advantages of Brexit

blinding

blinding wrote: »

England would be much better off financially without Northern Ireland and Scotland .

Ironic that England wants out of a union that wasn't good enough, having just failed at supporting the countries in its own union.

The EU helped Ireland more than the UK ever helped Northern Ireland.

The Rape of Lucretia

Taytoland wrote: »

Nothing wrong with ambition.

Thats a matter of debate. Long considered an out and out vice, it is only in recent times that it has come, to some, to seem a virtue.
Interesting book if you have the time :
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ambition-History-Virtue-William-King/dp/0300182805/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532793822&sr=8-1&keywords=ambition+a+history



Eitherway, it wasnt ambition that drove Brexit. It was xenophobia, ignorance, low education levels, a world class low level of press, nostalgia, the unfortunate history of a nation whose national consciousness is struggling to adjust from being a world power to a minor nation, and a handful of politicians whose egos outweighed any care for the UK and its citizens.
And ambition can in no way excuse disregard for others as simply inconvenient collateral damage to ones own aims.

Donald Trump

Taytoland wrote: »

The question was should the UK remain or leave the EU. The majority voted to leave. After many months of debate, that is the decision the electorate came to. Seems pretty obvious to me. In England alone remain gathered 13,266,996, leave gathered 15,188,406.

Well then it's clear. Just go. Nothing stopping you. Just go.


EU is giving you what you want so walk away and stop wasting everybodies time.

Spook_ie

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's not.
They just have to trigger Article 50 and 2 years later they are out. Easy peasey.
As it stands, they are on their way out in 2019. Only way they aren't going to be out is if the remaining members agree unanimously to allow an extension to the 2 year period.

The difficult part is when they say "yeah, we're leaving, but we still want the benefits" that suit us.


It's a bit like telling your missus you're breaking up with her and whinging when she doesn't accept your demands that you still want to be able to call over whenever you want an oul' ride. Or even cancelling your gym membership but expecting to be still allowed in to use the free weights


Once they're out, they're starting from zero. Just go and do that. I mean you'd laugh if Mexico or Thailand starting demanding things from the EU, offering feck all in return and whinging when the EU said "ah, c'mere lads. cop yourself on"

But surely the difficult part is/was the EU intransigence to not allow parallel talks over what trade agreements would work for a year or so before they did, the EU were still saying that the UK can't start negotiating trade deals with other countries until they have left the EU up until March of this year, it's not only the UK looking for cake IMO

dav3

blinding wrote: »

England would be much better off financially without Northern Ireland and Scotland .

So what's stopping them? 'Being better off financially' was one of the big, if not the biggest selling point for the leave campaign. They should just get on with the inevitable break up of the UK.

Spook_ie

Hector Bellend wrote: »

Why would you go through the motions if a deal is impossible?

Also, if a deal is impossible why was there a referendum in the first place?

There wasn't a referendum to do a deal, there was a referendum to leave the EU, it would be nice to part on an agreeable basis rather than as acrimonious ex partners

Donald Trump

Spook_ie wrote: »

But surely the difficult part is/was the EU intransigence to not allow parallel talks over what trade agreements would work for a year or so before they did, the EU were still saying that the UK can't start negotiating trade deals with other countries until they have left the EU up until March of this year, it's not only the UK looking for cake IMO

No.


There is a status quo. There is a system. EU are operating within that system. So too, still. are the UK. They will leave it next year but until then they are bound by the rules of the system. They are the ones leaving. Why on earth would the rest of the countries change the agreed-upon system at the behest of one single country that is leaving it anyway. That would be silly.


Ireland cannot negotiate it's own bilateral trade deals today as it is in the EU. As is France and Germany. As is the UK.



If the EU started negotiating before the triggering of Article 50, it still wouldn't be triggered. It would be going on for years and years and years. Until that was triggered, the UK were staying in the EU

FrancieBrady

Spook_ie wrote: »

But surely the difficult part is/was the EU intransigence to not allow parallel talks over what trade agreements would work for a year or so before they did, the EU were still saying that the UK can't start negotiating trade deals with other countries until they have left the EU up until March of this year, it's not only the UK looking for cake IMO

So allow them to do trade deals, set themselves up in a notionally stronger position and then try and negotiate an exit deal?

