Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

stephen_n

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Bleyandaal would be a waste of a cap. Even if he was fit when has he really shown that he is international class? he had a few decent games 2 seasons ago and nothing before or since.



Carty is not good enough


It will be Sexton, Carberry and Byrne in Ireland squad. Burns will be back up


Would it be the worst thing to pull JJ out of Munster and bring him to Leinster. Munster have ruined him. He would be a good backup 10 and could get some form back

It’s beyond me how you can say Carty isn’t good enough, then promote JJ in the same post. I’d very much doubt JJ would get ahead of Carty at Connacht and certainly wouldn’t get ahead of Byrne at Leinster.

Clegg

Squidgy Black wrote: »

JJ won't ever be an international outhalf.

He never kicked on at senior level at all. It's nothing to do with Munster, he was playing well when he got his opportunities, and then when he went to Northampton he flopped and then came back to Munster and has continued to flop.

I'm not going to hold JJ's time at Northampton against him. He was the wrong player at wrong time for them. They were on the downward trajectory and the coaching team were desperately trying to stay afloat. George North didn't have the best of times with them either.

However I agree that he was never a fly half. Anthony Foley always preferred Keatley. He just missed out on too many years of development. It feels like he was only establishing himself when he decided to leave. Look at the likes of Ringrose sand VdF. Both came through around the same time but stuck around. Now they're mainstays in the squad and have developed into quality players due to continued exposure to senior rugby. Hanrahan just never had that. Left Munster too early and joined completely the wrong side.

Shefwedfan

Squidgy Black wrote: »

JJ won't ever be an international outhalf.

He never kicked on at senior level at all. It's nothing to do with Munster, he was playing well when he got his opportunities, and then when he went to Northampton he flopped and then came back to Munster and has continued to flop.

Players like that can move and suddenly a change of sceanriomakes a huge difference


he went to Northampton when the place started to fall apart very quickly


He went back to Munster and they spent the whole time trying to find someone else to play 10...hardly a confidence filler.....


Noel Reid not really the answer during the AI's and 6 natiosn

AdamD

He was never as good at u20 level as made out. Made some big line breaks which the commentators loved, Henderson was the real star of that team. Backrow was really strong too

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/LimaSopoaga/status/1050386186848653312?s=19

wise7

Dubinusa wrote: »

Bleyandaal would be a waste of time imo. Carty may get a look as may Byrne, but Carberry needs as much time as possible wearing 10 for Ireland. He should start against Italy and the Eagles.

What is this populist obsessing over Carberry needing as much game time at 10 to prove that what Graham Henry said about him 2 years ago could actually turn out to be true?. Meanwhile, Ross Byrne has been the preferred choice of his coaches for 10 in Blue, taken to Australia by Joe Schmidt and is delivering better and better at Pro 14/Euro level and has earned the step-up to show what he can do in the Nov internationals. He is a 10 who can play at 10. Joey is a great footballer, more suited to being a 15, in my view, because all of his good strike work comes from deep. Why be consumed with Joey's potential at 10 instead of building on what can be seen being delivered week on week by Byrne as a really solid game manager. I just don't get it.

b.gud

Buer wrote: »

Taken from the Celtic Cup thread:

Leinster Rugby ‘A’

15. Jack Kelly CAPTAIN
14. Adam Byrne
13. Jimmy O’Brien
12. Tom Daly
11. Dave Kearney
10. Noel Reid
9. Paddy Patterson(U21)
1. Peter Dooley
2. Ronan Kelleher(U21)
3. Vakh Abdaladze
4. Ross Molony
5. Mick Kearney
6. Josh Murphy
7. Scott Penny(U20)
8. Caelan Doris(U21)

16. Bryan Byrne
17. Ed Byrne
18. Jack Aungier(U21)
19. Oisín Dowling
20. Max Deegan
21. Hugh O’Sullivan(U21)
22. Ciarán Frawley
23. Michael Silvester(U21)

Looks to me like they're preparing Reid to start a match or two for the senior side at 10 during the autumn series. We've three games during that period. October 27th, November 4th and November 23rd.

