Mountain Biking Forum

Icyseanfitz

jvan wrote: »

I wonder is this secrecy from fear of the trails getting over used or from them being found out and being taken apart by forestry workers?

It's both, people are very protective of trails theve put hours of labor into.

prunudo

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

It's both, people are very protective of trails theve put hours of labor into.

I'd get a sense of achievement from other people enjoying my creation, once they weren't destroying it.

xxyyzz

This, no better feeling than getting a thumbs up from fellow mtbers for a trail you built but nothing worse than seeing it relentlessly ploughed all winter and leaving nothing but a ball of rocks and roots the following year. It's a pain in the ass also when someone takes it upon themselves to create a strava segment on it without asking you first.

magicbastarder

jvan wrote: »

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

It's both, people are very protective of trails theve put hours of labor into.

I'd get a sense of achievement from other people enjoying my creation, once they weren't destroying it.

It'd also be nice for them to contribute to something they were benefiting from, though?

steamsey

magicbastarder wrote: »

It'd also be nice for them to contribute to something they were benefiting from, though?

And maybe this forum will provide them with the means or incentive to help out. Not everyone knows how to - but I'm sure plenty would be willing to if given the chance

Lemming

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

The only way i see it getting better is to completely reveal all trails to the public in the hope that the numbers mtbing get so big that coilte/rangers etc cant just close them without massive backlash.

But then that leads to the problem of trail maintenance i suppose of which there isnt an easy solution with our climate unfortunately.

Two things here; firstly with increased public knowledge comes increased risk of obstruction & sabotage. It's an uncommon but very real reality here in the UK, between some exceedingly militant hill-walker sorts to the fruit-loops (again some of which inhabit the former group) carrying out trail vandalism and sabotage with intent to cause injury.

The above might sound a little bit paranoid; it's not intended to be, rather food for thought on throwing everything out there for all to know about & consume. In short, be careful what you wish for.

Secondly; speaking as someone who volunteers to maintain local official trails in Sheffield, trail maintenance takes effort. And that's even when the trails are built well in the first place, able to take a beating. Trail building - done right - costs multiples of tens of thousands and a lot of time, and that's before any local "interests" try to obstruct at either a planning, building, or operational stage. Sheffield has thankfully been blessed with land/council parties who are not only not hostile but also quite supportive. By contrast Nottingham (next door, and overlapping some of the Peaks District) has had constant uphill battles.

So having said that, and knowing what I know, I can see why clubs guard trails. Not least because they don't want to p1ss off land-owners who gave them permission, but because most clubs just would not have the funding resources to build trails to a degree that they can take a pounding before any remedial action is needed. If everyone else is using "their" trail too and not putting back into it, it'll just eventually fall apart.

steamsey wrote: »

The fear of backlash might be largely based on paranoia - maybe a healthy paranoia mind you, but as you say, as long as people are savvy here it should be fine and I agree - we shouldn't kill the discussion outright. It's complex and we also have to consider private landowners.

While I like your radical sentiment to reveal all trails to everyone (and I've long thought of it myself), many will disagree which doesn't mean you're wrong, but we have to consider potential repercussions.

Many have grown up with the mentality that trails are to be kept secret, and had this bet into them at every turn so there's that to overcome too.

I wonder how they deal with this in other countries?

See my above comments about public knowledge.

I could direct you to look at the USA as a worst-case scenario for what happens when unofficial trails are made "public", even by accident via Strava. Entire geographical regions, including several of the national parks, are now no-go from a legal point of view. Just to be clear, that's not a "legal" as in "who is going to care" sort of way, it's park rangers (who have the power to arrest & sieze in the US) and/or other law enforcement agencies actively looking to stop you. On top of that, some of the oldest, historical areas for mountain biking in the US, such as Marin County, California (which belongs besides names such as Mammoth mtn, and Big Bear, all in Ca) have seen mtb'ers treated as personae non gratae due to some of the local, incredibly wealthy and pensionable landed gentry.

And before anyone comments on the US being full of crazy people and that couldn't happen this side of the Atlantic, I shall point you at Wales, where vested interests have recently successfully prevented access being granted to cyclists [ref. openmtb.org.uk] thus opening up more of the country side, despite a consultation period that saw overwhelmingly positive feedback for such a move.

The point of all of this is; just because you can doesn't mean you should. There is a cost to everything. Publicity brings more people, which can be good, but can also be bad. It brings the enthusiast, the novice, and also brings out the cranks and crazies who think nothing of building punji stake traps after jumps (I do not exaggerate, one was found in England about a year or two ago) or throwing money and solicitors at what they perceive as unwanted persons in "their backyard". For all of the potential horror stories that may (not) arise, the biggest detraction in publicity though, is simple trail wear & tear where trails are either not suitable for such a volume of traffic, or people are riding in such a manner that is causing excessive wear (e.g. roosting corners, etc.), or the weather has left trails in a state not suitable for riding, but people ride them anyway rather than exercise some common sense.