How stupid would that be for the EU27?

Greentopia

batgoat wrote: »

Pretty unlikely, the last two referendums have illustrated that the Irish electorate are becoming more liberal as years go on. Reception of DUP entering a government would be so negative that it could collapse a government in own right. Consider the fact that parties like Renua are at 0% support.

Sound logical refutation to my own points I made about the possibility of the DUP having power down here.

The youth of Ireland have become far more socially liberal as we saw in voting patterns in the last two referenda.

Leroy42

Spook_ie wrote: »

There wasn't a referendum to do a deal, there was a referendum to leave the EU, it would be nice to part on an agreeable basis rather than as acrimonious ex partners

On what basis. None of the 27 remaining members electorates have voted against the 4 pillars, so why should the 27 vote to give them up for the UK?

This is the cake and eat it approach. The UK want their democracy adhered to, even if that means going above the democracy of 27 other countries.

Taytoland

Donald Trump wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

The question was should the UK remain or leave the EU. The majority voted to leave. After many months of debate, that is the decision the electorate came to. Seems pretty obvious to me. In England alone remain gathered 13,266,996, leave gathered 15,188,406.

Well then it's clear. Just go. Nothing stopping you. Just go.


EU is giving you what you want so walk away and stop wasting everybodies time.

We will be. As a Trump supporter you would think you support Brexit.

blinding

Taytoland wrote: »

It's just a cop out from people to try and explain why the pro EU side got a hiding in one of the most important votes in British history. It helps them not having to answer why so many working class people voted to leave. The racism accusation is just a myth.






http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/
If you can just dismiss the vote on racism it's just so much easier to dismiss it, not have to analyze it or learn from it.

Excellent Post .

Donald Trump

Taytoland wrote: »

We will be. As a Trump supporter you would think you support Brexit.

Just go. Don't be wasting your time with transition periods or anything like that. 19th March or whatever it is next year. Out the door and close it behind you. Do whatever you want to the young working Polish living there and get ready to take back all your retirees clogging up Spanish health care system out on the Costa.


Go and make your mythical bilateral trade deals around the world.


Just do it and stop annoying the rest of us.

Taytoland

Taytoland wrote: »

We will be. As a Trump supporter you would think you support Brexit.

Tbf, America has a lot of similarities to the EU. The only EU European country more similar would likely be the UK.

blinding

Donald Trump wrote: »

Just go. Don't be wasting your time with transition periods or anything like that. 19th March or whatever it is next year. Out the door and close it behind you. Do whatever you want to the young working Polish living there and get ready to take back all your retirees clogging up Spanish health care system out on the Costa.


Go and make your mythical bilateral trade deals around the world.


Just do it and stop annoying the rest of us.

You are taking it bad . Don’t worry the Eu will look after the 26 Counties .

Donald Trump

Taytoland wrote: »

It's just a cop out from people to try and explain why the pro EU side got a hiding in one of the most important votes in British history. It helps them not having to answer why so many working class people voted to leave. The racism accusation is just a myth.






http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/
If you can just dismiss the vote on racism it's just so much easier to dismiss it, not have to analyze it or learn from it.

Not sure what those stats are proving.


The UK has lots of Asians who have been living there for a few generations now.


The fact that they might also hate Polish people doesn't disprove racism.

The Rape of Lucretia

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well then it's clear. Just go. Nothing stopping you. Just go.


EU is giving you what you want so walk away and stop wasting everybodies time.

Just settle your 40Bn debt on your way though.

Spook_ie

dav3 wrote: »

True. 53.4% voted to leave in England.

55.8% voted to remain in the North of Ireland.

A United Ireland it is so. Good luck to England and Wales in the future. They're going to need it.

It's not a regional vote, if 100% of the North of Ireland had voted to remain it's likely to have been a yes vote overall.

Donald Trump

blinding wrote: »

You are taking it bad . Don’t worry the Eu will look after the 26 Counties .

No I don't care.


Happy to see the UK crash out.


It's fun to watch them self destruct.



