Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

Still not sure how good Munster are. Even with the addition of Beirne I don't think they have the pack to match Leinster's or to stop a repeat of the Racing game.

I don't hugely rate their front row, certainly wouldn't compare it to Healy, Cronin, Furlong at all.

Things get a little tighter in the second row. Beirne / Klyne is a strong partnership. I personally wouldn't have them on par with Ryan / Toner / Fardy but it's a narrow enough gap.

Things get quite spicy in the back row. SOB being fit would change the dynamic but POM, Cloete and Stander is a fine back row - as good as anything in the league and Botha on the bench gives them a bit of dog after 60 minutes.

I suspect we'll have something like Leavy, VDF Ruddock / Conan as our back row which is equally a very strong unit and probably superior from a breakdown perspective.

Leinster have the stronger backline imo. Murray won't be back so advantage Leinster at 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15. People will have different opinions about who the best wingers are - but I'm not sure there is much debate about the halves, mid field and full back.

Larbre34

Euro jersey is an echo of the unicorn jizz kit. Only this one looks like a sleet shower on a dark January RDS night.

Richie_Rich89

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd like to see us put Edinburgh to the sword this weekend. They are a decent team with a solid pack and made the play offs last season.

We've been a little bit off the pace so far and last weekends performance whilst a step up had as much to do with Dragons being a relatively poor side as it did with us being back to near our best.

At times last season I'd have described us as relentless and if we can really turn over this Edinburgh side it will put us in a good place with some critical fixtures coming up.

Not sure what type of team we'll be sending to Connacht but Munster home is a must win against what is likely to be a title contender team in the pro14 and Europe.

Big couple of weeks coming up, Seasons really getting going now.

It's a home game against a conference rival team who made the play-offs last year. I think they should go near full strength for this and then put out the seconds if necessary v Connacht.

Think I'd go something like:

1. Cian Healy
2. James Tracy
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Devin Toner
5. Scott Fardy
6. Rhys Ruddock
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Jack Conan
9. Luke McGrath
10. Ross Byrne
11. James Lowe
12. Conor O'Brien
13. Garry Ringrose
14. Fergus McFadden
15. Robert Kearney

16. Bryan Byrne
17. Ed Byrne
18. Andrew Porter
19. Ross Molony
20. Dan Leavy
21. Hugh O'Sullivan
22. Noel Reid
23. Rory O'Loughlin

prawnsambo

Larbre34 wrote: »

Euro jersey is an echo of the unicorn jizz kit. Only this one looks like a sleet shower on a dark January RDS night.

I agree on the dark January night. But the stars are much more visible, so it's not sleeting.

Heymans

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't hugely rate their front row, certainly wouldn't compare it to Healy, Cronin, Furlong at all.

Things get a little tighter in the second row. Beirne / Klyne is a strong partnership. I personally wouldn't have them on par with Ryan / Toner / Fardy but it's a narrow enough gap.

Things get quite spicy in the back row. SOB being fit would change the dynamic but POM, Cloete and Stander is a fine back row - as good as anything in the league and Botha on the bench gives them a bit of dog after 60 minutes.

I suspect we'll have something like Leavy, VDF Ruddock / Conan as our back row which is equally a very strong unit and probably superior from a breakdown perspective.

Leinster have the stronger backline imo. Murray won't be back so advantage Leinster at 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15. People will have different opinions about who the best wingers are - but I'm not sure there is much debate about the halves, mid field and full back.

Ringrose is still prone to defensive errors. I would say any team that targets our outer midfield might reap dividends if they put their mind to exposing him. Not that he isn't our number 1 outside centre - he just tends to go to sleep and leave either outside or inside him in his channel open. Williams try on the weekend was a good example of this.

Kleyn is a potential Ireland world cup starter. Very strong and gives the bit of grunt we need with lightweighhts like Beirne Ryan in the second row. Not that they aren't proficient at their work - they're just light on experience, height and grunt of international class second rows.

