advantages of Brexit

Taytoland

end of the road wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think his/her scaremongering about a possible alliance was funny.

It will be all fun and games until one of our hardliners breaks out the rosary beads.

exactly. not a chance would the DUP get enough votes in a UI to be any kind of a political force.

Enough votes to form a very strong gathering in the Dail which could determine many future governments. We could easily enter government with Fine Gael.

Leroy42

The problem stems from the difference is what was promised (easiest trade deal in history, £350m pw for the NHS, Germany car companies demanding the UK get a deal, they need us more than we need them etc) and the reality (leave if you must but if you want certain rights there are certain obligations).

The problem is those rights, many of which were promised during the campaign run headlong into the obligations, many of which were promised to be removed during the campaign.

It is such a sh1tshow, that rather than face the reality of it, you have people like JRM and Boris openly claiming that the duly elected leader of the party, the one the accepted to lead them, is now a useless, cowardly traitor to Brexit. They are willing to blow open their own party rather than face reality.

I have no gra for TM, think she is a terrible leader and PM, but I have yet to see any argument put forward that would have made this work. Apart from the terrible idea of triggering A50, what has happened since then has been completely foreseeable in terms of the negotiations and what the EU were willing to give.

How many Tory leaders have been hobbled by the party infighting over the EU, but each time it is the leader that is the problem!

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A percentage of the British people want to leave the EU...a diminishing percentage at that.

After all the wrong polling in recent years its better to have referendums and elections . 52% for Brexit in the referendum and 84% for parties that said they would respect the referendum in the general election . I Love democracy .

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

After all the wrong polling in recent years its better to have referendums and elections . 52% for Brexit in the referendum and 84% for parties that said they would respect the referendum in the general election . I Love democracy .

52% for Brexit is a percentage of the British people. Not 'the British people' in it's entirety.

So maybe stop claiming that. You are wrong.

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

The problem stems from the difference is what was promised (easiest trade deal in history, £350m pw for the NHS, Germany car companies demanding the UK get a deal, they need us more than we need them etc) and the reality (leave if you must but if you want certain rights there are certain obligations).

The problem is those rights, many of which were promised during the campaign run headlong into the obligations, many of which were promised to be removed during the campaign.

It is such a sh1tshow, that rather than face the reality of it, you have people like JRM and Boris openly claiming that the duly elected leader of the party, the one the accepted to lead them, is now a useless, cowardly traitor to Brexit. They are willing to blow open their own party rather than face reality.

I have no gra for TM, think she is a terrible leader and PM, but I have yet to see any argument put forward that would have made this work. Apart from the terrible idea of triggering A50, what has happened since then has been completely foreseeable in terms of the negotiations and what the EU were willing to give.

How many Tory leaders have been hobbled by the party infighting over the EU, but each time it is the leader that is the problem!

The Tory Party which so often is the Government in Britain is not compatible with being in the Eu . Corbyn has been anti Eu his whole Political life . Britain is not compatible with the Eu . An Amicable divorce please and lets meet up for drinks occasionally .

Kermit.de.frog

The EU understandably wants to make sure that a country should not be better off for leaving such a large market than remaining in.

That does not mean humiliating Britain (they have made a good job of that themselves), it just means no cake and eating it.

Either way the UK will be materially worse off after this process - it's a question of how much.

UK wants all the benefits of the club and none of the responsibilities and to be able to go out and strike all it's own deals at the same time.

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

52% for Brexit is a percentage of the British people. Not 'the British people' in it's entirety.

So maybe stop claiming that. You are wrong.

In elections / referendums ya count the people that vote . Ya don’t bother counting the people that can’t be bothered . I Love democracy .

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

In elections / referendums ya count the people that vote . Ya don’t bother counting the people that can’t be bothered . I Love democracy .

Of course YOU don't. That is why your attempt to leave the EU is a shambles. Because you cannot decide what it is you want yourselves.

*Assuming you are British.

