Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

KH25

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Ferg cited

That’s his season more than likely over so.

Squatter

KH25 wrote: »

That’s his season more than likely over so.

Irish Times reports says from 6 weeks to two years if found guilty.

"The low end suspension under Law 9.12 – “striking with the head” – starts at six up to 10 weeks with the top end anywhere from 16 to 104 weeks.

Any ban will rule McFadden out of the Champions Cup final against Saracens on May 11th."

Squidgy Black

Anyone else slightly concerned about the number of players we've lost over the last couple of seasons? I know we've still got pretty decent strength in depth but we lost 6 senior players last year + 2 squad players, and then another 7 this year without any post RWC retirements.

I know we've a decent group coming through from the academy, but still a lot of experience outside of the international players gone for the Pro14 squad.

salmocab

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Anyone else slightly concerned about the number of players we've lost over the last couple of seasons? I know we've still got pretty decent strength in depth but we lost 6 senior players last year + 2 squad players, and then another 7 this year without any post RWC retirements.

I know we've a decent group coming through from the academy, but still a lot of experience outside of the international players gone for the Pro14 squad.

I think nucifora is working some through but the talent coming through is unbelievable at the moment and most of the moves are the mid tier players that are Pro14 standard whose game time is going to go to younger soon to be better talent.

BonnieSituation

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Anyone else slightly concerned about the number of players we've lost over the last couple of seasons? I know we've still got pretty decent strength in depth but we lost 6 senior players last year + 2 squad players, and then another 7 this year without any post RWC retirements.

I know we've a decent group coming through from the academy, but still a lot of experience outside of the international players gone for the Pro14 squad.

A chap in work pretty much said the above to me today.

I'm thinking that they're taking advantage of the RWC surely. Loads of players missing and no choice but to be using younger players. Probably best to hang your hat on them going forward. Especially seeing as all the other teams will be in a similar boat in the Pro14.

Exclamation Marc

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Anyone else slightly concerned about the number of players we've lost over the last couple of seasons? I know we've still got pretty decent strength in depth but we lost 6 senior players last year + 2 squad players, and then another 7 this year without any post RWC retirements.

I know we've a decent group coming through from the academy, but still a lot of experience outside of the international players gone for the Pro14 squad.

I'm not worried much about the talent side to be honest but I'm getting a bit concerned about the experience. You think of recent years when you had Jennings, McLoughlin, Cullen, Isa, Ross and a few others post International career playing alongside the younger players and that depth of experience has dwindled. There's not as many there to pull the young players up when its not going to plan. Ferg is probably the closest to it now.

Even when Jordi was in his final year, he'd miss out on Ireland selection and be popping up in Pro14 games.

errlloyd

I think we're gonna see that wind down with Ruddock, Cronin, Toner, Healy, Jonny etc. Bod played more pro12 games in his final season than, he'd played for years iirc

Rigor Mortis

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

I'm not worried much about the talent side to be honest but I'm getting a bit concerned about the experience.

We have plenty of experience, but to allow the talent to emerge you have to have space. Of the players leaving in the last two years, the only ones i have a serious issue losing are McGrath (own choice), Murphy (own choice) and Carberry and the last wasnt a loss of experience but a loss of talent. McGraths loss was inevitable and Murphys was just a question of unfortunate timing.

Buer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Anyone else slightly concerned about the number of players we've lost over the last couple of seasons? I know we've still got pretty decent strength in depth but we lost 6 senior players last year + 2 squad players, and then another 7 this year without any post RWC retirements.

I said at the start of the season that the squad is going to regress. Last season was our peak and, if we manage to win silverware again this season, it will be through sheer determination, a bit of luck and hanging on by our fingernails. Last season saw the departure of Murphy, Nacewa, Carbery, Heaslip and Strauss. Aside from Carbery, that is a massive void in the leadership of the squad behind the scenes. All of the others had captained Leinster.

We're going to lose a few more experienced professionals this season with Reid, Kearney, McGrath and SOB all leaving. I think it's safe to say that Leinster will be on a downward curve after this year. I don't think any side can maintain performances with that loss of experience and talent particularly given the injury profiles of a number of the guys who are remaining.

Winter is coming.

Shefwedfan

Buer wrote: »

I said at the start of the season that the squad is going to regress. Last season was our peak and, if we manage to win silverware again this season, it will be through sheer determination, a bit of luck and hanging on by our fingernails. Last season saw the departure of Murphy, Nacewa, Carbery, Heaslip and Strauss. Aside from Carbery, that is a massive void in the leadership of the squad behind the scenes. All of the others had captained Leinster.

We're going to lose a few more experienced professionals this season with Reid, Kearney, McGrath and SOB all leaving. I think it's safe to say that Leinster will be on a downward curve after this year. I don't think any side can maintain performances with that loss of experience and talent particularly given the injury profiles of a number of the guys who are remaining.