Funnily enough i think the result will all centre around whether Johnny plays. If he plays I think we will win - if he doesn't I have question marks over our goal kicking ability if Ferg isn't playing and taking the close in ones.

Clegg

I think Kleyn will be lucky to make the world cup squad let alone travel as a potential starter. Henderson, Ryan and Toner are all proven to a much higher standard and the likes of Beirne and Dillane have that extra experience in the Ireland camp.

James Ryan is not light on grunt either. His frame isn't as filled out as other second rows, but he makes yards after contact all the time and has a fierce tackle.

Clegg

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't hugely rate their front row, certainly wouldn't compare it to Healy, Cronin, Furlong at all.

Things get a little tighter in the second row. Beirne / Klyne is a strong partnership. I personally wouldn't have them on par with Ryan / Toner / Fardy but it's a narrow enough gap.

Things get quite spicy in the back row. SOB being fit would change the dynamic but POM, Cloete and Stander is a fine back row - as good as anything in the league and Botha on the bench gives them a bit of dog after 60 minutes.

I suspect we'll have something like Leavy, VDF Ruddock / Conan as our back row which is equally a very strong unit and probably superior from a breakdown perspective.

Leinster have the stronger backline imo. Murray won't be back so advantage Leinster at 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15. People will have different opinions about who the best wingers are - but I'm not sure there is much debate about the halves, mid field and full back.

Leinster have beaten Munster in 4 of the last 5 matches. In those games I've felt that Munster's backrow has underperformed and that Leinster had them worked out. There's no doubting the individual quality of Stander, PoM et al, but different combinations of Leinster backrows have outperformed them in recent years. That's partially down to Leinster's front 5 being better and giving the backrow a greater platform, but Stander and PoM have just not been as good in red as they are in green.

jmn51927

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't hugely rate their front row, certainly wouldn't compare it to Healy, Cronin, Furlong at all.

Things get a little tighter in the second row. Beirne / Klyne is a strong partnership. I personally wouldn't have them on par with Ryan / Toner / Fardy but it's a narrow enough gap.

Things get quite spicy in the back row. SOB being fit would change the dynamic but POM, Cloete and Stander is a fine back row - as good as anything in the league and Botha on the bench gives them a bit of dog after 60 minutes.

I suspect we'll have something like Leavy, VDF Ruddock / Conan as our back row which is equally a very strong unit and probably superior from a breakdown perspective.

Leinster have the stronger backline imo. Murray won't be back so advantage Leinster at 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15. People will have different opinions about who the best wingers are - but I'm not sure there is much debate about the halves, mid field and full back.

Nonsense. If fit John Ryan is a dangerous scrummager, Dave Kilcoyne a powerful ball carrier and with Rhys Marshall(Best ball playing hooker in Ireland) and Niall Scannell in the hooker spots they have a solid front row, admittedly one not of leinsters quality but a good one nonetheless.
Saying that leinster back row is ‘superior’ to the Munster one is a joke. Especially the breakdown remark. Cloete is the one of the best jackals in Europe along with Beirne and that’s before you even account the work of O’Mahony and Stander in the jackal role. Need I remind you of Cj’s ruck contribution Vs the AB’s and O’Mahony in Australia? Pure Nonsense being spoken from a blinded bias disillusioned Leinster fan who is in a state of denial with his blue tinted glasses. It’s not coincidence Joe has stuck by O’Mahony and Stander during ireland’s best period of date. Open you eyes are realize what’s going on outside of D4

irishbucsfan

jmn51927 wrote: »

Nonsense. If fit John Ryan is a dangerous scrummager, Dave Kilcoyne a powerful ball carrier and with Rhys Marshall(Best ball playing hooker in Ireland) and Niall Scannell in the hooker spots they have a solid front row, admittedly one not of leinsters quality but a good one nonetheless.
Saying that leinster back row is ‘superior’ to the Munster one is a joke. Especially the breakdown remark. Cloete is the one of the best jackals in Europe along with Beirne and that’s before you even account the work of O’Mahony and Stander in the jackal role. Need I remind you of Cj’s ruck contribution Vs the AB’s and O’Mahony in Australia? Pure Nonsense being spoken from a blinded bias disillusioned Leinster fan who is in a state of denial with his blue tinted glasses. It’s not coincidence Joe has stuck by O’Mahony and Stander during ireland’s best period of date. Open you eyes are realize what’s going on outside of D4

Ireland’s best period to date coincided with a time where Ruddock, O’Brien, Leavy and Van Der Flier have all had periods of injury, some for quite a long time.