With the way that the Irish games fall, I wouldn't be surprised if we were without Byrne and Sexton for all three. November 3rd is the Italian game in Chicago. I'd expect Byrne to be over there for that in some capacity and wouldn't expect Sexton to be in Italy playing Treviso the weekend before! Perhaps Byrne plays and then flies from Italy to Chicago and joins up with the squad?

Regardless, the following weekend is the Kings in South Africa where it'll be Frawley/Reid. And then we've the final game on the 23rd at home to the Ospreys which is the same weekend Ireland plays the USA when I don't expect Sexton to feature so Byrne is likely to be involved (unless Schmidt wants to look at someone like Burns, Carty or even Bleyendaal but I don't see that happening).

The other very interesting item is that Max Deegan looks to be losing out on a significant amount of game time to Doris. There certainly seems to be a lot of time being invested in Doris (which I'm fine with).

Paddy Patterson sounds like the kind of name I'd make if I got caught on the hop by the TV licence inspector

JJ strikes me as someone with plenty of talent but a poor work ethic.

He doesn't look particularly fit and this leads to his overall contributions being below par. It also means that under duress or fatigue he makes mistakes.

One think Leinster have gotten right is culture and mentality. I think you need to be very careful when recruiting in general that this isn't impacted and despite Tomane not lighting things up just yet, his attitude at least seems to be spot on.

So for me I'd take a pass on JJ. Not because of the player he could be, but certainly because of the player he is right now. I'd much rather we invest in Frawley and see where he ends up safe in the knowledge that he's culturally well attuned to the club at this stage.

wise7

wise7 wrote: »

What is this populist obsessing over Carberry needing as much game time at 10 to prove that what Graham Henry said about him 2 years ago could actually turn out to be true?. Meanwhile, Ross Byrne has been the preferred choice of his coaches for 10 in Blue, taken to Australia by Joe Schmidt and is delivering better and better at Pro 14/Euro level and has earned the step-up to show what he can do in the Nov internationals. He is a 10 who can play at 10. Joey is a great footballer, more suited to being a 15, in my view, because all of his good strike work comes from deep. Why be consumed with Joey's potential at 10 instead of building on what can be seen being delivered week on week by Byrne as a really solid game manager. I just don't get it.

For me it's simple. Carbery is a better rugby player than Byrne. If he can become as good a 10 he'll be a much better option for Ireland because he's the better individual player.

He hasn't had the opportunities that Byrne has had due to injury, call up's and his ability to perform at 15 (because he's a better rugby player).

If by next season it isn't clear cut then I'd probably step back and say that Carbery is the better rugby player and Byrne is the better 10. This could be the way things go, but Carbery certainly has a lot of the right attributes and those with the most insight seem to think he's the guy.

jacothelad

molloyjh wrote: »

Ha, no. He wouldn’t have needed drunken rescuing so often if he was. He’s got a very posh English accent which has helped get him in trouble a few times over the years.

Was that because people could actually understand him?

baaba maal

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Dunno. There are a few good men in that Wasps pack

Plus we have to play them far and away.

Just saw that quicker smarter people got to this before me- post withdrawn in utter disgrace.

Heymans

Car berry is an out and out attacking and defending 10. He attacks the gain line and finds gaps to puncture defenses. It’s a rare attribute in a 10 but golden when you find it. With that comes holding of inside players thereby making space in the center or wider channels. Byrne is a good distributor but doesn’t draw defenses the way Carberry does. He also tends to push the attacker to the ground and stay on his feet whereas Joey takes the man down in a more conventional tackling style. Byrne has been touted as a better game manager but I haven’t seen him really grab a game and drag a team through like Johnny can. He strikes me as being too relaxed in his effort on the field whereas Joey is all action. I don’t know what it is but I would push at calling it a blasé attitude on and off the pitch. He is good at directing play but tends to sit in the pocket a lot and that becomes readable by opposition back3’s. All round Joey is the better footballer and is not a million miles off Byrne when he tries cross field kicks or kicking to the corners like Byrne can. All round he’s the better 10.