The final extinguishing of the dying embers of the once "mighty empire"

BorneTobyWilde

Donald Trump wrote: »

Just FYI. You have that arseways (unless I did not read your message correctly). If 1 GBP goes to 2 USD then Americans will want to buy more stuff for them as it will be cheaper

Yea you have it wrong way around. I remember few years ago a pound got you two dollars. Some in UK bought a brand new Ford pickup out of US for what to them was 1/2 price. If truck was 40,000$ they got it for 20,000 pounds. Great value for the truck.
No one in US was looking for buy from UK though, a 40,000 vehicle in UK, and they'd have to pay 80,000 $ for it.

Junkyard Tom

Greentopia wrote: »

Sound logical refutation to my own points I made about the possibility of the DUP having power down here.

The largest religious denomination in the DUP is the 'Free Presbyterian' sect yet Free Presbyterians only make up 0.6% of the population of the north.

In a United Ireland FP's would be an utterly insignificant section of the population. A large majority of people in the north's views on social issues align with the rest of the country and are fairly liberal.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

Excellent Post .

You said the British people looked around them and voted to end immigration from the EU.

How do you explain that the lowest Leave votes were in constituencies with the highest immigration?

blinding

Donald Trump wrote: »

Not sure what those stats are proving.


The UK has lots of Asians who have been living there for a few generations now.


The fact that they might also hate Polish people doesn't disprove racism.

You don’t have to hate people to be against Mass Immigration . Its a perfectly acceptable Political position to hold .

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You said the British people looked around them and voted to end immigration from the EU.

How do you explain that the lowest Leave votes were in constituencies with the highest immigration?

If you have become a citizen then you could vote in the referendum . Correct me if I am wrong ! I suppose a certain amount of people may be married / in relationships with immigrants . perhaps landlords were doing well out of immigrants .

Taytoland

Donald Trump wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

We will be. As a Trump supporter you would think you support Brexit.

Just go. Don't be wasting your time with transition periods or anything like that. 19th March or whatever it is next year. Out the door and close it behind you. Do whatever you want to the young working Polish living there and get ready to take back all your retirees clogging up Spanish health care system out on the Costa.


Go and make your mythical bilateral trade deals around the world.


Just do it and stop annoying the rest of us.

If it was me in charge we would already have left, blame the politicians, not me.

Spook_ie

Donald Trump wrote: »

No.


There is a status quo. There is a system. EU are operating within that system. So too, still. are the UK. They will leave it next year but until then they are bound by the rules of the system. They are the ones leaving. Why on earth would the rest of the countries change the agreed-upon system at the behest of one single country that is leaving it anyway. That would be silly.


Ireland cannot negotiate it's own bilateral trade deals today as it is in the EU. As is France and Germany. As is the UK.



If the EU started negotiating before the triggering of Article 50, it still wouldn't be triggered. It would be going on for years and years and years. Until that was triggered, the UK were staying in the EU

When article 50 was triggered. The EU still were refusing to negotiate past the divorce costs, they were still refusing to allow the UK to negotiate/talk to other people until March of this year.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

If you have become a citizen then you could vote in the referendum . Correct me if I am wrong ! I suppose a certain amount of people may be married / in relationships with immigrants . perhaps landlords were doing well out of immigrants .

So they 'looked around' and saw 'citizens' not immigrants?

What were the people in the areas with the least immigration doing then, voting Leave? Which they did in huge numbers.

blinding

Taytoland wrote: »

If it was me in charge we would already have left, blame the politicians, not me.

Brexiteers just want to leave the Eu . Thats why they voted for Brexit .

The Eu is a Mad house re ; Mass Immigration . The Eastern European countries are not going to be pushed around re; Mass immigration .

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So they 'looked around' and saw 'citizens' not immigrants?

What were the people in the areas with the least immigration doing then, voting Leave? Which they did in huge numbers.

They do not want to see there areas becoming areas of Mass Immigration .

Spook_ie

Leroy42 wrote: »

On what basis. None of the 27 remaining members electorates have voted against the 4 pillars, so why should the 27 vote to give them up for the UK?

This is the cake and eat it approach. The UK want their democracy adhered to, even if that means going above the democracy of 27 other countries.