I’ve no idea what Ireland’s starting back row would be like with everyone fit.

And John Ryan and Dave Kilcoyne are good players but they are a ways behind Healy/Furlong who are Lions standard props. Munster have the upper hand at hooker, probably have two who would both start for Leinster.

Ryan/Fardy is in theory the best starting lock partnership in Europe though. They’re just both exceptional players. A very long time since Leinster have been superior in that department but it’s fairly clear cut now.

troyzer

Hoody isn't bad actually.

https://www.lifestylesports.com/ie/adult-leinster-european-hoody-2018-2019-55910122.html

slingerz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ireland’s best period to date coincided with a time where Ruddock, O’Brien, Leavy and Van Der Flier have all had periods of injury, some for quite a long time.

I’ve no idea what Ireland’s starting back row would be like with everyone fit.

And John Ryan and Dave Kilcoyne are good players but they are a ways behind Healy/Furlong who are Lions standard props. Munster have the upper hand at hooker, probably have two who would both start for Leinster.

Ryan/Fardy is in theory the best starting lock partnership in Europe though. They’re just both exceptional players. A very long time since Leinster have been superior in that department but it’s fairly clear cut now.

Tadhg Beirne has been the best second row in the PRO14 for the past 2 seasons. I wouldnt say it is clearcut. As a partnership Fardy & Ryan is a good one alright but Beirne for me is the standout second row

jmn51927

jmn51927 wrote: »

Nonsense. If fit John Ryan is a dangerous scrummager, Dave Kilcoyne a powerful ball carrier and with Rhys Marshall(Best ball playing hooker in Ireland) and Niall Scannell in the hooker spots they have a solid front row, admittedly one not of leinsters quality but a good one nonetheless.
Saying that leinster back row is ‘superior’ to the Munster one is a joke. Especially the breakdown remark. Cloete is the one of the best jackals in Europe along with Beirne and that’s before you even account the work of O’Mahony and Stander in the jackal role. Need I remind you of Cj’s ruck contribution Vs the AB’s and O’Mahony in Australia? Pure Nonsense being spoken from a blinded bias disillusioned Leinster fan who is in a state of denial with his blue tinted glasses. It’s not coincidence Joe has stuck by O’Mahony and Stander during ireland’s best period of date. Open you eyes are realize what’s going on outside of D4

Wow...!

The only thing you got right there is the disillusioned part. Leinster's inability to convert their talent pool into silverware last season has left me deeply disillusioned...!

I don't rate the Munster front row. All the qualities you mentioned are accurate, but whilst Kilcoyne is an effective carrier his set piece has always been weak. Ryan is an ok scrummager but I don't know if he even makes the Leinster bench at the moment.

I also didn't say the Leinster back row was superior, I do think they are superior at the breakdown. I also don't know how you think Cloete is one of the best Jackals in Europe when he's played 2 pool games in Europe.

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure how serious your post is so won't bother with the rest.

prawnsambo

jmn51927 wrote: »

Nonsense. If fit John Ryan is a dangerous scrummager, Dave Kilcoyne a powerful ball carrier and with Rhys Marshall(Best ball playing hooker in Ireland) and Niall Scannell in the hooker spots they have a solid front row, admittedly one not of leinsters quality but a good one nonetheless.
Saying that leinster back row is ‘superior’ to the Munster one is a joke. Especially the breakdown remark. Cloete is the one of the best jackals in Europe along with Beirne and that’s before you even account the work of O’Mahony and Stander in the jackal role. Need I remind you of Cj’s ruck contribution Vs the AB’s and O’Mahony in Australia? Pure Nonsense being spoken from a blinded bias disillusioned Leinster fan who is in a state of denial with his blue tinted glasses. It’s not coincidence Joe has stuck by O’Mahony and Stander during ireland’s best period of date. Open you eyes are realize what’s going on outside of D4

It's not exactly nonsense if by and large you agree with his assessment. I mean you've concluded your discussion on the front row by saying Munster's is not of Leinster's quality, he said that the backrow was 'probably' superior, but also that Munster's was as good as anything in the league and the only separation was possibly at the breakdown.

