Mountain Biking Forum

comanche_cor

My question was simply more of general routes that people tend to take if looking to do a long spin - e.g. starting in Balinantoe and heading over to Djouce. I was looking for similar ideas routes

IMO Coilte can go onto any of popular apps and go on a seek and destroy mission if they so chose. However, I think that erring on the side of caution and not publicly flaunting tails would be a wise decision. It must be gut wrenching for the trail builders to see tails being destroyed.

I am only getting back into biking again after a few years off and it seemed that years ago the attitude was changing and that the unofficial trails were tolerated once there were no jumps - has this changed?

rizzodun

I'm also against unofficial trail discussions to be honest. I'm saying this from being in a club that has trails to ride on agreement with the landowners.

However, if one thing is clear. There isn't a set meeting place online for people who have a shared interest in mountain biking, a central forum board may drum up enough people that instead of talk of unofficial trails, a more constructive discussion can be had about how people can band together and get support for opening more places for people to ride.

Tenzor07

steamsey wrote: »

With that said - clubs are not for everyone and clubs are where we tell people to go when they ask about trails. It can all seem quite closed off / exclusive to people who simply want to know where to ride their bike.
I think it's fine to discuss trails as long as we don't discuss the exact location. If people want to know where they are, they can ask (PMs, ask other riders when out on the bike etc). But at least by discussing them, discreetly, people can learn that they exist and find them in ways other than explicit directions on a public forum.

The intention is to help people get more out of their time on the bike.

I think you'll find most of the clubs I know, EPIC, IMBRC, MAD are all quite an open and friendly bunch with spins for every level of rider...

If they seem like they are "closed off" it's because being part of a club requires a bit of commitment, i.e. regularly showing up for spins and taking part in trail maintenance/clean up days etc. clubs are a group of mates also..

You hardly expect to show up out of the blue just to find out some of the trails they use and maintain, and the P-off to do your own thing? Then you'd have dozens of shredders skidding down trails which most clubs would discreetly and safely/responsibly use...

Plenty of public trails out there put there by Coillte which can be used by anyone...

bogmanfan

Absolutely agree with this. I know my own club were super welcoming to me when I joined a few years ago. We continue to run intro spins where most members make the effort to come out and welcome newbies to the sport.

On a side note, I know there's a bit of paranoia around discussing unofficial trails online, but if Coillte were minded to, they could just browse through youtube and easily find clear footage of the entry and exit points of every trail in the country.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I think you'll find most of the clubs I know, EPIC, IMBRC, MAD are all quite an open and friendly bunch with spins for every level of rider...

If they seem like they are "closed off" it's because being part of a club requires a bit of commitment, i.e. regularly showing up for spins and taking part in trail maintenance/clean up days etc. clubs are a group of mates also..

You hardly expect to show up out of the blue just to find out some of the trails they use and maintain, and the P-off to do your own thing? Then you'd have dozens of shredders skidding down trails which most clubs would discreetly and safely/responsibly use...

Plenty of public trails out there put there by Coillte which can be used by anyone...

Lemming

bogmanfan wrote: »

On a side note, I know there's a bit of paranoia around discussing unofficial trails online, but if Coillte were minded to, they could just browse through youtube and easily find clear footage of the entry and exit points of every trail in the country.

Coillte themselves wouldn't be the issue per-se, although a) you'd be a fool to think the local forestry managers don't know about most of these trails and b) there's no shortage of tools to use online for the matter. It would be - to my mind at least - more about not publicising such trails to every Tom, Dick, and Harry in such an open manner to the extent that someone will, with statistical inevitability, absolutely smear themselves over a trail followed by a legal case forcing Coillte to act out of necessity and no choice otherwise.

Tenzor07

Lemming wrote: »

Coillte themselves wouldn't be the issue per-se, although a) you'd be a fool to think the local forestry managers don't know about most of these trails and b) there's no shortage of tools to use online for the matter. It would be - to my mind at least - more about not publicising such trails to every Tom, Dick, and Harry in such an open manner to the extent that someone will, with statistical inevitability, absolutely smear themselves over a trail followed by a legal case forcing Coillte to act out of necessity and no choice otherwise.

