Entitlement culture and the squeezed middle in Ireland

Creative83

It would seem that that the less well off have it very handy in terms of "entitlements" The Wealthy have it all, well, just because they are wealthy. Where do the middle class sit?


Is there a fundamental unfairness in Irish society today regarding the middle class?

Wanderer78

Leo has you covered, wouldn't worry about it now

Try_harder

Poor squeezed middle! Fiachra mightened get his ski holiday this year!

Twenty Grand

Creative83 wrote: »

Take a look at the State Benefits forum on here... lot's of threads, entitled to this and entitled to that... erm no you aren't!

But.. you are.

You're entitled to your tax credits, child benefit, sick pay and jsa/jsb if you need it.
You're as entitled as everyone else in this country.

The Rape of Lucretia

There is no squeezed middle. The middle class is doing quite nicely in a middle of the road, middling rich sort of way.

Anyone who regards themselves as part of a squeezed middle just hasnt woken up to the fact that they are working class, and too poor to be middle class. They are simply deluded. Wannabe middle class as it were.
Feeling squeezed ? Then you arent middle class in the first place.

The Crowman

Annnnnnnd its another AH dole thread.

MayoSalmon

Tax Credit.. oh wow thanks for giving me some "credit" back on my own hard earned wage that you thieved in the first place ...how gracious.

SEPT 23 1989

if you choose to self elevate yourself from your actual position in the working class to this "middle class" keeping up with the Jones nonsense you deserve to be squeezed

4ensic15

ireland has a lot of poor people who labour under the illusion that they are "middle class". Just because they have a mortgage and pay some income tax they think they should have it made. the real middle-class scoff quietly at them and occasionally pretend they are grateful to them for all their hard work, dedication and community spirit. The Working class openly laugh at them, working for a living and buying their own house and spending money on their childrens' education.

Chaos Tourist

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

There is no squeezed middle. The middle class is doing quite nicely in a middle of the road, middling rich sort of way.

Anyone who regards themselves as part of a squeezed middle just hasnt woken up to the fact that they are working class, and too poor to be middle class. They are simply deluded. Wannabe middle class as it were.
Feeling squeezed ? Then you arent middle class in the first place.

Indeed. Unless you're part of the professional class - doctors, solicitors etc - the real middle class - forget it.

It's a very nebulous term these days - deliberately put that way I think.

GarIT

What are people interpretation of middle class. I've hear different answers like, "anyone who works in an office", "anyone with a private pension", "anyone on a salary", "anyone on 30k", "anyone paying the ~40% tax" and "anyone on 60k or more" huge difference there, some people say 100k is above middle class others say 100k take home so about 190k is the upper limit.

Creative83

GarIT wrote: »

What are people interpretation of middle class. I've hear different answers like, "anyone who works in an office", "anyone with a private pension", "anyone on a salary", "anyone on 30k", "anyone paying the ~40% tax" and "anyone on 60k or more" huge difference there, some people say 100k is above middle class others say 100k take home so about 190k is the upper limit.

I think Leo said anyone above 28k

What, according to the denizens of After Hours, is the gross minimum salary an individual or couple must earn before they can be considered part of the "middle class"?

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

What, according to the denizens of After Hours, is the gross minimum salary an individual or couple must earn before they can be considered part of the "middle class"?

If you have to ask - you don't belong :pac:

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

What, according to the denizens of After Hours, is the gross minimum salary an individual or couple must earn before they can be considered part of the "middle class"?

80k each for a couple. 160k if only he is working.

100k suffices for singles to make the middle.

Nermal

GarIT wrote: »

What are people interpretation of middle class. I've hear different answers like, "anyone who works in an office", "anyone with a private pension", "anyone on a salary", "anyone on 30k", "anyone paying the ~40% tax" and "anyone on 60k or more" huge difference there, some people say 100k is above middle class others say 100k take home so about 190k is the upper limit.

As originally coined it referred to around the top 10%.

Though regardless of how rich I was I'd still resent the freeloaders, so I don't really see the relevance.

Capt'n Midnight

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Tax Credit.. oh wow thanks for giving me some "credit" back on my own hard earned wage that you thieved in the first place ...how gracious.

Today's word

Intaxication : - Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you realize it was your money to begin with.

The Rape of Lucretia

Creative83 wrote: »

Ok, that would be "upper middle class"... normal middle class would be a couple on 80k combined max

No, and thats the problem. They are simply middle class. Its the people on 50k or 80k combined, that think they are middle class, (but "squeezed"), but are in fact, working class.
Upper middle class is the several hundred k per year. Rich indeed, but having to keep working for it. And so below the level of the upper class, who can live without working at all.