Winter is coming.

Leinster do not have the money that a Saracens have, not even the IRFU could take the losses that Saracens take on a regular basis.



Also the main goal of Leinster is to provide players to Ireland, part of this is bringing young players up to the first team and training them so they can move up to International.



Leinster are always going to have period when the squad is in flux. When a lot of older players retire or move on and young players are promoted. The challange is to keep the team competitive during these period.



I think if we can win this season Henieken cup then I would not expect us to win next season

arsebiscuits1

Buer wrote: »

I said at the start of the season that the squad is going to regress. Last season was our peak and, if we manage to win silverware again this season, it will be through sheer determination, a bit of luck and hanging on by our fingernails. Last season saw the departure of Murphy, Nacewa, Carbery, Heaslip and Strauss. Aside from Carbery, that is a massive void in the leadership of the squad behind the scenes. All of the others had captained Leinster.

We're going to lose a few more experienced professionals this season with Reid, Kearney, McGrath and SOB all leaving. I think it's safe to say that Leinster will be on a downward curve after this year. I don't think any side can maintain performances with that loss of experience and talent particularly given the injury profiles of a number of the guys who are remaining.

Winter is coming.

I think that is a little bit too bleak.

Leinster has always had a culture of young lads stepping up when it mattered.

The groans when 23 year old Sexton had to take to the field against Munster when Felipe went off still rings in my ears.

Experience is unquantifiable and can't be overstated how important it is. I agree that those we are losing does not look good and may have a knock on affect.

But for those who we are losing, we have a more than capable replacement and 2 more academy lads waiting in the wings ready to seize their opportunity.

One might argue they don't have the match minutes to really know how to play smart when the chips are down.

I argue that they are born of a winning culture and real rugby intellect and possess all of the features to win any game in any situation

salmocab

Buer wrote: »

I said at the start of the season that the squad is going to regress. Last season was our peak and, if we manage to win silverware again this season, it will be through sheer determination, a bit of luck and hanging on by our fingernails. Last season saw the departure of Murphy, Nacewa, Carbery, Heaslip and Strauss. Aside from Carbery, that is a massive void in the leadership of the squad behind the scenes. All of the others had captained Leinster.

We're going to lose a few more experienced professionals this season with Reid, Kearney, McGrath and SOB all leaving. I think it's safe to say that Leinster will be on a downward curve after this year. I don't think any side can maintain performances with that loss of experience and talent particularly given the injury profiles of a number of the guys who are remaining.

Winter is coming.

Ah with the talent that’s coming through it won’t be winter more a bit nippy spring

Jump_In_Jack

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

We have plenty of experience, but to allow the talent to emerge you have to have space. Of the players leaving in the last two years, the only ones i have a serious issue losing are McGrath (own choice), Murphy (own choice) and Carberry (own choice) and the last wasnt a loss of experience but a loss of talent. McGraths loss was inevitable and Murphys was just a question of unfortunate timing.

FYP
It was certainly Carbery's choice to leave Leinster, nobody put a gun to his head.
It is hard to argue with the logic of the move now seeing the amount of game-time he has been given at Munster, and reportedly he will be fit to play out the Pro14 knockouts as first choice outhalf so I'm sure Irish fans would also appreciate that come September.

molloyjh

I think our depth may become an issue next season with the losses we're experiencing. But if you look at the first string side I'm not sure theres a whole lot in it. Our HEC side for last season would have been something like:

Healy Cronin Furlong
Toner Ryan
Ruddock Conan Leavy

McGrath Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Nacewa Kearney Larmour

Tracy, McGrath, Porter, Fardy, Murphy, JGP, Carbery, McFadden

Our HEC side for next season should be something like:

Healy Cronin Furlong
Toner Ryan
Ruddock Conan VDF

McGrath Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Lowe Kearney Larmour

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Fardy, Deegan, JGP, Byrne, ROL

As long as guys like Ryan and Ringrose develop as leaders we shouldn't be too badly off as long as we dont suffer too many injuries. Which you'd say about the vast majority of sides in Europe, if not every European side. Remember how comprehensively we beat Saracens last season when they were missing a few and had key player off form.

PMC83

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

FYP
It was certainly Carbery's choice to leave Leinster, nobody put a gun to his head.
It is hard to argue with the logic of the move now seeing the amount of game-time he has been given at Munster, and reportedly he will be fit to play out the Pro14 knockouts as first choice outhalf so I'm sure Irish fans would also appreciate that come September.

When the rumours of Carbery's move first surfaced he appeared on OTB and stated how happy he was at Leinster and so on and so on.
A short while later he was gone. It was his own decision at the end of the day, and while no one put a gun to his head it seems highly likely there were some whispers in his ear re world cup. Theres no way the entire move was off his own back.