So you dismiss it all as nonsense and claim blue-tinted spectacles whilst largely agreeing despite a minor disagreement about breakdown work. Hyperbole much?

slingerz

slingerz wrote: »

Tadhg Beirne has been the best second row in the PRO14 for the past 2 seasons. I wouldnt say it is clearcut. As a partnership Fardy & Ryan is a good one alright but Beirne for me is the standout second row

I would say Fardy was the best second row in the pro14 last season personally, though had Beirne played in the Leinster pack who knows.

irishbucsfan

slingerz wrote: »

Tadhg Beirne has been the best second row in the PRO14 for the past 2 seasons. I wouldnt say it is clearcut. As a partnership Fardy & Ryan is a good one alright but Beirne for me is the standout second row

Certainly wasn’t the standout second row any time he played Leinster

Heymans

slingerz wrote: »

Tadhg Beirne has been the best second row in the PRO14 for the past 2 seasons. I wouldnt say it is clearcut. As a partnership Fardy & Ryan is a good one alright but Beirne for me is the standout second row

Agreed he's been the best second row in the loose in the Pro14 lasst 2 seasons but it isn't clearcut how good he is at lineout time a second rows bread and butter. Plus he lacks the bulk of a top class second row at international level. Let's wait and see how he performs in Europe first and then internationally if he gets the chance. A Jackalling second row isn't worth his salt if he can't do bread and butter basics of ball carrying and lineout.

Heymans

Heymans wrote: »

Agreed he's been the best second row in the loose in the Pro14 lasst 2 seasons but it isn't clearcut how good he is at lineout time a second rows bread and butter. Plus he lacks the bulk of a top class second row at international level. Let's wait and see how he performs in Europe first and then internationally if he gets the chance. A Jackalling second row isn't worth his salt if he can't do bread and butter basics of ball carrying and lineout.

Beirne is an excellent carrier. Scores tries and has good hands, it's far from a weakness.

I'm not sufficiently familiar with his overall set piece play to comment or rate.

Former Former

The question for Beirne is whether he can make the step up from Pro14 star to European/international level. Fardy, Ryan and Toner are proven at the highest levels of the game, Beirne simply is not. Jury out.

Heymans

Deleted User wrote: »

Beirne is an excellent carrier. Scores tries and has good hands, it's far from a weakness.

I'm not sufficiently familiar with his overall set piece play to comment or rate.

if he can't gain hard yards like the best I'd question his carrying ability. I've yet to see him regularly break the gain line with his carries. Hands are an added skill but not bread and butter.

Edit: I would add to that clearing out ability. IT's all the grunt work that second rows do that isn't seen that is important in gaining an edge in a match.

AdamD

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Certainly wasn’t the standout second row any time he played Leinster

Beirne absolutely destroyed us in the semi final 2 years ago

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

The question for Beirne is whether he can make the step up from Pro14 star to European/international level. Fardy, Ryan and Toner are proven at the highest levels of the game, Beirne simply is not. Jury out.

Yeah, this is it really. Great player, great dude, waiting to see where he slots in.

For Ireland’s sake I hope he’s the best available to us because Ryan is already looking like one of the best in Europe and that’d give us one of the best 2nd Rows in the 6 Nations

Heymans

Heymans wrote: »

if he can't gain hard yards like the best I'd question his carrying ability. I've yet to see him regularly break the gain line with his carries. Hands are an added skill but not bread and butter.

