Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

Interested Observer

Does JGP becoming IQ actually solve this problem or does he need to be an Irish citizen? Because he ain't going to be the latter. The competition rules just say 'non-European', what does that mean?

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

Does JGP becoming IQ actually solve this problem or does he need to be an Irish citizen? Because he ain't going to be the latter. The competition rules just say 'non-European', what does that mean?

He has to be a citizen.

awec

The problem will be solved next year because both Fardy and JGP are out of contract and a maximum of one of them will be renewed.

salmocab

Interested Observer wrote: »

Does JGP becoming IQ actually solve this problem or does he need to be an Irish citizen? Because he ain't going to be the latter. The competition rules just say 'non-European', what does that mean?

Apparently it does once he’s IQ so next year we’ll be good although I think Fardys contract is up at the end of the season but obviously we’ll be trying to hold onto him I’d assume.

swiwi_

Clegg wrote: »

Ruddock had another strong game. He's a surefire starter for next Friday. I'm delighted that he's started the season so well. He's making a huge push for international selection.

Our openside must be VdF. He's simply the best player in Ireland right now. He may not have the grunt of Leavy/SoB but his workrate is unmatchable and he's technically excellent at everything in the ruck.

Not sure what to do with SoB. At his best he's up there with the best players in the world. But he's not at peak level yet and the form of others is too good to ignore. I also think that his best work is done at the ruck and tackle. Conan is a better carrier than him now. Jack should be the starting 8. Dunno where this leaves Leavy who was superb last season but hasn't played much yet this season. Lots of options which is great.

I think VDF is my favourite Irish player. He has claims on being in the top 5 open sides in the world. I think leavy is more a 6.5. In any case I would definitely start VDF.

Interested Observer

awec wrote: »

The problem will be solved next year because both Fardy and JGP are out of contract and a maximum of one of them will be renewed.

Why's that?

salmocab

awec wrote: »

The problem will be solved next year because both Fardy and JGP are out of contract and a maximum of one of them will be renewed.

I’d say both could well be re signed, JGP will be IQ so the irfu wont have any issue.

Former Former

Interested Observer wrote: »

Does JGP becoming IQ actually solve this problem or does he need to be an Irish citizen? Because he ain't going to be the latter. The competition rules just say 'non-European', what does that mean?

It would be completely perverse logic if becoming IQ didn't also remove you from being "non-European", so I don't think it will be an issue next year if Fardy stays.

troyzer

Former Former wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

I can't see any way he doesn't to be honest. Obviously Ryan and Toner is a pretty decent to great second row but I'm not sure how much I would trust any of the others on the bench.

Yeah this is it.

Dropping Lowe means either Tomane or Dave K on the bench. Dropping Fardy means Mick Kearney on the bench and dropping JGP means Nick McCarthy. I know which one I'd be happiest with if there's an early injury.

But I dunno, maybe you play to your strengths and don't try to second guess every eventuality, in which case Lowe has to play.

I'm getting a headache

We can't play Lowe. He's definitely put on weight.

Faugheen

swiwi_ wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

Ruddock had another strong game. He's a surefire starter for next Friday. I'm delighted that he's started the season so well. He's making a huge push for international selection.

Our openside must be VdF. He's simply the best player in Ireland right now. He may not have the grunt of Leavy/SoB but his workrate is unmatchable and he's technically excellent at everything in the ruck.

Not sure what to do with SoB. At his best he's up there with the best players in the world. But he's not at peak level yet and the form of others is too good to ignore. I also think that his best work is done at the ruck and tackle. Conan is a better carrier than him now. Jack should be the starting 8. Dunno where this leaves Leavy who was superb last season but hasn't played much yet this season. Lots of options which is great.

I think VDF is my favourite Irish player. He has claims on being in the top 5 open sides in the world. I think leavy is more a 6.5. In any case I would definitely start VDF.

I agree with all of that. I just love watching him make a tackle and within seconds he's on the other end of the pitch making another one. He's averaging a tackle every 4 and a half minutes or so. That's incredible work rate.

Larbre34

awec wrote: »

Ideally JGP, but McCarthy doesn't seem like an option.


But I think Lowe will miss out.

I meant who to drop out of the second/back row to accommodate Fardy?

Personally I'd keep him out until Toulouse then let him have a run through the test match window

Lowe is the best of the three in terms of who will most impact the scoreboard. I've zero doubt about that despite being member #1 in the Scott Fardy fan club.

I think JGP will generally lose out because Luke is a bit better overall and he seems to take his fitness very seriously. He has no issue going 80 minutes and doesn't slow down much.

If we got 2 - 3 injuries in our pack I could see Fardy moving to #1 Kolpac slot but for the time being I reckon it's Lowe where possible followed by Fardy and JGP.

Luke McGrath gets injured and JGP hits the front.

Podge_irl

Former Former wrote: »

It would be completely perverse logic if becoming IQ didn't also remove you from being "non-European", so I don't think it will be an issue next year if Fardy stays.

Ultimately it has just not been tested and "non-European" is just not well defined. The answer is nobody knows really - I honestly would expect it to not ameliorate things.

Peregrine

Scott Fardy will be 35 at the end of this season. I don't think he'll be re-signed. He did start pro rugby late though so there's probably another year in him but I don't think the IRFU would let Leinster re-sign a 35 year old.

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

It would be completely perverse logic if becoming IQ didn't also remove you from being "non-European", so I don't think it will be an issue next year if Fardy stays.

IQ is an internal sporting definition. Nationality isn't.

Burkie1203

Peregrine wrote: »

Scott Fardy will be 35 at the end of this season. I don't think he'll be re-signed. He did start pro rugby late though so there's probably another year in him but I don't think the IRFU would let Leinster re-sign a 35 year old.