Rigor Mortis

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

FYP
It was certainly Carbery's choice to leave Leinster, nobody put a gun to his head.
It is hard to argue with the logic of the move now seeing the amount of game-time he has been given at Munster, and reportedly he will be fit to play out the Pro14 knockouts as first choice outhalf so I'm sure Irish fans would also appreciate that come September.

The correct fix would be to say own instigation for the first two and own choice for Carberry. Im not against the move and never have been despite the obvious loss for leinster, but Carberry's choice was clearly influenced by external actors

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

I think our depth may become an issue next season with the losses we're experiencing. But if you look at the first string side I'm not sure theres a whole lot in it. Our HEC side for last season would have been something like:

Healy Cronin Furlong
Toner Ryan
Ruddock Conan Leavy

McGrath Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Nacewa Kearney Larmour

Tracy, McGrath, Porter, Fardy, Murphy, JGP, Carbery, McFadden

Our HEC side for next season should be something like:

Healy Cronin Furlong
Toner Ryan
Ruddock Conan VDF

McGrath Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Lowe Kearney Larmour

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Fardy, Deegan, JGP, Byrne, ROL

As long as guys like Ryan and Ringrose develop as leaders we shouldn't be too badly off as long as we dont suffer too many injuries. Which you'd say about the vast majority of sides in Europe, if not every European side. Remember how comprehensively we beat Saracens last season when they were missing a few and had key player off form.

molloyjh wrote: »

I think our depth may become an issue next season with the losses we're experiencing. But if you look at the first string side I'm not sure theres a whole lot in it. Our HEC side for last season would have been something like:

Healy Cronin Furlong
Toner Ryan
Ruddock Conan Leavy

McGrath Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Nacewa Kearney Larmour

Tracy, McGrath, Porter, Fardy, Murphy, JGP, Carbery, McFadden

Our HEC side for next season should be something like:

Healy Cronin Furlong
Toner Ryan
Ruddock Conan VDF

McGrath Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Lowe Kearney Larmour

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Fardy, Deegan, JGP, Byrne, ROL

As long as guys like Ryan and Ringrose develop as leaders we shouldn't be too badly off as long as we dont suffer too many injuries. Which you'd say about the vast majority of sides in Europe, if not every European side. Remember how comprehensively we beat Saracens last season when they were missing a few and had key player off form.

Yeah when you look at the team we will have, it’s nowhere near as drastic a step down in quality as there was previously. When we were losing the likes of BOD and Leo. The age profile of the squad is quite well balanced at the moment. It helps of course having the likes of Ryan, Larmour, Ringrose and Porter already so experienced at such a young age.

I know for a fact that players in the Leinster camp are of the belief that Carbery was put under significant pressure to move on. Haven't heard the same about McGrath, but at the time I don't think Carbery had any desire to go.

He's obviously settled in now but I think his Ireland career was dangled a fair bit truth be told.

molloyjh

And if you look at the next level down from that starting team you've got guys like Dooley, Bryan Byrne, Bent, Molony, Josh Murphy, Doris, Tomane, Daly, Dave K, McFadden and Adam Byrne. All of these have a decent amount of experience, some have really good experience at HEC level or even international level. There are a few areas that we'll be weaker for sure. But we'll still be in a very good place.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

I know for a fact that players in the Leinster camp are of the belief that Carbery was put under significant pressure to move on. Haven't heard the same about McGrath, but at the time I don't think Carbery had any desire to go.

He's obviously settled in now but I think his Ireland career was dangled a fair bit truth be told.

I think that's totally fine myself tbh. It would be crazy to have (who were at the time) the 3 10s for Ireland all playing at the same province. We have to take the rough with the smooth when it comes to the IRFU. The overall benefits far outweigh the negatives.

Richie_Rich89

I don't think lack of experience is that much of a concern considering how good Lancaster is at getting the young players to perform.

Interested Observer

Buer wrote: »

I said at the start of the season that the squad is going to regress. Last season was our peak and, if we manage to win silverware again this season, it will be through sheer determination, a bit of luck and hanging on by our fingernails.

Away with this, you sound like a Munster supporter. Leinster of this season have some of the best players and coaches in Europe and one of the best academies in the world.

Buer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I think that is a little bit too bleak.

Leinster has always had a culture of young lads stepping up when it mattered.

Wasn't meant to be bleak just that people shouldn't expect us to be viewed as top dogs for a few years. All good things pass. We'll come again and the crop of players coming through up front is excellent so hopefully we'll be in the mix again within the next few years but you don't lose that level of experience and winning culture without taking a hit on the field.