Always make sure your Strava is set to private as opposed to public where anyone who can follow you...

JJJJNR

If people want to talk about local trails whats the problem, its a discussion board, big Coillte paranoia, its totally OTT. Have an open board without the outside intervention on how they did things, you guys messed up with your approach, there's plenty of other experienced people who can self moderate and don't need their opinion shut down because mistakes others have made. I have investigated trail building directly with Coillte and there is a direct process which I'm aware of with them.

Trails are ok to be discussed.

prunudo

Its a shame there arent more official mixed ability trails. The likes of Ballinastoe should have different options depending on skill level. We're so far behind Europe and even N.Ireland when it comes to embracing the potential of outdoor pursuits.

C3PO

jvan wrote: »

Its a shame there arent more official mixed ability trails. The likes of Ballinastoe should have different options depending on skill level. We're so far behind Europe and even N.Ireland when it comes to embracing the potential of outdoor pursuits.

True ... but we're way ahead of where we were 10 years ago!

JJJJNR

jvan wrote: »

Its a shame there arent more official mixed ability trails. The likes of Ballinastoe should have different options depending on skill level. We're so far behind Europe and even N.Ireland when it comes to embracing the potential of outdoor pursuits.

Exactly, but how does the sport make progress to there when opinions and discussions about such trails should "immediately banned".

I guess that's a roadie approach. :rolleyes:

prunudo

C3PO wrote: »

True ... but we're way ahead of where we were 10 years ago!

The likes of The Gap and Bikepark have improved the availability of whats out there but they're private entities. The official Ballinastoe 14km loop must be close on 10 years old if not more. There's definitely more users now than 10 years ago but I'm not sure the official facilities have progressed that much.
Unless there is money to be made I can't see Coillte or the councils investing in more trials.
Not singling out Ballinastoe but its local enough to me.

xxyyzz

To be honest, I know from personal experience that clubs have unofficial agreements with the landowners that they can build trails so long as they keep it under the radar, don't build any wooden structures like boardwalks etc and don't annoy other land users. This has been working for a long time but Strava has put these trails on the radar so every Tom Dick and Harry can now find them. This creates extra traffic on the trails, a lot of which can't handle them as they are natural so get destroyed with constant use during wet weather. Also, "strava" lines start appearing where people start cutting corners and eventually the trail turns into a straight line.

What I would suggest for the forum is that if someone wants info on a particular area, that they can be told which club or local builders to talk to and the person can contact them for info. Most clubs are only too happy to show people around. It usually turns into a good day out.

steamsey

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I think you'll find most of the clubs I know, EPIC, IMBRC, MAD are all quite an open and friendly bunch with spins for every level of rider...

If they seem like they are "closed off" it's because being part of a club requires a bit of commitment, i.e. regularly showing up for spins and taking part in trail maintenance/clean up days etc. clubs are a group of mates also..

You hardly expect to show up out of the blue just to find out some of the trails they use and maintain, and the P-off to do your own thing? Then you'd have dozens of shredders skidding down trails which most clubs would discreetly and safely/responsibly use...

Plenty of public trails out there put there by Coillte which can be used by anyone...

You "think I'll find"? I found out. I have an opinion. Been there, done that. I'm not sure why you're informing us that you can't just turn up out of the blue, find out about trails and P-off - surely this goes without saying and I didn't see anyone assert that this was the way to go about this.

My point here is that clubs (not just MTB clubs) are for people who like clubs. Not everyone wants to be in a club and this shouldn't preclude someone from enjoying their sport / having access to information about it. The point of this forum is to bring a bit more inclusion to it. I haven't said a word to knock clubs - all I've said is that they are not for everyone - no need to defend clubs and the value they bring - they're not under attack here and their contribution and value is irrefutable.

If you re-read what I wrote, I said "it can all seem a bit closed off" - I didn't say specifically that clubs are closed off. What I meant, and I should have been clearer, is that the information about MTB'ing, including trails etc can seem a bit closed off. I know this from my own experience and from talking to newbies who in some cases have a shockingly bad understanding of what they are doing. Now yes, they could join a club and accelerate their learning, but you have to concede that not everyone wants to be part of a club - regardless of the benefits. For those that do - you're right, there are intro spins and lots of ways to join and lots of friendly people too. And if people do join, they WILL learn a lot more than they otherwise would. No question there.