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

JJ strikes me as someone with plenty of talent but a poor work ethic.

He doesn't look particularly fit and this leads to his overall contributions being below par. It also means that under duress or fatigue he makes mistakes.

One think Leinster have gotten right is culture and mentality. I think you need to be very careful when recruiting in general that this isn't impacted and despite Tomane not lighting things up just yet, his attitude at least seems to be spot on.

So for me I'd take a pass on JJ. Not because of the player he could be, but certainly because of the player he is right now. I'd much rather we invest in Frawley and see where he ends up safe in the knowledge that he's culturally well attuned to the club at this stage.

I very much doubt your impression is correct. I don't think he's all that great, but he's spent quite a few years now in a professional training environment with S&C coaches, I'd say you don't get away with not putting in the effort or not being up to par. He certainly hasn't fulfilled his much-vaunted potential, but I doubt it's a fitness issue.

Former Former

The worst thing that ever happened JJ was Jackson being withdrawn from the junior world cup. It brought JJ to prominence in a position he couldn't really play. If he'd stayed a 12 he'd have been much better off.

I can't think of one single reason why Leinster would want him.

b.gud

Former Former wrote: »

I can't think of one single reason why Leinster would want him.

To annoy Munster fans

Neil3030

Would take Keatley back in a heartbeat, mind.

thomond2006

b.gud wrote: »

To annoy Munster fans

I don't think it would annoy us at all. Munster are all in with Carbery and Bleyendaal will be #2 pending fitness.

Former Former

Neil3030 wrote: »

Would take Keatley back in a heartbeat, mind.

Ah heeeyor

Zzippy

Zzippy wrote: »

I very much doubt your impression is correct. I don't think he's all that great, but he's spent quite a few years now in a professional training environment with S&C coaches, I'd say you don't get away with not putting in the effort or not being up to par. He certainly hasn't fulfilled his much-vaunted potential, but I doubt it's a fitness issue.

I'd have thought that, but players like Andy Goode have spoken about how they did the bare minimum in the gym without drawing much by way of ire. Luke Fitz has similarly talked about Zebo having little interest in the gym and in his recent podcast was wondering what sort of a player Zebo could be if he put in the hard yards in training.

So I've no problem believing that JJ can survive in a pro setup without being in top shape. He doesn't look particularly lean and his lack of conditioning shows later in games and more pointedly when he's required to have an impact at the breakdown.

I'm not the Munster S&C coach, I'm just going by what I see but it's an opinion I've formed over the last year.

prawnsambo

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't think it would annoy us at all. Munster are all in with Carbery and Bleyendaal will be #2 pending fitness.

The new shiny thing is much nicer than the old new shiny thing.

.ak

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LimaSopoaga/status/1050386186848653312?s=19

"Irishman Customs Dude" hahaha :pac:

Interested Observer

Read this comment elsewhere and it got me thinking - could this be the strongest XXIII Leinster have ever fielded?

Glass Prison 1214

Interested Observer wrote: »

Read this comment elsewhere and it got me thinking - could this be the strongest XXIII Leinster have ever fielded?

I was thinking that when I saw the team named. It's difficult to think of a stronger team. The closest probably being the 2012 heineken cup final team.

Heymans

Interested Observer wrote: »

Read this comment elsewhere and it got me thinking - could this be the strongest XXIII Leinster have ever fielded?

