has endured plenty of unwarranted abuse over the years. Happens a lot more with overseas players, but some Leinster fans can be fairly unforgiving.

Sangre

crisco10 wrote: »

I'm not sure it's that it's because people don't like "outsiders"; I think it's the nature of the beast. A lot of those players have come in on "big" salaries straightaway, so it's not surprising people expect "big" performances from day to day. And the focus is put on those players more by the inevitable (and correct) fanfare/press releases/media days hosted by Leinster to market their new big signing.
And then if it is not a "big" signing, people will also be likely to question the point of it, given Leinster's strong academy (and they may have a point, but thats not the players fault).

Compare that to an academy graduate, I've lost count of the number of homegrown players who I've remarked "wow, they've got 30 caps already". I.e. they get a lot of gametime without much focus, bar maybe the odd puff piece in a match program.

It because with academy players you hope they are half decent - anything beyond that is a bonus. However, when a senior player is recruited and joins from outside the team, people's starting assumption is that they are already good (they got recruited by Leinster so must be good) and anything that doesn't meet that expectation stand-outs more.

There are a minority of supporters that don't like any foreign players.
There are a smaller minority of supporters who base this on a form of prejudice / racism.
The vast majority of supporters will judge on the merits of performance hence why Fardy and Isa are / were so celebrated.
But when a player doesn't hit the ground running - the voices of the above supporters become blurred and can create a much uglier perception than the reality.

I think were in that space now. Tomane hasn't quite hit the ground running and the voices of concern over his calibre are getting mixed up with the much smaller group of purists and creating a bad impression of the club.

I'm not sure what can be done about that - but at least on here we can stop entertaining some of the "anyone but foreigners" accounts as if it's a bit of banter. One in particular made some comments on the New Zealand thread that painted that poster in a very different light for me.

As much as Leinster being a community team is a core reason why I support them - I fully acknowledge the need and benefit to a professional outfit to recruit externally also.

Former Former

I don't see the foreign signings at the other provinces get anything like the grief they get at Leinster.

There is an insatiable thirst among a fair number of Leinster fans to get young home-grown players into the side, I can only assume it's a schools thing, but anyone who stands in the way of that gets horrendous grief. Doesn't have to be a foreigner, just anyone who doesn't fit the prototype.

Lote Tuqiri was another one who an awful time despite his main failing being the fact that he got injured.

Shefwedfan

Look at it this way. When Standar came over to Munster it was a huge signing and was greeted with much fanfare. But in his first season?? a couple of barn storming runs but for the most part he wasn't anything incredible.

The thing is he was given a chance. I bet you won't find the Munster thread at that time full of people slagging him off as useless and earning more than a academy player.

Now I am not saying Munster are incredible, at times they go the other direction and are not promoting enough players.

But in leinster, yes we have a great youth system. Yes we promote young player but hopefully the majority of those players will never leave Leinster or Ireland. So how do they skill up? get to see how the game is played in SH? well that is why Leinster etc have the option to sign marquee players. They not only play but they pass on skills to the young players.

I find it idiotic the comments about blocking young players, how many players in Leinster have ever got blocked from playing if they are good enough? even with our back row surplus we still get to give time to players, ok some might move on to get a guaranteed first team spot like Nordie but that was after he was a full Irish international etc....so he got his time in Leinster team.

I am sick about wages comments as well, don;t see why that discussion is even happening.

antietam1

troyzer wrote: »

Conor O'Brien is still in the academy. I'm not entirely sure what they make but I've heard it's around the €30k mark. I seriously doubt Tomane would have come to Leinster for that kind of money, he was probably making multiples of that in France and likely still is.

Bringing in Tomane wasn't a mistake. It was a great pick up given his form and experience. It's always great to bring a foreign player in. They can improve the culture and add fresh ideas. The issue here is that Tomane simply hasn't performed. He's not making as much money as Henshaw but he's not competing with him either. On current form, he shouldn't be started ahead of O'Brien who is on far less money.