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

The Tory Party which so often is the Government in Britain is not compatible with being in the Eu . Corbyn has been anti Eu his whole Political life . Britain is not compatible with the Eu . An Amicable divorce please and lets meet up for drinks occasionally .

Great, the EU is trying to faciliate that. UK are free to leave. Pay to obligations you, as a sovereign state, signed up to.

Ensure that whilst you are free to leave that you don't leave others members on the lurch for the outcome of your decisions (NI border).

Understand that as the relationship is ending it is only right that you can no longer be parts of our special groups, made just for members.

Once we have all that we can work on a trade deal that will benefit us all.

Simples. Not sure why the UK is throwing such a hissy fit. That deal has been on the table since Day 1.

Taytoland

blinding wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

52% for Brexit is a percentage of the British people. Not 'the British people' in it's entirety.

So maybe stop claiming that. You are wrong.

In elections / referendums ya count the people that vote . Ya don’t bother counting the people that can’t be bothered . I Love democracy .

Myself and two other family members voted in the referendum. Two for remain and myself for leave and the rest didn't bother. So you are right, the only people who count are those who vote. You would be surprised at how many people don't care enough about politics or bothered to even get out and vote if they slightly care.

blinding

Taytoland wrote: »

Myself and two other family members voted in the referendum. Two for remain and myself for leave and the rest didn't bother. So you are right, the only people who count are those who vote. You would be surprised at how many people don't care enough about politics or bothered to even get out and vote if they slightly care.

I Love democracy . That’s why when I care about something I make damn sure I vote . Love it .

Donald Trump

Taytoland wrote: »

Enough votes to form a very strong gathering in the Dail which could determine many future governments. We could easily enter government with Fine Gael.

How many candidates do DUP get elected within other countries in the UK?


Many Scottish, English or Welsh representatives?


You'd expect those areas to be more fertile than the Republic? No?

Leroy42

Taytoland Why did you vote leave? I thought you were Irish and surely you can see that the UK leaving the EU is of no benefit to us. We may well make the best of it, but it would be much better for Ireland for the UK to remain.

Maybe I have misunderstood your position, and if so I apologies in advance

FrancieBrady

Taytoland wrote: »

Myself and two other family members voted in the referendum. Two for remain and myself for leave and the rest didn't bother. So you are right, the only people who count are those who vote. You would be surprised at how many people don't care enough about politics or bothered to even get out and vote if they slightly care.

The 100% figure is made up of the 'people who voted'. 48% of them voted to Remain, 52% of them voted to Leave.

The turnout was 72% approx.

Taytoland

Donald Trump wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Enough votes to form a very strong gathering in the Dail which could determine many future governments. We could easily enter government with Fine Gael.

How many candidates do DUP get elected within other countries in the UK?


Many Scottish, English or Welsh representatives?


You'd expect those areas to be more fertile than the Republic? No?

DUP don't run candidates in the mainland. Although right now in some areas they probably should on the anti mass immigration and EU ticket.

FrancieBrady

Leroy42 wrote: »

Taytoland Why did you vote leave? I thought you were Irish and surely you can see that the UK leaving the EU is of no benefit to us. We may well make the best of it, but it would be much better for Ireland for the UK to remain.

Maybe I have misunderstood your position, and if so I apologies in advance

Because he read a buke that said the EU is a naughty naughty thing.

Donald Trump

Taytoland wrote: »

DUP don't run candidates in the mainland. Although right now in some areas they probably should on the anti mass immigration and EU ticket.

You do agree though that logic would suggest they might be better received on the "mainland" than in the Republic though?



If they can't gain traction there, they're unlikely to do so in the Republic.


And if there was a United Ireland, the North would not need to be so polarized. As it stand, there isn't much room for middle ground as a vote for centre is a vote wasted that could have been used against your mortal enemy. That impetus would diminish. That is equally as true for SF hoovering up votes from the "other side"

Capt'n Midnight

blinding wrote: »

Surely the Eu has to bring Britain to the door and ask it nicely to leave . Why does the Eu not do this ? This is a serious question !