Yes EU cake and eat it, if the EU are so set on their intransigence of the 4 pillars then why wait nearly 2 years before allowing the UK to look elsewhere in parallel.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

They do not want to see there areas becoming areas of Mass Immigration .

But they just have to let them have citizenship - then no problem. Look at the areas that returned the lowest votes, as you say. They were low Leave votes because of they had naturalised immigrants.

You know your argument is bull****. Admit it.

The Rape of Lucretia

Taytoland wrote: »

If it was me in charge we would already have left, blame the politicians, not me.

Indeed. The politicians elected a Remain prime minister. Who, to her credit, is trying to limit the damage. The easy thing would have been to walk away, leave a Brexit PM to implement it, and end up with a worse situation. Voluntarily electing a fifth columnist to target as mild a Brexit as possible was quite bizarre behaviour. For her, its a lose lose situation, as she is seen to be betraying 'the will of the people' by giving away red lines and diluting what the true Brexiteers want, and by being the driver of Brexit at all, a betrayer of the remain side and as a hypocrite.
But in truth, such sacrifice is true leadership, and public service of the highest order. True recognition of her sacrifice for the good of her country will take time, and possibly only be really understood by a minority.

FrancieBrady

Spook_ie wrote: »

Yes EU cake and eat it, if the EU are so set on their intransigence of the 4 pillars then why wait nearly 2 years before allowing the UK to look elsewhere in parallel.

Why would you allow somebody you are negotiating a deal with get themselves into a stronger position?

This is senior hurling lads and lassies.

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But they just have to let them have citizenship - then no problem. Look at the areas that returned the lowest votes, as you say. They were low Leave votes because of they had naturalised immigrants.

You know your argument is bull****. Admit it.

Just because Immigrants become Citizens does not mean they have not Immigrated . It can still be Mass Immigration which I am entirely against and I mean Mass immigration of all types .

Taytoland

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

If it was me in charge we would already have left, blame the politicians, not me.

Indeed. The politicians elected a Remain prime minister. Who, to her credit, is trying to limit the damage. The easy thing would have been to walk away, leave a Brexit PM to implement it, and end up with a worse situation. Voluntarily electing a fifth columnist to target as mild a Brexit as possible was quite bizarre behaviour. For her, its a lose lose situation, as she is seen to be betraying 'the will of the people' by giving away red lines and diluting what the true Brexiteers want, and by being the driver of Brexit at all, a betrayer of the remain side and as a hypocrite.
But in truth, such sacrifice is true leadership, and public service of the highest order. True recognition of her sacrifice for the good of her country will take time, and possibly only be really understood by a minority.

If it was a different era Theresa May would be lucky to avoid the gallows.

Spook_ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would you allow somebody you are negotiating a deal with get themselves into a stronger position?

This is senior hurling lads and lassies.

But the EU aren't negotiating, as you said why would they change anything to suit one country, therefore they should never have restricted the UK from looking elsewhere for deals, the UK would have been 18 months closer than they were in March

Leroy42

Spook_ie wrote: »

But the EU aren't negotiating, as you said why would they change anything to suit one country, therefore they should never have restricted the UK from looking elsewhere for deals, the UK would have been 18 months closer than they were in March

They have given a number of options and agreed to allow the UK comtinued access to a number of instituations.

They gave concessions to Cameron. They gave the UK opt outs of the Euro. They gave them special rebates.

Sounds very much like negotiation to me.

I think you seem to think that negotiation means giving into to the other side. Doesn't work like that. Each side has their bottom lines.

I mean they even renogiated the December agreement after TM failed to stand up to the DUP (even though she was PM). The EU gace ground on that.

It is a total fallacy that the EU is not negotiating. THe problem is that the UK has no idea what it actually wants.

FrancieBrady

Spook_ie wrote: »

But the EU aren't negotiating, as you said why would they change anything to suit one country, therefore they should never have restricted the UK from looking elsewhere for deals, the UK would have been 18 months closer than they were in March

Because the UK have issues to deal with, that they must put in a legal framework.

Once they put something acceptable on the table (and they are trying..the White Paper etc) then they can move forward.