There is an undercurrent of racism against Tomane on the webzones which is really depressing. But there is also a valid frustration out there. He is not an academy player. He's a seasoned international and injury aside, it's not acceptable for him to take an entire season to get a half decent performance out of him. Tomane had 9 games before his injury and an entire preseason. That should be more than enough for him to be performing at his best but he wasn't really getting any better. He was going from defensive liability to looking like a bang average Pro14 player. Which is not what he was brought in to be.

That all being said, he also deserves a shot at proving himself and I wish him every success. He chose to come to Leinster and said from the very beginning he wants a long future here. I hope he gets it and those who write him off have egg on their faces while hailing him as the reincarnation of Isa.

Not an entire pre season, he ran around a park on his own due to visa? issues.
Sad to hear about the racism.

troyzer

antietam1 wrote: »

Not an entire pre season, he ran around a park on his own due to visa? issues.
Sad to hear about the racism.

Was he not here by the end of July? Happy to stand corrected.

I haven't seen overt racism if I'm being honest but you can see the insinuation in some comments, not here so much. More on facebook and twitter.

Principal Skinner

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Look at it this way. When Standar came over to Munster it was a huge signing and was greeted with much fanfare. But in his first season?? a couple of barn storming runs but for the most part he wasn't anything incredible.

The thing is he was given a chance. I bet you won't find the Munster thread at that time full of people slagging him off as useless and earning more than a academy player.

Now I am not saying Munster are incredible, at times they go the other direction and are not promoting enough players.

But in leinster, yes we have a great youth system. Yes we promote young player but hopefully the majority of those players will never leave Leinster or Ireland. So how do they skill up? get to see how the game is played in SH? well that is why Leinster etc have the option to sign marquee players. They not only play but they pass on skills to the young players.

I find it idiotic the comments about blocking young players, how many players in Leinster have ever got blocked from playing if they are good enough? even with our back row surplus we still get to give time to players, ok some might move on to get a guaranteed first team spot like Nordie but that was after he was a full Irish international etc....so he got his time in Leinster team.

I am sick about wages comments as well, don;t see why that discussion is even happening.

I guess Munster are so busy giving their foreign players a chance they never give the local lads one.....

Shefwedfan

Principal Skinner wrote: »

I guess Munster are so busy giving their foreign players a chance they never give the local lads one.....

Out of the post you pick that bit.....:rolleyes:

Exclamation Marc

troyzer wrote: »

Was he not here by the end of July? Happy to stand corrected.

I haven't seen overt racism if I'm being honest but you can see the insinuation in some comments, not here so much. More on facebook and twitter.

No, you're correct. He was here in the last week of July training.

Dubinusa

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What their salary is doesnt really matter. Tomane is more than good enough to play and isnt mediocre at best.

He hasnt been poor.... and wouldnt say he's been bad signing. he's there as much to help tide over side when internationals are away as anything else and he's been fine at that.

Wouldn't say he's a good signing either. At least so far.
At best, he's a depth lad, so far.
Salary does matter. If they don't perform. He's paid on past performance and experience. He's failed to hit the ground running. So far. He may be better next season or he may not.
I'd have him below C.O.B and R.O.L for the 12 shirt.

Dubinusa

I hope Racing win this week. I think Toulouse are a tougher proposition.
That said, Glasgow to beat Saracens would be ideal.
Sarries are a tough side and have won this before. I think they'll be the team to beat.
Racing are a good side, but I think we have enough to beat them over there.
Just hope we don't drop the ball this week!

troyzer

Dubinusa wrote: »

I hope Racing win this week. I think Toulouse are a tougher proposition.
That said, Glasgow to beat Saracens would be ideal.
Sarries are a tough side and have won this before. I think they'll be the team to beat.
Racing are a good side, but I think we have enough to beat them over there.
Just hope we don't drop the ball this week!