The Americans have a phrase "you can't fire me, I quit"

And this isn't just "I quit",

This is "I designed an idiot-proof self destruct mechanism that can only be countermanded by 28 national and 10 regional bodies whom I've continued to annoy since I slamed down that big red button last March."

FrancieBrady

What would be the relevance of a party espousing 'Union with Britain' after unification of Ireland anyhow?

They would most likely fade away as an irrelevance with the politically motivated finding a home in Irish political parties.

Would a Peter Robinson join up with a party Ian Paisley would be attracted to? I don't think so.

So the DUP fundamentalism would be diluted and weakened imo.

Capt'n Midnight

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

If May thinks she's giving the people what they want, then why is she so afraid to let them decide now that everyone knows the consequences of it. They voted for 500m a week for the NHS, leaving EU was just an after thought for the voters. Now that they know the 500m a week was pure bull s hit and it's all lose lose lose they might think differently.

The actual figure is closer to £440m a week

That's not how much they'd save by leaving the EU.

It's how much revenue the UK government looses every week because the economy has underperformed relative to everyone since the Brexit vote. And it's going to keep getting worse as long as businesses are cutting down on investing or are diverting money into backup plans.

And Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Taytoland

DUP could just rebrand as the Conservative Party of Ireland and the orange vote will be potent. I'm not sure which Irish traditional parties would campaign in areas traditionally Unionist. Maybe Fine Gael in such a hypothetical situation. If Fine Gael played it right they probably could sweep up so many votes from that bloc of voters if the DUP decided to disband/not rebrand.

BorneTobyWilde

It's fictional money. It will never be available for NHS. It's just a random number plucked from the arse of a politician.
They make billions by being part of EU with trade and services so on. UK will need a weak currency to do trade around the world. How can they wish to compete if a pound is worth 2 dollars . No one is going to pay UK double for any product.

Ardent

buried wrote: »

Note to self: must watch the Shining again!

Mike Hoch

The Irish common perception that Brexit is the stupidest thing the British voter has ever passed is cringeworthy, kow towing Uncle Tom bollocks. It would make you ashamed to be Irish. They voted, they know what they voted for, and in all likelihood within 3 to 5 years it will become apparent that the sky hasn't fallen in, the EU needs UK trade as much as the UK needs the EU, and they will continue to trade amicably without having to impose Brussels diktats that are to the detriment of the wellbeing of their own population.

Meanwhile we'll still be here afraid to enact any policy that upsets Brussels, despite the fact they seem pretty powerless when Italy, France, Poland, Hubgary etc tell the Germans where to go.

Twenty Grand

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It's fictional money. It will never be available for NHS. It's just a random number plucked from the arse of a politician.
They make billions by being part of EU with trade and services so on. UK will need a weak currency to do trade around the world. How can they wish to compete if a pound is worth 2 dollars . No one is going to pay UK double for any product.

Any idea what the pound will be worth if they crash out of the EU?

I'm looking to buy a car...

Mike Hoch wrote: »

The Irish common perception that Brexit is the stupidest thing the British voter has ever passed is cringeworthy, kow towing Uncle Tom bollocks. It would make you ashamed to be Irish. They voted, they know what they voted for,

But they didn't, since most of the slogans and promises turned out to be lies.

Mike Hoch wrote: »

and in all likelihood within 3 to 5 years it will become apparent that the sky hasn't fallen in, the EU needs UK trade as much as the UK needs the EU,

But it doesn't, and the idea that they equally need each other is laughable. If I was an Irish, German or French company competing with British companies, I'd be ecstatic!

Mike Hoch wrote: »

Meanwhile we'll still be here afraid to enact any policy that upsets Brussels, despite the fact they seem pretty powerless when Italy, France, Poland, Hubgary etc tell the Germans where to go.

The Irish have told the EU where to go twice in referenda over the last 15 years. Where are we capitulating where other countries are not?

Leroy42

Which dictats have been a detriment to their own population?

