Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

stephen_n

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Fake news. And an unfair gratuitous swipe at your fellow Leinster supporter being racist.

Or maybe you are right. They way Leinster fans rejected Elsom, Isa, Whitaker, Hekanui, Hines, Contepomi, Strauss simply because they werent from the Sandymount-Blackrock-Terenure golden triangle, even though they played well, does say something.

Much as I’m loath to take anything you post seriously. Goperth, Kitchener, T’eo, Tomane and Tuqiri. Unless the import is a superstar they will be subject to unfair criticism and even abuse. I’ve never seen or heard that attitude towards homegrown players.

Squidgy Black

stephen_n wrote: »

Much as I’m loath to take anything you post seriously. Goperth, Kitchener, T’eo, Tomane and Tuqiri. Unless the import is a superstar they will be subject to unfair criticism and even abuse. I’ve never seen or heard that attitude towards homegrown players.

Bent also.

Fairly damning that one recently a player's family member has come out on social media and referenced the vitriol that's directed towards imports by a subset of Leinster fans when they're not lighting the place on fire.

salmocab

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Bent also.

Fairly damning that one recently a player's family member has come out on social media and referenced the vitriol that's directed towards imports by a subset of Leinster fans when they're not lighting the place on fire.

Although Bent must have had a good experience overall, the shaky start was kidneys doing. Kirchner wasn’t disliked as far as I remember.

Buer

Kirchner got a serious amount of grief despite being the consummate professional.

salmocab

Buer wrote: »

Kirchner got a serious amount of grief despite being the consummate professional.

Really? I always liked him thought he always done a good job.

Clegg

I don't remember Te'o getting much criticism tbh. He was actually one of our better players in his second season. Gopperth got the most abuse of anyone.

Former Former

salmocab wrote: »

Although Bent must have had a good experience overall, the shaky start was kidneys doing. Kirchner wasn’t disliked as far as I remember.

Kidney didn't make people hate Bent and he certainly didn't make people keep that opinion long after Bent had proved himself a very good signing.

Kirchner was very unpopular among Leinster fans on boards.ie.

salmocab

Former Former wrote: »

Kidney didn't make people hate Bent and he certainly didn't make people keep that opinion long after Bent had proved himself a very good signing.

Kirchner was very unpopular among Leinster fans on boards.ie.

Kidney put who was brought into Leinster as a backup prop straight into an Ireland jersey, he could never have lived up to that. Bent was a good signing for Leinster and continues to deliver.

irishbucsfan

Ireland had a crisis at prop and Bent actually did well against South Africa. People just wanted another stick to beat Kidney with. People who came away hating Bent for it were ultimately showed up anyway.

It’s all just more evidence that more often than not, fans haven’t a clue what they’re on about

DelMcG

I think Tomane is likely to fall into the Kirchner bracket rather than the Tuqiri bracket, in that he's grand but that's about it. He's a Pro14 standard player based on his showings to date, nothing more, nothing less.

He was energetic last night but spent an awful lot of time out on the wing when he needed to be in the middle of the park, showing for the ball. His run & kick were the highlight of his performance and the kick in particular showed good awareness of where other players were when a lot of wingers would kick straight & hope for a favourable bounce. For a big lad, though, he's an awful tackler. He just seems to push lads back with his palms, rarely takes them to ground and when he does, it's often because he's already been decked himself so he acts like a speed bump. His injury didn't help matters, coming when it did just as he was showing a bit of form, but he seems to be back to square one somewhat and with nearly half his contract up, I haven't seen anything from him to justify an extension, such as Fardy got.

Richie_Rich89

DelMcG wrote: »

I think Tomane is likely to fall into the Kirchner bracket rather than the Tuqiri bracket, in that he's grand but that's about it. He's a Pro14 standard player based on his showings to date, nothing more, nothing less.

He was energetic last night but spent an awful lot of time out on the wing when he needed to be in the middle of the park, showing for the ball. His run & kick were the highlight of his performance and the kick in particular showed good awareness of where other players were when a lot of wingers would kick straight & hope for a favourable bounce. For a big lad, though, he's an awful tackler. He just seems to push lads back with his palms, rarely takes them to ground and when he does, it's often because he's already been decked himself so he acts like a speed bump. His injury didn't help matters, coming when it did just as he was showing a bit of form, but he seems to be back to square one somewhat and with nearly half his contract up, I haven't seen anything from him to justify an extension, such as Fardy got.

Tomane was useful, but I thought quite a lot of the things he did were more the type of thing you'd see from a winger than a centre. The excellent dummy line was the kind you'd bring a physical winger in off his wing to run. But, yeah, good performance by Tomane.

I have to say I was disappointed to see O'Brien kept on the bench for the entire game. He's been very assured whenever he's got a run out. Tomane gets given all the warm ups and 10 competitive games to find his feet, and yet Jimmy O'Brien doesn't even get a look in when he's performed excellently in very restricted opportunities. The inequity is troubling. Where would Joe Tomane be now if his previous clubs had bought in an established player to play ahead of him when he was at JOB's stage of development? The Tomane signing doesn't look as if it's going to make the difference between winning and losing at this level, but it does stifle development.