Fann Linn

And all those 'squeezed middle' can flagellate themselves even more when the extra carbon taxes are added in October.

Leo certainly looks after the people who get outta their beds early.
Lol.

Twenty Grand

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

No, and thats the problem. They are simply middle class. Its the people on 50k or 80k combined, that think they are middle class, (but "squeezed"), but are in fact, working class.
Upper middle class is the several hundred k per year. Rich indeed, but having to keep working for it. And so below the level of the upper class, who can live without working at all.

Well Luas, IE and BE drivers regard themselves as working class and are getting into the 50k pa territory.

The Rape of Lucretia

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Well Luas, IE and BE drivers regard themselves as working class and are getting into the 50k pa territory.

Kudos to them for their realism, as they are indeed working class. If a BE driver isnt working class, then what is the world coming to ?

Twenty Grand

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Kudos to them for their realism, as they are indeed working class. If a BE driver isnt working class, then what is the world coming to ?

It's not all about wages though.

If a BE driver was earning 100k would they be working class.

Plenty of shift operators in pharma earninging that wage who would consider themselves working class.

KungPao

Does wearing a top hat make you upper class?

Hector Bellend

nice bit of an oul entitlement

Fann Linn

KungPao wrote: »

Does wearing a top hat make you upper class?

Only when you pass 'Go' and collect £200

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

80k each for a couple. 160k if only he is working.

100k suffices for singles to make the middle.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

No, and thats the problem. They are simply middle class. Its the people on 50k or 80k combined, that think they are middle class, (but "squeezed"), but are in fact, working class.
Upper middle class is the several hundred k per year. Rich indeed, but having to keep working for it. And so below the level of the upper class, who can live without working at all.

For a more accurate definition of middle class income in Ireland in 2018 PEW Research has the following calculator and analysis. You must put in your net income and household size:

Are you in the Irish middle class?

Cookie_Monster

Twenty Grand wrote: »

But.. you are.

You're entitled to your tax credits, child benefit, sick pay and jsa/jsb if you need it.
You're as entitled as everyone else in this country.

there are significant drawbacks in being able to qualify for that though...

Geuze

GarIT wrote: »

What are people interpretation of middle class. I've hear different answers like, "anyone who works in an office", "anyone with a private pension", "anyone on a salary", "anyone on 30k", "anyone paying the ~40% tax" and "anyone on 60k or more" huge difference there, some people say 100k is above middle class others say 100k take home so about 190k is the upper limit.

Three classes aren't enough to divide society.

30k is well below the mean and median earnings, so that is not middle class.

PlaneSpeeking

I used to be working class, until people (the the political parties who support them) starting using that term for people who don't work and have no intention of.

No idea what class to be now!

PlaneSpeeking

Geuze wrote: »

Three classes aren't enough to divide society.

30k is well below the mean and median earnings, so that is not middle class.

Agreed, I pay the higher rate in tax (only just) - and it has taken me 30 years graft to get here.

Apparently I am now "the 1%" and should pay for everything.

Suuuuuure.

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

I used to be working class, until people (the the political parties who support them) starting using that term for people who don't work and have no intention of.

If you consider yourself working class, you re working class, ignore others classification of such words, unemployment is actually complex

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

Apparently I am now "the 1%" and should pay for everything.

If you mean 'the 1%' of the wealthiest, you're probably not, you d more than likely would have to be born into wealth for that to occur, and would probably be paying a relatively smaller amount of tax than others

PlaneSpeeking

Wanderer78 wrote: »

If you mean 'the 1%' of the wealthiest, you're probably not, you d more than likely would have to be born into wealth for that to occur, and would probably be paying a relatively smaller amount of tax than others

No one has asked my dad for a dowry and I don't get paid till Monday and am skint, so I reckon am okay!!!

MayoSalmon

Wanderer78 wrote: »

If you mean 'the 1%' of the wealthiest, you're probably not, you d more than likely would have to be born into wealth for that to occur, and would probably be paying a relatively smaller amount of tax than others

:rolleyes: Sticks finger in the air....

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

No one has asked my dad for a dowry and I don't get paid till Monday and am skint, so I reckon am okay!!!

You should be proud of your class, and the fact you have worked hard to be where you are

Franz Von Peppercorn

Try_harder wrote: »

Poor squeezed middle! Fiachra mightened get his ski holiday this year!

That’s not the squeezed middle. The squeezed middle doesn’t holiday.