Basically - I don't think you should have to be part of a club to learn about trails. I'm challenging that old dogma that has long since felt wrong to me. Whether we discuss trails here or not here seems to be up for debate and I'm not advocating either.

steamsey

rizzodun wrote: »

I'm also against unofficial trail discussions to be honest. I'm saying this from being in a club that has trails to ride on agreement with the landowners.

However, if one thing is clear. There isn't a set meeting place online for people who have a shared interest in mountain biking, a central forum board may drum up enough people that instead of talk of unofficial trails, a more constructive discussion can be had about how people can band together and get support for opening more places for people to ride.

I think you're right on the money here - we need a central spot online to bring it all together

Macy0161

jvan wrote:

The official Ballinastoe 14km loop must be close on 10 years old if not more.

While the route hasn't changed, there's been a good bit of maintenance on it. I was off the MTB for a few years until this year and all the boardwalks gone, berms added, and definitely for me as a beginner (but I can see why not for more experienced people) it's been improved with the actual trail maintained and resurfaced. Probably only expressway doesn't seem to have had much done to it IMO.


I'd definitely plus 1 joining a club. I found them very open , helpful and encouraging (I joined mad). It was me who wasn't committed to off road!

C3PO

steamsey wrote: »

Basically - I don't think you should have to be part of a club to learn about trails.

But the vast majority of unofficial trails have been built and maintained by club members who work hard to keep them "under the radar" so that they are not destroyed by overuse. These trails are also used by members of other clubs on a "quid quo pro" basis! In this way a sustainable network of trails is maintained and, because of their responsible use, Coillte turn a blind eye!
Despite what a lot of the new breed of mtbers believe these trails did not just grow in the forests!

Weepsie

steamsey wrote: »

Basically - I don't think you should have to be part of a club to learn about trails. I'm challenging that old dogma that has long since felt wrong to me. Whether we discuss trails here or not here seems to be up for debate and I'm not advocating either.

It won't be up for debate as it will potentially create a tonne of hassle akin to doping discussion whenever the TdF rolls around.

Tenzor07

steamsey wrote: »

Basically - I don't think you should have to be part of a club to learn about trails. I'm challenging that old dogma that has long since felt wrong to me. Whether we discuss trails here or not here seems to be up for debate and I'm not advocating either.

Nope, sure as I said, plenty of Coillte built trails around Dublin, also in Ballyhoura, up the north you have Rostrevor.. Easy to find and don't need to be part of a club..

Keeks

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Always make sure your Strava is set to private as opposed to public where anyone who can follow you...

You don't need Strava......Funnily enough Coillte publish all their forest locations on their website.....there is at least one trail in every location....

Tenzor07

Keeks wrote: »

You don't need Strava......Funnily enough Coillte publish all their forest locations on their website.....there is at least one trail in every location....

Referring to Strava showing the unofficial trail routes...Not Coillte tracks.

Tenzor07

jvan wrote: »

There's definitely more users now than 10 years ago but I'm not sure the official facilities have progressed that much.
Unless there is money to be made I can't see Coillte or the councils investing in more trials.

The update to the Metro trails in Ticknock are great, though you're never going to get Gap jumps or tabletops on the Coillte trails, they basically build them so everyone from the young novice up can use them..
The new Coillte trails in the midlands that are currently being built will be meter wide "narrow fireroad" trails which i'm sure could easily be ridden on a Gravel bike...
Coillte will do the minimum required under the part of their "outdoor leisure" remit.

prunudo

Thats the point i was making though, i don't think the offical Coillte trails have improved that much in 10 years (I wouldn't class maintaining them as improving, thats just necessity). Coillte seem to think mountain biking consists of people going off on a leisurely cross country jaunt.
If its wasnt for the unofficial trails around the place there wouldnt be much for the enduro rider to be enjoying. Like I said its a shame that Coillte don't provide trail options rather than going with the mellow option that they seem to be focusing on.

xxyyzz

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The new Coillte trails in the midlands that are currently being built will be meter wide "narrow fireroad" trails which i'm sure could easily be ridden on a Gravel bike...
Coillte will do the minimum required under the part of their "outdoor leisure" remit.