DelMcG

Inclined to agree. There are plenty of occasions when bringing in an import promotes development rather than stifles it: Phil would have been a big help to Johnny, Rocky saw Seanie through his development, Isa pretty much helped every single young back at the province in one way or another. Even now, I think Scott Fardy has brought Ross Molony on a level & will probably offer similar support next season to Jack Dunne, Oisin Dowling & even Josh Murphy if they go down that road again (which I think they should).

Tomane, for all his strengths and weaknesses, just doesn't strike me as that kind of mentor figure. I'm not saying he's just in it for number one or just here to collect a cheque but he's not a leader on the field & that usually means he's not one on the training paddock either. We have a good crop of young centres and wingers coming up the rails at the moment and next season should be an opportunity for some of them to get decent game time, with the first half of the season pretty much dominated by the World Cup & its aftermath. I'd hate to think that some promising players like Jimmy O'Brien, Tommy O'Brien, Gavin Mullin or Hugo Keenan will find their route to the next level blocked by a player who will be gone within the next 14 months.

stephen_n

DelMcG wrote: »

I think Tomane is likely to fall into the Kirchner bracket rather than the Tuqiri bracket, in that he's grand but that's about it. He's a Pro14 standard player based on his showings to date, nothing more, nothing less.

He was energetic last night but spent an awful lot of time out on the wing when he needed to be in the middle of the park, showing for the ball. His run & kick were the highlight of his performance and the kick in particular showed good awareness of where other players were when a lot of wingers would kick straight & hope for a favourable bounce. For a big lad, though, he's an awful tackler. He just seems to push lads back with his palms, rarely takes them to ground and when he does, it's often because he's already been decked himself so he acts like a speed bump. His injury didn't help matters, coming when it did just as he was showing a bit of form, but he seems to be back to square one somewhat and with nearly half his contract up, I haven't seen anything from him to justify an extension, such as Fardy got.

The criticism of him appearing on the wing is unfair, I see this as part of the problem. That’s systemic, both COB and ROL show up there throughout games. It’s not accidental or by a choice he’s making. It seems to be quite common in other teams too, you’ll notice Chris Farrel being the widest man for Munster in games too.

Faugheen

stephen_n wrote: »

The criticism of him appearing on the wing is unfair, I see this as part of the problem. That’s systemic, both COB and ROL show up there throughout games. It’s not accidental or by a choice he’s making. It seems to be quite common in other teams too, you’ll notice Chris Farrel being the widest man for Munster in games too.

But none of those lads are foreign, so it's ok.

The criticism for Tomane gets more ridiculous every week, with a lot of it fuelled by that absolute spoofer Fitzgerald.

Shefwedfan

Clegg wrote: »

I don't remember Te'o getting much criticism tbh. He was actually one of our better players in his second season. Gopperth got the most abuse of anyone.

Te’o got similar to Tomane, so did Kirchner....

Gopperth was a victim of the MOC era more than anything

Tomane abuse just seems to be pure gobs***s to be honest, I would include Luke in that statement.

Shefwedfan

DelMcG wrote: »

Inclined to agree. There are plenty of occasions when bringing in an import promotes development rather than stifles it: Phil would have been a big help to Johnny, Rocky saw Seanie through his development, Isa pretty much helped every single young back at the province in one way or another. Even now, I think Scott Fardy has brought Ross Molony on a level & will probably offer similar support next season to Jack Dunne, Oisin Dowling & even Josh Murphy if they go down that road again (which I think they should).

Tomane, for all his strengths and weaknesses, just doesn't strike me as that kind of mentor figure. I'm not saying he's just in it for number one or just here to collect a cheque but he's not a leader on the field & that usually means he's not one on the training paddock either. We have a good crop of young centres and wingers coming up the rails at the moment and next season should be an opportunity for some of them to get decent game time, with the first half of the season pretty much dominated by the World Cup & its aftermath. I'd hate to think that some promising players like Jimmy O'Brien, Tommy O'Brien, Gavin Mullin or Hugo Keenan will find their route to the next level blocked by a player who will be gone within the next 14 months.

You have no idea what Tomane is like, simple as that. So why do you think he doesn’t help on the training? How can you tell what he is like off the pitch?

Leinster would be a lot poorer without some of the players who moved here.

Personally I would hate to see young players not getting the chance to train and learn from other nations based on idiots in the crowd

Why would Tomane recommend Leinster to other players the way some “fans” are carrying on

leakyboots

How in the name of Jebus can you tell that Fardy has brought Ross Molony on a level and will offer similar to young guns coming through? And then tell that Tomane isn't doing this? Genuinely curious, what's your evidence?

Adam Byrne's return to form is down to his own hard work but Molony's is Fardy's influence?