Donald Trump

Taytoland wrote: »

DUP could just rebrand as the Conservative Party of Ireland and the orange vote will be potent. I'm not sure which Irish traditional parties would campaign in areas traditionally Unionist. Maybe Fine Gael in such a hypothetical situation. If Fine Gael played it right they probably could sweep up so many votes from that bloc of voters if the DUP decided to disband/not rebrand.

DUP like conservative Catholics now?


Whatever happened to Paisley's stance on Catholics not being Christian and following the evil anti-Christ cult of Rome?

Donald Trump

Mike Hoch wrote: »

The Irish common perception that Brexit is the stupidest thing the British voter has ever passed is cringeworthy, kow towing Uncle Tom bollocks. It would make you ashamed to be Irish. They voted, they know what they voted for, and in all likelihood within 3 to 5 years it will become apparent that the sky hasn't fallen in, the EU needs UK trade as much as the UK needs the EU, and they will continue to trade amicably without having to impose Brussels diktats that are to the detriment of the wellbeing of their own population.

Meanwhile we'll still be here afraid to enact any policy that upsets Brussels, despite the fact they seem pretty powerless when Italy, France, Poland, Hubgary etc tell the Germans where to go.

Can you tell us what they voted for?


Actually, before you tell us, can you tell the UK government.


Because they still don't seem to know yet

Donald Trump

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It's fictional money. It will never be available for NHS. It's just a random number plucked from the arse of a politician.
They make billions by being part of EU with trade and services so on. UK will need a weak currency to do trade around the world. How can they wish to compete if a pound is worth 2 dollars . No one is going to pay UK double for any product.

Just FYI. You have that arseways (unless I did not read your message correctly). If 1 GBP goes to 2 USD then Americans will want to buy more stuff for them as it will be cheaper

Taytoland

Donald Trump wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

DUP could just rebrand as the Conservative Party of Ireland and the orange vote will be potent. I'm not sure which Irish traditional parties would campaign in areas traditionally Unionist. Maybe Fine Gael in such a hypothetical situation. If Fine Gael played it right they probably could sweep up so many votes from that bloc of voters if the DUP decided to disband/not rebrand.

DUP like conservative Catholics now?


Whatever happened to Paisley's stance on Catholics not being Christian and following the evil anti-Christ cult of Rome?

Paisley would say anything for a vote.

First Up

Mike Hoch wrote: »

They voted, they know what they voted for, and in all likelihood within 3 to 5 years it will become apparent that the sky hasn't fallen in, the EU needs UK trade as much as the UK needs the EU, and they will continue to trade amicably without having to impose Brussels diktats that are to the detriment of the wellbeing of their own population.

How did you work that out?

44% of UK exports go to the EU. Less than 7% of French and German exports go to the UK. We are the most dependent on the UK and our figure is only 15%.

Delusional.

Donald Trump

Taytoland wrote: »

Paisley would say anything for a vote.

By that logic, current DUP voters wanted to hear that.


So I don't see too many conservative Catholics siding with them

Junkyard Tom

Mike Hoch wrote: »

They voted, they know what they voted for.

Stop lying. There wasn't even a Brexit plan. On the contrary the Brits have been lied to relentlessly by large sections of the British media.

blinding

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Stop lying. There wasn't even a Brexit plan. On the contrary the Brits have been lied to relentlessly by large sections of the British media.

The electorate were asked ; Do you want to leave the Eu . they said yes please . Its not the electorates fault that the British Politicians have forgotten how to run their own Country .

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Stop lying. There wasn't even a Brexit plan. On the contrary the Brits have been lied to relentlessly by large sections of the British media.

It is like shooting fish in a barrel disproving this whole 'The British people knew what they were voting for' bollix.

I think this could be blinding on the phone.

Junkyard Tom

blinding wrote: »

The electorate were asked ; Do you want to leave the Eu.

The EU isn't a room with a person in it faced with the option of leaving or staying. That level of child-like thinking is what's caused this mess. There are multiple models of EU relationships from full membership, to Norway, to North Korea.

One way or another the British can no more be 'independent' of the EU than the Moon of the Earth. The gravitational pull will mean Britain will have no choice but to clone EU rules/norms whether they like it or not.