You’d be hard pushed to beat a back line of BOD Darcy Horgan and Hickie. The pack back in those days mightn’t have been as strong however but I feel it’s hard to look past those previous teams even though they might not have won the Heineken Cup

Dave_The_Sheep

I realise we're double champions and this Wasps team isn't all that, but my natural pessimism makes it hard to be as confident as some on this thread. They're not Northampton.

wise7

Heymans wrote: »

Car berry is an out and out attacking and defending 10. He attacks the gain line and finds gaps to puncture defenses. It’s a rare attribute in a 10 but golden when you find it. With that comes holding of inside players thereby making space in the center or wider channels. Byrne is a good distributor but doesn’t draw defenses the way Carberry does. He also tends to push the attacker to the ground and stay on his feet whereas Joey takes the man down in a more conventional tackling style. Byrne has been touted as a better game manager but I haven’t seen him really grab a game and drag a team through like Johnny can. He strikes me as being too relaxed in his effort on the field whereas Joey is all action. I don’t know what it is but I would push at calling it a blasé attitude on and off the pitch. He is good at directing play but tends to sit in the pocket a lot and that becomes readable by opposition back3’s. All round Joey is the better footballer and is not a million miles off Byrne when he tries cross field kicks or kicking to the corners like Byrne can. All round he’s the better 10.

One of the strongest features of Byrne's game is his defence. 9 tackles last Saturday. He gets back to his feet rapidly after making his tackle and he is ready to go again. He also plays a huge role in marshalling the defence. Joey tends to head out to 2nd centre position when the opposition have the ball whereas Byrne stays in close to the opposition forward drives especially close to his own line and defends the fringes well. As for Joey taking it flat that a lot of times is a bit of an illusion as he steps to the side with ball in hand and then releases. He also tends to hang in the pocket as per the second half on Saturday. Byrne has a cool temperament and always has as far I can remember. He handles pressure well and stays calm. That should be confused with blasé. You cant say that about his performances last season against Exeter, Montpellier x 2, Munster x 2 to highlight a few. he absorbs pressure and controls well. he has got good at taking it flatter and probing and his size is going to work him in due course in breaking the line. Just my observations.

Squidgy Black

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd have thought that, but players like Andy Goode have spoken about how they did the bare minimum in the gym without drawing much by way of ire. Luke Fitz has similarly talked about Zebo having little interest in the gym and in his recent podcast was wondering what sort of a player Zebo could be if he put in the hard yards in training.

So I've no problem believing that JJ can survive in a pro setup without being in top shape. He doesn't look particularly lean and his lack of conditioning shows later in games and more pointedly when he's required to have an impact at the breakdown.

I'm not the Munster S&C coach, I'm just going by what I see but it's an opinion I've formed over the last year.

In fairness, Andy Goode is a completely different generation, and was just living off pure talent and reputation. We were all well aware he was a lazy bástard.

The difference is, JJ doesn't put in the performances elsewhere to back it up. Goode towards the end was fat and had zero conditioning but still actually played alright.

Rigor Mortis

Squidgy Black wrote: »

In fairness, Andy Goode is a completely different generation, and was just living off pure talent and reputation. We were all well aware he was a lazy bástard.

The difference is, JJ doesn't put in the performances elsewhere to back it up. Goode towards the end was fat and had zero conditioning but still actually played alright.

Goodes decision to join Newcastle instead of London Irish in 2015/16 was the single reason that Newcastle stayed up. And he was completely out of shape then.

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd have thought that, but players like Andy Goode have spoken about how they did the bare minimum in the gym without drawing much by way of ire. Luke Fitz has similarly talked about Zebo having little interest in the gym and in his recent podcast was wondering what sort of a player Zebo could be if he put in the hard yards in training.

So I've no problem believing that JJ can survive in a pro setup without being in top shape. He doesn't look particularly lean and his lack of conditioning shows later in games and more pointedly when he's required to have an impact at the breakdown.

I'm not the Munster S&C coach, I'm just going by what I see but it's an opinion I've formed over the last year.

I don't have a shred of respect for anything that attention-seeker says. He's a wannabe Franno, just saying stuff to be controversial, criticising current players for unprofessionalism (Zebo) and cowardice (Cipriani) just confirms he's a classless publicity-hungry media shill.

scott1974

Zzippy wrote: »

I don't have a shred of respect for anything that attention-seeker says. He's a wannabe Franno, just saying stuff to be controversial, criticising current players for unprofessionalism (Zebo) and cowardice (Cipriani) just confirms he's a classless publicity-hungry media shill.

I get the feeling that he's not that bright....