DelMcG

Gopperth got it (extremely unfairly) in the neck as he was seen as Matty's boy and as a deliberate roadblock to Madigan's progress. Also, he was basically the avatar for MOC's low risk, low effort brand of hoof ball. He was an excellent player for Newcastle and has shown in his time at Wasps that he is still an excellent player. He just landed at exactly the wrong time with exactly the wrong coach, preaching exactly the wrong philosophy. The irony around it all was that he was seen as MOC's pet player yet he was signed by Joe just before he took the Ireland job.

Never understood the Te'o abuse either. He did well when he came in, especially after the arm break and for a guy who hadn't played much union, I thought he performed above expectations, especially in a team going through a significant period of transition.

Shefwedfan

leakyboots wrote: »

How in the name of Jebus can you tell that Fardy has brought Ross Molony on a level and will offer similar to young guns coming through? And then tell that Tomane isn't doing this? Genuinely curious, what's your evidence?

Adam Byrne's return to form is down to his own hard work but Molony's is Fardy's influence?

He/she squints at the tv and can tell

Burkie1203

DelMcG wrote: »

I'd hate to think that some promising players like Jimmy O'Brien, Tommy O'Brien, Gavin Mullin or Hugo Keenan will find their route to the next level blocked by a player who will be gone within the next 14 months.

Daly, D Kearney, A Byrne, Larmour, McFadden, RoL, Ringrose all came thru when Isa & Kirchner were there. Tomane will not be blocking anyone

Leo Cullen spoke on Friday about the importance of not having a Leinster only squad, how a few guys from different cultures helps the squad develop.

Former Former

Ross Molony has regressed massively since Fardy arrived. Absolute best case is that he hasn't progressed.

There is no basis to claim that Fardy has brought anyone on.

This is a common claim for foreigners that people like and it's usually nonsense. Pienaar was the epitome of this. When they don't like the foreigner, then he's blocking development of young guys. That's usually bollocks too.

irishbucsfan

Molony regressed before Fardy arrived. A good bit before. He had a minor resurgence after if anything. But he hasn’t exactly been turned into an elite player.

Burkie1203

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Tomane was useful, but I thought quite a lot of the things he did were more the type of thing you'd see from a winger than a centre. The excellent dummy line was the kind you'd bring a physical winger in off his wing to run. But, yeah, good performance by Tomane.

I have to say I was disappointed to see O'Brien kept on the bench for the entire game. He's been very assured whenever he's got a run out. Tomane gets given all the warm ups and 10 competitive games to find his feet, and yet Jimmy O'Brien doesn't even get a look in when he's performed excellently in very restricted opportunities. The inequity is troubling. Where would Joe Tomane be now if his previous clubs had bought in an established player to play ahead of him when he was at JOB's stage of development? The Tomane signing doesn't look as if it's going to make the difference between winning and losing at this level, but it does stifle development.

Interesting remark by Cullen about the importance of having a small number if players from beyond the Leinster system

https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/demand-for-players-an-amazing-reflection-on-leinster-cullen-37988411.html

Shefwedfan

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Leo Cullen spoke on Friday about the importance of not having a Leinster only squad, how a few guys from different cultures helps the squad develop.

This is basic stuff and I have no idea how people do not understand it.



Even talk to BOD and he will tell you the influence Isa had on him. Other players as well.



Not sure why the fan base cannot understand it, it is fairly simple. Talk to Munster and they will say what a difference a few players made to the skills of the home grown players.

Dravokivich

It goes without saying really. You cant expect to expand, without taking the opportunity to have someone come in with experiences of different systems.

CatFromHue

Yeah a Monorail is more of a....Shelbyville thing

Richie_Rich89

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Interesting remark by Cullen about the importance of having a small number if players from beyond the Leinster system

https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/demand-for-players-an-amazing-reflection-on-leinster-cullen-37988411.html

It's obviously a plus point that players coming from a different way of doing things bring a new perspective. But surely you must agree that there's a point at which you can have too many signings? The positive of having people who see or do things slightly differently gets outweighed by the negative of emergent players being denied gametime.

Conor O'Brien would never have come through if Tomane hadn't got injured. Bear that in mind when you're lauding the Tomane signing. You have to accept the drawbacks that come with these moves as well.

Interested Observer

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Interesting remark by Cullen about the importance of having a small number if players from beyond the Leinster system

https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/demand-for-players-an-amazing-reflection-on-leinster-cullen-37988411.html

Sure what does he know, posters here obviously know better.

Burkie1203

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

It's obviously a plus point that players coming from a different way of doing things bring a new perspective. But surely you must agree that there's a point at which you can have too many signings? The positive of having people who see or do things slightly differently gets outweighed by the negative of emergent players being denied gametime.

Conor O'Brien would never have come through if Tomane hadn't got injured. Bear that in mind when you're lauding the Tomane signing. You have to accept the drawbacks that come with these moves as well.

Lowe
Tomane
JGP
Fardy

Bent
Henshaw
Cronin

7 Out of a squad of 57?



Last year Heaslip, Strauss, Isa retired
Jordi moved North
Carbery moved south

Tomane was the one and only signing.


I think COB has not been held back by Tomane at all. He made his debut last season before Tomane was signed and made a further 2 or 3 appearances last season too.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1114897732982968320?s=19