Meh, Toner doesn't break many tackles but he takes on awkward ball and always recycles. Ryan and Henderson will get you ground after contact but not every second row is that dynamic.

As I said, the only part of his game I'm not familiar with is his set piece, everything else I've seen looks top drawer.

FF is right though - he needs to start a few tier 1 international fixtures and then we'll know where he stands.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah, this is it really. Great player, great dude, waiting to see where he slots in.

For Ireland’s sake I hope he’s the best available to us because Ryan is already looking like one of the best in Europe and that’d give us one of the best 2nd Rows in the 6 Nations

Ryan's performance against the Saracens pack in the quarter final was one of the best displays last season in Europe from a second row. Off the charts stuff, think he got MOTM for it.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Ryan's performance against the Saracens pack in the quarter final was one of the best displays last season in Europe from a second row. Off the charts stuff, think he got MOTM for it.

Nah, Leavy got MOTM that day. Ryan was MOTM in the final, Fardy in the semi final.

Heymans

Deleted User wrote: »

Meh, Toner doesn't break many tackles but he takes on awkward ball and always recycles. Ryan and Henderson will get you ground after contact but not every second row is that dynamic.

As I said, the only part of his game I'm not familiar with is his set piece, everything else I've seen looks top drawer.

FF is right though - he needs to start a few tier 1 international fixtures and then we'll know where he stands.

But Toner is a top class international lineout operator - Beirne isn't. Anyway I am not comparing him with other IRish locks per se I am comparing him with other international class locks and seeing what they have in their armoury or tricks. He is abrasive and tough but he doesn't have the bulk for that to count like it would for Kleyn or Rettalick or Maestro

jmn51927

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't hugely rate their front row, certainly wouldn't compare it to Healy, Cronin, Furlong at all.

Things get a little tighter in the second row. Beirne / Klyne is a strong partnership. I personally wouldn't have them on par with Ryan / Toner / Fardy but it's a narrow enough gap.

Things get quite spicy in the back row. SOB being fit would change the dynamic but POM, Cloete and Stander is a fine back row - as good as anything in the league and Botha on the bench gives them a bit of dog after 60 minutes.

I suspect we'll have something like Leavy, VDF Ruddock / Conan as our back row which is equally a very strong unit and probably superior from a breakdown perspective.

Leinster have the stronger backline imo. Murray won't be back so advantage Leinster at 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15. People will have different opinions about who the best wingers are - but I'm not sure there is much debate about the halves, mid field and full back.

Nonsense. If fit John Ryan is a dangerous scrummager, Dave Kilcoyne a powerful ball carrier and with Rhys Marshall(Best ball playing hooker in Ireland) and Niall Scannell in the hooker spots they have a solid front row, admittedly one not of leinsters quality but a good one nonetheless.
Saying that leinster back row is ‘superior’ to the Munster one is a joke. Especially the breakdown remark. Cloete is the one of the best jackals in Europe along with Beirne and that’s before you even account the work of O’Mahony and Stander in the jackal role. Need I remind you of Cj’s ruck contribution Vs the AB’s and O’Mahony in Australia? Pure Nonsense being spoken from a blinded bias disillusioned Leinster fan who is in a state of denial with his blue tinted glasses. It’s not coincidence Joe has stuck by O’Mahony and Stander during ireland’s best period of date. Open you eyes are realize what’s going on outside of D4

molloyjh

Anyone else getting deja vu?

Clegg

Leinster won the Champions Cup with a backrow comprised of a 2nd choice blindside, 3rd choice openside and 2nd choice number 8.

Noone can stop the juggernaut.

jacothelad

Clegg wrote: »

Leinster won the Champions Cup with a backrow comprised of a 2nd choice blimdside, 3rd choice openside and 3nd choice number 8.

Noone can stop the juggernaut.

I doubt it. He lives in the U.S.A. these days. I don't know if he was ever in to rugby anyway though no one really cares......:D:D:D:D

https://www.allmusic.com/artist/peter-noone-mn0000263225/biography

Clegg

Noone but Android spell check.