Taytoland

The question was should the UK remain or leave the EU. The majority voted to leave. After many months of debate, that is the decision the electorate came to. Seems pretty obvious to me. In England alone remain gathered 13,266,996, leave gathered 15,188,406.

Greentopia

end of the road wrote: »

the conservatives were desperate to get back into power, the DUP wanted a bigger grip on NI . it was a brilliant opportunity for both of them because the conservatives get back in and the DUP get to hold NI to ransom but don't effect politics on the mainland. of course DUP voters wouldn't change their views in a UI but in reality they would be a minority in a UI.

But with our system of PR small parties can enter Govt and hold a lot more power than in the UK system. What's to stop the DUP fielding local representatives down here in a UI running on a socially conservative platform pandering to the right wing ultra conservative Catholic voters who want to roll back the progress we've attained in the last few years with two referenda? we know by the referenda results those people are a sizeable minority. The No side had no problem taking money and copying the tactics from American fundamentalist Christian anti-abortion groups.

Strange bedfellows of course, but I think we might be surprised how many would be prepared to overlook their differences in pursuit of their common agenda of rolling back the clock on women's and LGBT rights.

Hopefully I'd be proved wrong and their religious differences would be enough to quell any hope of them succeeding in working together, but I wouldn't like to test it out.

Twenty Grand

Taytoland wrote: »

The question was should the UK remain or leave the EU. The majority voted to leave. After many months of debate, that is the decision the electorate came to. Seems pretty obvious to me. In England alone remain gathered 13,266,996, leave gathered 15,188,406.

When the UK govt has to reassure people there'll still be enough food in the country after brexit, you know something has gone wrong.

The Rape of Lucretia

Taytoland wrote: »

The question was should the UK remain or leave the EU. The majority voted to leave. After many months of debate, that is the decision the electorate came to. Seems pretty obvious to me. In England alone remain gathered 13,266,996, leave gathered15,188,406.

Unfortunately, this is the mentality that drove Brexit thinking. Little Englander. Union Jack wavers dreaming of Queen Victoria's Empire, exhortations to rule the waves, etc.
Without a recognitions that it is a union. Or considering the desires of the smaller regions. Allowing themselves to day dream and not for a moment consider the practicalities of dealing with an issue like the NI/Eire border. Many didnt even know NI was part of the Union. Thats an informed referendum all right.

Professor Moriarty

Taytoland wrote: »

The question was should the UK remain or leave the EU. The majority voted to leave. After many months of debate, that is the decision the electorate came to. Seems pretty obvious to me. In England alone remain gathered 13,266,996, leave gathered 15,188,406.

Sounds like a compelling argument for the UK to break up.

Junkyard Tom

Taytoland wrote: »

...

I don't take your posts seriously.

Taytoland

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

The question was should the UK remain or leave the EU. The majority voted to leave. After many months of debate, that is the decision the electorate came to. Seems pretty obvious to me. In England alone remain gathered 13,266,996, leave gathered15,188,406.

Unfortunately, this is the mentality that drove Brexit thinking. Little Englander. Union Jack wavers dreaming of Queen Victoria's Empire, exhortations to rule the waves, etc.
Without a recognitions that it is a union. Or considering the desires of the smaller regions. Allowing themselves to day dream and not for a moment consider the practicalities of dealing with an issue like the NI/Eire border. Many didnt even know NI was part of the Union. Thats an informed election all right.

Nothing wrong with ambition.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

...

I don't take your posts seriously.

Sorry, I don't know who you are.

dav3

Taytoland wrote: »

The question was should the UK remain or leave the EU. The majority voted to leave. After many months of debate, that is the decision the electorate came to. Seems pretty obvious to me. In England alone remain gathered 13,266,996, leave gathered 15,188,406.

True. 53.4% voted to leave in England.

55.8% voted to remain in the North of Ireland.

A United Ireland it is so. Good luck to England and Wales in the future. They're going to need it.

batgoat

Taytoland wrote: »

Enough votes to form a very strong gathering in the Dail which could determine many future governments. We could easily enter government with Fine Gael.