You think going to Paris is an easier draw than hosting Toulouse? We've already battered Toulouse at home while missing some of our best players.

stephen_n

Dubinusa wrote: »

I hope Racing win this week. I think Toulouse are a tougher proposition.
That said, Glasgow to beat Saracens would be ideal.
Sarries are a tough side and have won this before. I think they'll be the team to beat.
Racing are a good side, but I think we have enough to beat them over there.
Just hope we don't drop the ball this week!

So you’d prefer Racing away to Toulouse at home???? That’s a bit mad Ted

Richie_Rich89

There's clearly a problem with the Tomane signing. It's only taken an academy player a handful of games to show that he's a good bit better at 12 than a heralded international. The problem is that people misdiagnose the situation. They lash out at the player. It's probably due to ignorance about the game - and quite possibly ignorance and lack of education in general.

It was the same in some respect with the Jimmy Gopperth situation. The uneducated, semi-literate masses assumed that one small cog was the main cause of the problem. He was scapegoated in a big way for the team's failings under O'Connor. I remember suggesting to someone on the score.ie website at the time that Gopperth would look really good if he was playing under Schmidt. For me he was a very sensible signing and his selection over Madigan wasn't really controversial at all.

The correct level of analysis is to ask what those who manage the squad and select the team are doing.

Clegg

I see Carbery has extended his contract at Munster for another two seasons. No doubt I'll be accused of having sour grapes by the Munster crew, but I don't think he's kicked on like hoped. He's still the same player he was last season but with better goal kicking. I'm a huge fan of his and the massive potential he holds. But the problems in his game are still there.

Dubinusa

troyzer wrote: »

You think going to Paris is an easier draw than hosting Toulouse? We've already battered Toulouse at home while missing some of our best players.

I think Toulouse are a better side. I think Racing would be easier, even away.
I may be wrong!
Either way, we got the best of Racing last year in the final and I think we'd be in their heads.

Clegg

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think Toulouse are a better side. I think Racing would be easier, even away.
I may be wrong!
Either way, we got the best of Racing last year in the final and I think we'd be in their heads.

Racing in Paris would be a hell of a lot harder than Toulouse in Dublin. Leinster have already shown they can strangle the life out of Toulouse at home.

Eod100

troyzer wrote: »

You think going to Paris is an easier draw than hosting Toulouse? We've already battered Toulouse at home while missing some of our best players.

I can kinda see the logic in what Dub's saying. Don't think Leinster would fear playing an away semi vs Racing but Tolouse could be potentially be tougher opponents even at home.

Wouldn't be too surprised if they came through against Racing

AbusesToilets

Clegg wrote: »

I see Carbery has extended his contract at Munster for another two seasons. No doubt I'll be accused of having sour grapes by the Munster crew, but I don't think he's kicked on like hoped. He's still the same player he was last season but with better goal kicking. I'm a huge fan of his and the massive potential he holds. But the problems in his game are still there.

What could be done to bring him on? In mind Madigan in previous seasons, how do you coach that?

aloooof

Clegg wrote: »

I see Carbery has extended his contract at Munster for another two seasons. No doubt I'll be accused of having sour grapes by the Munster crew, but I don't think he's kicked on like hoped. He's still the same player he was last season but with better goal kicking. I'm a huge fan of his and the massive potential he holds. But the problems in his game are still there.

The problems in his game were never going to be solved in such a short time tho, effectively 2/3rd's of a season?

For me, his run after the Castres game was impressive (especially his goal kicking, as you mentioned). He's been a step above anything we've had since ROG, (Bleyendaal in 16/17 probably being closest). He's still only 23. And this is his first season getting a number of games starting at 10.

Put all that together and I think the above is a bit harsh on him.

Clegg

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What could be done to bring him on? In mind Madigan in previous seasons, how do you coach that?

He has a line breaking ability that very few 10's possess. He can kick off either foot and plays heads up rugby. But that's no different from his breakthrough a few years ago. For for me he still struggles against solid defences and is still prone to brain farts. I actually think he's just at the wrong province to really develop as a great 10. Munster are a poorly coached side with regards to back play. Great outside backs but no way of using them effectively because their game is still so forwards oriented.