Nobody is going to roll over the clear procedures here that everybody knew from the get go.

The UK can play the victim all it wants.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

Just because Immigrants become Citizens does not mean they have not Immigrated .

:D:D:D

There is no answer to that. Crazy logic.

First Up

blinding wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

Not sure what those stats are proving.


The UK has lots of Asians who have been living there for a few generations now.


The fact that they might also hate Polish people doesn't disprove racism.

You don’t have to hate people to be against Mass Immigration . Its a perfectly acceptable Political position to hold .

Do you think California has suffered from mass immigration from Nebraska, New Jersey or Alabama? How do you differentiate "'mass immigration" from mobility of labour?

Twenty Grand

First Up wrote: »

Do you think California has suffered from mass immigration from Nebraska, New Jersey or Alabama? How do you differentiate "'mass immigration" from mobility of labour?

Sure that America is full of immigrants.

blinding

First Up wrote: »

Do you think California has suffered from mass immigration from Nebraska, New Jersey or Alabama? How do you differentiate "'mass immigration" from mobility of labour?

Mass Immigration is when very large numbers of people migrate in to a country .

blinding

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Sure that America is full of immigrants.

Sure is and very badly it turned out for the Indigenous People at that .:eek:

Taytoland

First Up wrote: »

blinding wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

Not sure what those stats are proving.


The UK has lots of Asians who have been living there for a few generations now.


The fact that they might also hate Polish people doesn't disprove racism.

You don’t have to hate people to be against Mass Immigration . Its a perfectly acceptable Political position to hold .

Do you think California has suffered from mass immigration from Nebraska, New Jersey or Alabama? How do you differentiate "'mass immigration" from mobility of labour?

Usually the damn Yankees are moving to the South to retire.

The Rape of Lucretia

blinding wrote: »

Mass Immigration is when very large numbers of people migrate in to a country .

'Immigrants' has a specialised use though, used by some to mean specifically people that they dont want to have moved to their country. Others, considered more acceptable, while technically, immigrants also, would not be considered immigrants in that specialised sense.

Donald Trump

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Yea you have it wrong way around. I remember few years ago a pound got you two dollars. Some in UK bought a brand new Ford pickup out of US for what to them was 1/2 price. If truck was 40,000$ they got it for 20,000 pounds. Great value for the truck.
No one in US was looking for buy from UK though, a 40,000 vehicle in UK, and they'd have to pay 80,000 $ for it.

Yeah sorry. I forgot what current rates were.


But in the practical sense, if UK exists, it's currency will depreciate not appreciate

The Rape of Lucretia

Taytoland wrote: »

If it was a different era Theresa May would be lucky to avoid the gallows.

Great deeds of courage can indeed bring great risk. Doing a good job of hobbling Brexit as far as possible, her undeserved penalty will be losing her job. But I am sure she will consider that a price well worth paying.

Donald Trump

Spook_ie wrote: »

When article 50 was triggered. The EU still were refusing to negotiate past the divorce costs, they were still refusing to allow the UK to negotiate/talk to other people until March of this year.

UK is still in the EU
EU members are not allowed to negotiate bilateral trade deals outside of the EU. That is simple and easy to understand.




EU were correct not to start negotiations until UK triggered Article 50. Else the UK would be able to drag the uncertainty on and on, to the detriment of the EU.


It would be like you going to your boss and saying "I plan to hand in my notice. But I'm not going to tell you when. And you can't fire me. But lets start discussing what you're going to give me when I leave"

Donald Trump

Taytoland wrote: »

If it was me in charge we would already have left, blame the politicians, not me.

Well I agree with you. It would be better for everyone if they just make up their mind.


Have real "red line" issues on both side. And if there isn't a possible combination that won't violate red lines for either side, then just accept it and move on to the new reality

Taytoland

Donald Trump wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

If it was me in charge we would already have left, blame the politicians, not me.

Well I agree with you. It would be better for everyone if they just make up their mind.


Have real "red line" issues on both side. And if there isn't a possible combination that won't violate red lines for either side, then just accept it and move on to the new reality

Absolutely agree. It's wasting everyone's time like you say.