Pretty unlikely, the last two referendums have illustrated that the Irish electorate are becoming more liberal as years go on. Reception of DUP entering a government would be so negative that it could collapse a government in own right. Consider the fact that parties like Renua are at 0% support.

Seanachai

marieholmfan wrote: »

Should be great for Cork if it all goes tits up! Cork airport doesn't overfly the UK (neither does Shannon for long haul)


What else will be great about Brexit. Please no jokes about £5 blowjobs in Hull.

I'm meeting Irish people who view Brexit the same way their ancestors used to view the threat of hell from the clergy. The word alone can chill rooms and cause hysteria, it's bizarre.

Seanachai

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Unfortunately, this is the mentality that drove Brexit thinking. Little Englander. Union Jack wavers dreaming of Queen Victoria's Empire, exhortations to rule the waves, etc.
Without a recognitions that it is a union. Or considering the desires of the smaller regions. Allowing themselves to day dream and not for a moment consider the practicalities of dealing with an issue like the NI/Eire border. Many didnt even know NI was part of the Union. Thats an informed referendum all right.

Where are you getting this perception from?, I could conversely say that all of the remain side are a metropolitan brigade, too comfortable and insular to recognise the legitimate concerns of the people they share a country with. But that would be over-generalising.

Taytoland

dav3 wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

The question was should the UK remain or leave the EU. The majority voted to leave. After many months of debate, that is the decision the electorate came to. Seems pretty obvious to me. In England alone remain gathered 13,266,996, leave gathered 15,188,406.

True. 53.4% voted to leave in England.

55.8% voted to remain in the North of Ireland.

A United Ireland it is so. Good luck to England and Wales in the future. They're going to need it.

The vote wasn't even that close. The remain effort was truly pathetic to be beat by such a margin overall. A vote based purely on vote numbers they received a hiding.

blinding

dav3 wrote: »

True. 53.4% voted to leave in England.

55.8% voted to remain in the North of Ireland.

A United Ireland it is so. Good luck to England and Wales in the future. They're going to need it.

England would be much better off financially without Northern Ireland and Scotland .

Taytoland

Seanachai wrote: »

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Unfortunately, this is the mentality that drove Brexit thinking. Little Englander. Union Jack wavers dreaming of Queen Victoria's Empire, exhortations to rule the waves, etc.
Without a recognitions that it is a union. Or considering the desires of the smaller regions. Allowing themselves to day dream and not for a moment consider the practicalities of dealing with an issue like the NI/Eire border. Many didnt even know NI was part of the Union. Thats an informed referendum all right.

Where are you getting this perception from?, I could conversely say that all of the remain side are a metropolitan brigade, too comfortable and insular to recognise the legitimate concerns of the people they share a country with. But that would be over-generalising.

It's just a cop out from people to try and explain why the pro EU side got a hiding in one of the most important votes in British history. It helps them not having to answer why so many working class people voted to leave. The racism accusation is just a myth.

A number of jurisdictions with large South Asian populations delivered Leave votes, including Luton (56.5% Leave), Hillingdon (56.4% Leave), Slough (54.3% Leave) and Bradford (54.2% Leave). All have South Asian populations of 25% and above. It’s not unreasonable to think that such Leave votes could not have been delivered without a significant number of Asian voters opting for Brexit.

And more recently released ward-level data from the West London boroughs of Ealing and Hounslow provides strong support for the idea that Asian voters were more inclined towards Leave than the polls suggested. In these two multi-ethnic boroughs, non-white ethnicity was associated with voting Leave, defying the wider national trend.
In both boroughs, the more prosperous, mainly white wards voted strongly in favour of Remain. The Asian areas, on the other hand, were much more evenly split between Remain and Leave (it’s also worth mentioning that the poorer, largely white areas containing council estates voted to Leave).

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/
If you can just dismiss the vote on racism it's just so much easier to dismiss it, not have to analyze it or learn from it.