C3PO

Really well put Lemming - thank you!

xxyyzz

Lemming wrote: »

There is a cost to everything. Publicity brings more people, which can be good, but can also be bad. It brings the enthusiast, the novice, and also brings out the cranks and crazies who think nothing of building punji stake traps after jumps (I do not exaggerate, one was found in England about a year or two ago)

This is very true, at one of the trails near me the lads who built it found the spike from a pickaxe head partially buried at the foot of a jump.

steamsey

Lemming - you just scared the sh*t out of me. We had a malignant log / rock dropper here at one stage and I nearly fell foul of his handiwork a few times but I think he was dealt with by the police and haven't seen anything sinister in many years. Would hate to see anything like that repeat itself - or worse - so your comments are well heard.

bogmanfan

Speaking of trails getting wrecked through overuse, wasn't there a Facebook camaign a few years back, trying to get people to ease off on natural trails during the winter? I know the Coillte trails can be a bit dull, but at least they stand up to lots of traffic during bad weather. Some of the unofficial ones around are pure mudfests for the winter, yet still seem to see plenty of traffic. Would be of benefit to everyone if the worst hit ones were 'embargoed' for a couple of months every year.

rizzodun

bogmanfan wrote: »

Speaking of trails getting wrecked through overuse, wasn't there a Facebook camaign a few years back, trying to get people to ease off on natural trails during the winter? I know the Coillte trails can be a bit dull, but at least they stand up to lots of traffic during bad weather. Some of the unofficial ones around are pure mudfests for the winter, yet still seem to see plenty of traffic. Would be of benefit to everyone if the worst hit ones were 'embargoed' for a couple of months every year.

In fairness, as Lemming alluded to, the problem is the lack of effort of people to maintain the trails. Our trails are all completely natural, and they do get muddy during the winter, but we found last winter that constantly sweeping the dead leaves off the trail allowed them to dry out quicker and hold up a lot better to abuse.

Trail building is back breaking work, try pushing barrows full of gravel uphill for 100 to 200m over roots and rock drops, then you understand why suddenly when work needs to be done everyone disappears. No wonder some people are protective of their work.

Lemming

bogmanfan wrote: »

Speaking of trails getting wrecked through overuse, wasn't there a Facebook camaign a few years back, trying to get people to ease off on natural trails during the winter? I know the Coillte trails can be a bit dull, but at least they stand up to lots of traffic during bad weather. Some of the unofficial ones around are pure mudfests for the winter, yet still seem to see plenty of traffic. Would be of benefit to everyone if the worst hit ones were 'embargoed' for a couple of months every year.

rizzodun wrote: »

In fairness, as Lemming alluded to, the problem is the lack of effort of people to maintain the trails. Our trails are all completely natural, and they do get muddy during the winter, but we found last winter that constantly sweeping the dead leaves off the trail allowed them to dry out quicker and hold up a lot better to abuse.

You're both right. Ultimately, trail maintenance is the best course of action in an ideal world. Some trails are, perhaps, problematic in that they're in areas that are ecologically sensitive and not just used by mountain bikers. I can think of both man-made, and natural trails that have had local riding groups spread the word about avoiding them until the ground has a chance to firm up due to adverse weather and a mixture of people not paying attention to what they're riding in and where causing further damage. It does work, but you'll get limited mileage.

One of the man-made trails that I have carried out trail work on got work done on it, followed by snow, melt-water, then more subsequent heavy rain & snow so the maintenance work we had carried out only weeks before and thus not had a chance to bed in got absolutely trashed. Slop that resembled a bad case of diarrhea would be an apt visual description of bits of said trail. We were able to block off the entrance and exit to that trail. Even with that you still got selfish tossers riding it. By contrast there is a very well known and popular natural trail in the Peaks district that has a section occasionally referred to as the bog of doom. Can't close that, so best you can do is spread the word among the cycling community and hope the hill-walkers get fed up of soggy, muddy boots and the horsey folk decide to stay on drier pastures. There has been works in the planning for quite a while for that location because it is a sensitive area, so the only realistic current choice is to abstain until the ground firms up.

Tenzor07

bogmanfan wrote: »

Some of the unofficial ones around are pure mudfests for the winter, yet still seem to see plenty of traffic. Would be of benefit to everyone if the worst hit ones were 'embargoed' for a couple of months every year.

This is why it's of benefit to be in a club, the riders know which trails to avoid and let rest during the winter to let them recover...
However you've still plenty of Strava shredders who meet up via Whatsapp to skid down the trails brakes locked on 160mm+ Enduro bikes with big 2.6 tyres...all through the winter..

steamsey

Maybe one benefit to this forum, which I hadn't thought of, is that people can be alerted to stay off particular trails if they're in bad nick. I'm sure we'll have club members on here, so they could help let us know what to leave alone, a lot of it might be obvious to experienced riders, but maybe not to everyone so could be good to use this central point, i.e. this forum, to remind people.

ianobrien

For me, there are different types of mountain bikers from downhill folk through knobbly trail people to cross country. People prefer different things. There's some trails/routes that you would love and I'd hate. The forum will have to cater for all types.

I started off doing the trails in the Ballyhoura's but now spend more time with mates simply exploring in the mountains and forests with a map and GPS. We tend now to head out for a couple of hours, bring some food.and have a laugh. We have had to hike the bike, pick our way across a bog, cycle through a flooded gravel track, get lost etc but that's what I prefer. The one rule that we follow is the hillwalker motto of "leave no trace".

Then, I've encountered the idiots who ruined trails by their antics on bikes. I live close to Shippool Wood in Cork, so I headed down one evening after work on the bike. I got to the gate and Coillte had a sign saying "No Mountain Bikes". While turning around, a local spotted me and we got talking. There was some trails but some people came out from town, didn't stay on the marked paths and started cycling through young trees breaking them. They did a bit of damage to plants and new paths that had not settled. The result was no bikes and locals keep an eye out.

After that, I can see why people are afraid to broadcast a trail location if it's a good one. Then again, I have a few routes in North Cork that I like but would not suit a downhill or narrow trail shredder