It's remarkable that we've been as successful as we have been this season so far but I think something has to be said about the standard of opposition, particularly in the Pro14 where it has been one of the poorest seasons in memory.

dub_skav

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I don't think lack of experience is that much of a concern considering how good Lancaster is at getting the young players to perform.

My biggest concern is that the guys who are young this year, will be a year older next year and will, therefore, be rubbish.

It will be interesting to see how Stu manages that one

Rigor Mortis

I think next season will see us (and all the Pro14 struggle a bit in Europe) unless we get a very good draw. Teams like ourselves, Munster and Glasgow will lose to many players to the WC
However, in that, there will be more younger players blooded. We will be grand in the Pro14. The experience gained by the kids will stand us over the next three years of the WC cycle.

Buer

Interested Observer wrote: »

Away with this, you sound like a Munster supporter. Leinster of this season have some of the best players and coaches in Europe and one of the best academies in the world.

Easy on the low blows.

They've also lost some exceptional players and leaders. It's far from unreasonable to think performances this season wouldn't be as high a standard as last season and that more of those key players are going to be departing. I'm sure the exact same conversations were being had the when Nacewa, BOD, Cullena and Jennings were coming to the end.

Leinster will never be far from silverware with their production line but it's impossible to have ready made European starters coming out of the academy in numbers each season. It's hugely impressive that they're where they are right now given the loss of personnel along with injuries.

Jump_In_Jack

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

The correct fix would be to say own instigation for the first two and own choice for Carberry. Im not against the move and never have been despite the obvious loss for leinster, but Carberry's choice was clearly influenced by external actors

Murphy's move, McGrath's move, and Marty Moore's move also for that matter were all definitely due to their desire to get regular game-time, starting in their preferred position consistently for an Irish province, with a view to enhancing their chances of selection for the Irish team, the exact same reasoning as for Carbery's move to Munster.

I think it stands to reason that Murphy, McGrath and Moore would have asked the people responsible for selecting the Irish team what the criteria was for gaining favour for selection, and that they then acted on that information by moving to another province for regular game-time in their preferred position.

Murphy has commented in recent articles that he is very happy to be playing a whole season at 7 so that he can put his hand up for that specific position for the world cup, as opposed to being a jack of all trades across the backrow (while also having that card in the back pocket) and perhaps losing out in a straight shootout for the number 7 starting spot due to not playing there regularly enough.

I don't see any difference between Carbery's move to Munster and any of the 3 players opting to move to Ulster.

If you could call it a difference, perhaps you could say that Carbery was in favour and being told that he would be dropped out of selection if he didn't get regular game-time somewhere, whereas the other 3 mentioned above were already out of favour when they decided to move.
However the reasoning was the same, i.e. get regular game-time in your desired position for one of the provinces.

Rigor Mortis

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Murphy's move, McGrath's move, and Marty Moore's move also for that matter were all definitely due to their desire to get regular game-time, starting in their preferred position consistently for an Irish province, with a view to enhancing their chances of selection for the Irish team, the exact same reasoning as for Carbery's move to Munster.

However the reasoning was the same, i.e. get regular game-time in your desired position for one of the provinces.

I think it is a fairly widely accepted view that
1. Carbery was not looking for a move
2. Carbery was happy with his position in the Leinster squad
3. Carbery was convinced by people outside of Leinster that it was in his interests to go elsewhere.

I've already said i have no problem with this, but it is disingenuous to imply that the four cases are the same

Dubinusa

Squad depth is a concern. The age factor of some key lads will be a factor. We have lost the guts of a great team these past 2 years. I agree with the reasons for the lads to transfer and the retirees obviously wanted to retire. Looking at the amount of talent that has left.
Jack McGrath, Jordi, Reid, ,Dom Ryan, Carbury, Heaslip, Strauss, Isa. That's the guts of a starting xv. It's insane that Leinster lose these lads and are still a top side.
I think that we're going to struggle a little over the next couple of seasons.
Does anyone know who has been promoted from the academy?

salmocab

Dubinusa wrote: »

Squad depth is a concern. The age factor of some key lads will be a factor. We have lost the guts of a great team these past 2 years. I agree with the reasons for the lads to transfer and the retirees obviously wanted to retire. Looking at the amount of talent that has left.
Jack McGrath, Jordi, Reid, ,Dom Ryan, Carbury, Heaslip, Strauss, Isa. That's the guts of a starting xv. It's insane that Leinster lose these lads and are still a top side.
I think that we're going to struggle a little over the next couple of seasons.
Does anyone know who has been promoted from the academy?

Ah none of those apart from Heaslip and Isa were starters when they finished up. Isa was replaced by Lowe effectively and Heaslip by Conan. We hardly missed a beat on either. I think Jordi was a loss as whilst not a guaranteed starter he was always close and covered multiple positions. The others were almost finished or mid level players.