Really, is that official? that's pretty depressing to hear. I'm surprised with Niall Davis involved that they will be even more sanitised than Ballyhoura.

Keeks

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Referring to Strava showing the unofficial trail routes...Not Coillte tracks.

Its not hard to find the unoffical trails......

Keeks

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Coillte will do the minimum required under the part of their "outdoor leisure" remit.

Coilte will put in facilities that will be available for the majority rather than minority.....

steamsey

Djouce Enduro

New forum should be up and running in few days but just to let people know, who are interested and didn't already know, that the Djouce Enduro takes place on Aug 25th/26th. It's not part of the official Gravity Enduros this year, it's part of the inaugural CYCLING IRELAND NATIONAL ENDURO CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Rules, format seem to be same as the Gravity Enduros. You can enter via cyclingireland.ie if you have a licence and want to feature in official results or otherwise seems OK to enter on the day.

Cracking venue for an Enduro and the tighter set up in last few years has made it even better.

Facebook link - https://www.facebook.com/events/194164671244561/

Johnny Jukebox

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to scout around a Coillte forest and follow the tyre marks... or spot what look like promising openings in the trees and follow them down.

Google earth/maps are also very enlightening.

Anyway, trails come and go....

Icyseanfitz

love my bit of mtbing and trail building but ireland is an odd place for it outside sanctioned/private trails, theres so much fear that trails will be destroyed/banned that the locations are held as a big deep secret by clubs and locals.
Its understandable but unfortunately its not conducive to growth in the sport as people just use the coilte trails to start off and get bored. The only way i see it getting better is to completely reveal all trails to the public in the hope that the numbers mtbing get so big that coilte/rangers etc cant just close them without massive backlash.
But then that leads to the problem of trail maintenance i suppose of which there isnt an easy solution with our climate unfortunately.

I myself am part of mtb club and numerous whatsapp/facebook groups but would generally prefer to go out with a small group of friends or by myself, find with bigger groups your either waiting too much or holding people up too much, which again hidden trail dont help as people have to be shown where to go. Also people love to see others make an arse out of themselves

Id be of the opinion that people should be savvy in the new forum, dont kill trail discussion outright, without trails there is no mtbing, Use PM's or direct people to other people when looking for trail locations etc.

steamsey

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

love my bit of mtbing and trail building but ireland is an odd place for it outside sanctioned/private trails, theres so much fear that trails will be destroyed/banned that the locations are held as a big deep secret by clubs and locals.
Its understandable but unfortunately its not conducive to growth in the sport as people just use the coilte trails to start off and get bored. The only way i see it getting better is to completely reveal all trails to the public in the hope that the numbers mtbing get so big that coilte/rangers etc cant just close them without massive backlash.
But then that leads to the problem of trail maintenance i suppose of which there isnt an easy solution with our climate unfortunately.

I myself am part of mtb club and numerous whatsapp/facebook groups but would generally prefer to go out with a small group of friends or by myself, find with bigger groups your either waiting too much or holding people up too much, which again hidden trail dont help as people have to be shown where to go. Also people love to see others make an arse out of themselves

Id be of the opinion that people should be savvy in the new forum, dont kill trail discussion outright, without trails there is no mtbing, Use PM's or direct people to other people when looking for trail locations etc.

I'm with you on a lot of this. I don't like the fact that clubs are (at least seen as) the gatekeepers to trails.

I also prefer smaller groups or solo for rides. Big groups = massive delays.

The fear of backlash might be largely based on paranoia - maybe a healthy paranoia mind you, but as you say, as long as people are savvy here it should be fine and I agree - we shouldn't kill the discussion outright. It's complex and we also have to consider private landowners.

While I like your radical sentiment to reveal all trails to everyone (and I've long thought of it myself), many will disagree which doesn't mean you're wrong, but we have to consider potential repercussions.

Many have grown up with the mentality that trails are to be kept secret, and had this bet into them at every turn so there's that to overcome too.

I wonder how they deal with this in other countries?

prunudo

I wonder is this secrecy from fear of the trails getting over used or from them being found out and being taken apart by forestry workers?