With Ryan and Toner nailed on for RWC I don't think Fardy getting a 1 year extension will be blocked

salmocab

Burkie1203 wrote: »

With Ryan and Toner nailed on for RWC I don't think Fardy getting a 1 year extension will be blocked

That’s a good point, an extra year to cover the WC Wouldn’t really hold up anyone coming through.

Buer

Burkie1203 wrote: »

With Ryan and Toner nailed on for RWC I don't think Fardy getting a 1 year extension will be blocked

I would think it would be. He'll be 35. It's Nathan Hines again. I don't see the IRFU making an exception for some early season Pro14 matches when other teams are also depleted.

There are only a few games to be played during the RWC (and no European games). Leinster will have 2-3 senior locks available and potentially have another youngster ready for some game time. I would imagine the IRFU would be more than happy for Molony and Kearney to get a solid amount of game time during the RWC with guys like Nagle or even Oisin Dowling (who will be 22) available as back up.

In 2015, they were happy to leave us with Mike McCarthy, Tom Denton and a baby faced Ross Molony as our options. I would say Molony in 2019, Kearney and Nagle isn't much different to that.

Burkie1203

Buer wrote: »

I would think it would be. He'll be 35. It's Nathan Hines again. I don't see the IRFU making an exception for some early season Pro14 matches when other teams are also depleted.

There are only a few games to be played during the RWC (and no European games). Leinster will have 2-3 senior locks available and potentially have another youngster ready for some game time. I would imagine the IRFU would be more than happy for Molony and Kearney to get a solid amount of game time during the RWC with guys like Nagle or even Oisin Dowling (who will be 22) available as back up.

In 2015, they were happy to leave us with Mike McCarthy, Tom Denton and a baby faced Ross Molony as our options. I would say Molony in 2019, Kearney and Nagle isn't much different to that.

Hines was blocked from a 2 year deal IIRC.

A 1 year deal for Fardy makes sense. Pro14 starts as normal first weekend of september and RWC starts 3 weeks later (Sept 20) Potentially 8-10 games before Ireland players come back depending on how RWC goes. Add in resting guys between Euro rounds.

awec

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Hines was blocked from a 2 year deal IIRC.

A 1 year deal for Fardy makes sense. Pro14 starts as normal first weekend of september and RWC starts 3 weeks later (Sept 20) Potentially 8-10 games before Ireland players come back depending on how RWC goes. Add in resting guys between Euro rounds.

I don't think the IRFU would be fooled by this notion that Leinster would be re-signing Fardy to play in the dirt tracker games and when other guys need rested.



If Leinster want someone in that role I am sure they will be prompted to find a cheaper option.

Kevski

In relation to the Fardy/Lowe/JGP situation, there are three criteria for listed in the World Rugby regulations in relation to 15 a side:

The existing World Rugby eligibility criteria set out in Regulation 8.1 will be maintained. This is based on the following:

(a) The country in which the Player was born; or
(b) The country in which one parent or grandparent of the Player was born; or
(c) The country in which the Player has completed thirty-six consecutive months of Residence immediately preceding the time of playing. Residence means the place or location in which a Player has his primary and permanent home and Resident shall be construed accordingly


If we look at a couple of examples in the context of the “non-european player ruling”:

a) Johnny Sexton (for example) is classed as a european player because he was born in Ireland

b) Dominic Robertson-McCoy is classed as a european player as his grandfather is from Armagh, despite being born in NZ (has been in Connacht match day squads with two non-european players)

So if players are classed as non-european by virtue of meeting the eligibility criteria in (a) and (b) above, it seems fairly logical that Gibson-Park should also be classed as a non-european player once he meets the criteria in (c).

Bazzo

prawnsambo wrote: »

He has to be a citizen.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ultimately it has just not been tested and "non-European" is just not well defined. The answer is nobody knows really - I honestly would expect it to not ameliorate things.

Stolen from Shelflife over on Connacht Clan, IQ or 36 months residency qualifies a player:

Former Former

prawnsambo wrote: »

IQ is an internal sporting definition. Nationality isn't.

non-European is a rugby definition.

Edit; see above, case closed.

Interested Observer

It's a long way off in forecast terms but there's a non trivial chance the weather is going to be horrendous on Friday.

Zzippy

Interested Observer wrote: »

It's a long way off in forecast terms but there's a non trivial chance the weather is going to be horrendous on Friday.

If this chart is anywhere near accurate there would be a good chance of the game not going ahead.

Meteorite58 wrote: »

cameramonkey

Zzippy wrote: »

If this chart is anywhere near accurate there would be a good chance of the game not going ahead.

would be called off in those conditions. 130km gust are too dangerous to have people in a stadium.


The forecast might change its 120hour out.

Neil3030

Nice. I'll be in Belgium next week. Cheers the British Isles!

Podge_irl

Bazzo wrote: »

Stolen from Shelflife over on Connacht Clan, IQ or 36 months residency qualifies a player:

Ah fair enough, I've looked for it before and not been able to find anything defining non-European.

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

non-European is a rugby definition.

Edit; see above, case closed.

There was discussion on this before and the definition given at the time was the one in 6.2.5(a) above. The other sections weren't mentioned. Was this changed or was it just omitted? I can't find any previous versions.

stephen_n

As crap as it is, if Fardy’s fit it will be Lowe who drops out. Kearney or McCarthy on the bench, compared to either DK, Tomane or ROL make the choice for the coaches. It’s a complete pain that this situation exists, but we have far better wing cover than we have in either SH or lock.