Wanderer78

MayoSalmon wrote:

Sticks finger in the air....

Ignoring reality is a good approach to life, please do continue....

Franz Von Peppercorn

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

There is no squeezed middle. The middle class is doing quite nicely in a middle of the road, middling rich sort of way.

Anyone who regards themselves as part of a squeezed middle just hasnt woken up to the fact that they are working class, and too poor to be middle class. They are simply deluded. Wannabe middle class as it were.
Feeling squeezed ? Then you arent middle class in the first place.

Yes. But the term middle income has never meant middle class in this country.

It’s an American version of “middle class” we have adopted.

PlaneSpeeking

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You should be proud of your class, and the fact you have worked hard to be where you are

I am actually, I started off in a council house that was infested with cockroaches (as was most of the town actually).

I worked from 18 and I'm near 49 now. I've never been on the dole - not that there is anything wrong with that - I just joined a temp agency and did whatever was needed.

Finally I have a decent salary and a nice (albeit rented) house.

I am proud of myself - but I have been told not to be!!! I ignore them mostly!

PlaneSpeeking

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s not the squeezed middle. The squeezed middle doesn’t holiday.

What's this "holiday" you talk of ?

Vague memories of Tunisia 12 years ago!

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

I am proud of myself - but I have been told not to be!!! I ignore them mostly!

Whoever is saying that to you, sound like some ****, fair play

Fann Linn

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

What's this "holiday" you talk of ?

Vague memories of Tunisia 12 years ago!

Kanta hotel 2006. I was there. A pity its all changed.
Happy memories also.

PlaneSpeeking

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Whoever is saying that to you, sound like some ****, fair play

In fairness, you're right - they are!

They are staunch Corbyn/Momentum supporters in the UK and think anyone who gets on in life is a class traitor.

My rented gaff is a bungalow (for the aul fella as he's 80 now) and you'd think i was hanging poor kids from washing lines!

PlaneSpeeking

Fann Linn wrote: »

Kanta hotel 2006. I was there. A pity its all changed.
Happy memories also.

Lovely place it was - I think after the shootings on the beach and other things, I'd not go there for love nor money.

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

They are staunch Corbyn/Momentum supporters in the UK and think anyone who gets on in life is a class traitor.

Im a proud lefty, so would have interest in Corbyn, I don't get that feeling from corbyns labour, what makes you think that?

PlaneSpeeking

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Im a proud lefty, so would have interest in Corbyn, I don't get that feeling from corbyns labour, what makes you think that?

I have a lot of time for JC himself, spoke very well in the last election debates.

But there are some supporters and indeed MPs who really take things too far. The Momentum movement within the party reminds me of the Militant crowd 30 years ago.

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

But there are some supporters and indeed MPs who really take things too far. The Momentum movement within the party reminds me of the Militant crowd 30 years ago.

UK politics is in a very interesting place, but equally worrying, there's a similar issue occuring across the pond to, we all sit and hope they can pull it together, for everyone's sake

PlaneSpeeking

Wanderer78 wrote: »

UK politics is in a very interesting place, but equally worrying, there's a similar issue occuring across the pond to, we all sit and hope they can pull it together, for everyone's sake

Agreed. I was briefly in the UK in 1997 for Blair's election win and the atmosphere of solidarity was incredible.

d'Oracle

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I used to be working class, until people (the the political parties who support them) starting using that term for people who don't work and have no intention of.

No idea what class to be now!

We need new language and probably political theory.
We insist on using language from the French and Industrial revolutions to describe a system that doesn't exist anymore in Ireland.

The working class , lower middle class and a lot of what you might consider to be the upper middle class is just a scale of earnings expectations and debt access. And in Ireland at least, there isn't really an Aristocracy. That's not the same thing as what Marx was talking about in the 19th century.

PlaneSpeeking

d'Oracle wrote: »

We need new language and probably political theory.
We insist on using language from the French and Industrial revolutions to describe a system that doesn't exist anymore in Ireland.

The working class , lower middle class (petit bourgeoise) and a lot of what you might consider to be the upper middle class is just a scale of earnings expectations and debt access. And in Ireland at least, there isn't really an Aristocracy. That's not the same thing as what Marx was talking about in the 19th century.

Oh I got called Bourgeois one time!!!

I was at a cricket match. Apparently that's all it takes!!

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

Agreed. I was briefly in the UK in 1997 for Blair's election win and the atmosphere of solidarity was incredible.

But was he truly that good? I'd actually agree with some of the momentum ideologies, things such as austerity simply don't work, this has been well researched now