Want 5 grand for free??

seamus

professore wrote: »

They claimed they had a contract with another hairdresser to send women to them, and that the guy / girl only said he/she/they were trans going out the door. I'd say that's perfectly possible. What's the burden of proof for a case like this?

The contract is irrelevant. That's a private agreement between two companies to engage in a cartel and break the law. That's not the customer's problem.

The burden of proof here is irrelevant because the barber admitted his policy of not cutting women's hair, which is a blatant breach of the equal status act.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Because there's a greater possibility of the person getting their hair cut not liking what they want.

A short back and sides is the same thing regardless of who is sitting in the seat.

If a male went into a hairdressers and asked for a perm I'd be pretty sure they'd be refused for a similar reason.

If they were, that'd be another slam dunk discrimination case.

"Are you capable of creating the hairstyle that the plaintiff was looking for?"

"Yes"

End of discussion.

Hector Savage

This transgender mental illness craze needs to be sorted ...

Mod: Banned.

Grayson

seamus wrote: »

The contract is irrelevant. That's a private agreement between two companies to engage in a cartel and break the law. That's not the customer's problem.

The burden of proof here is irrelevant because the barber admitted his policy of not cutting women's hair, which is a blatant breach of the equal status act.

A short back and sides is the same thing regardless of who is sitting in the seat.
If they were, that'd be another slam dunk discrimination case.

"Are you capable of creating the hairstyle that the plaintiff was looking for?"

"Yes"

End of discussion.

I mentioned earlier that when I had hair (I'm now bald), I went to hairdressers. Not a single one ever refused to cut my hair.

Grayson

Hector Savage wrote: »

This transgender mental illness craze needs to be sorted ...

It does. We need people to educate themselves and stop getting themselves in a tizzy everytime a news story about someone who's trans comes up. We need them to educate themselves and stop referring to trans people as mentally ill.

There's a certain type of snowflake poster here who gets triggered everytime they read a story about a trans person.

Lorelli!

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Because there's a greater possibility of the person getting their hair cut not liking what they want.


If a male went into a hairdressers and asked for a perm I'd be pretty sure they'd be refused for a similar reason.

In both cases the barber/hairdresser will be freaked.

seamus wrote: »

A short back and sides is the same thing regardless of who is sitting in the seat.
If they were, that'd be another slam dunk discrimination case.

"Are you capable of creating the hairstyle that the plaintiff was looking for?"

"Yes"

End of discussion.

Not sure what to think in the OP but you'd think he'd have just done his hair. I suppose he was confused and not sure what to do. I wonder what style he had his hair in when he went in.

Anyway I do get what you're saying Avatar. I was in a hairdressers where the clientele are always women afaik and a man walked in. You could see he was nervous but he went up to the hairdresser and he asked her if she would dye his hair. Now he was only something like mid forties, he had grey, salt and pepper hair and he was a good looking man.

She refused out flat and if I was a hairdresser I would have to because if she did his hair the way he wanted it, it would look awful. It can look very fake on men and brown hair dye nearly always looks unnatural and then it fades and he'd gets grey roots! You could tell it would just look bad on him and that's why she refused but would this be considered a "slam dunk" discrimination on the grounds of sex?

Hairdressers do refuse women like this as well like if you want to go blonde you have to do it in steps, you cant just go in with dark hair and come out beach blonde or if you went in with hair down to your butt a lot would refuse to give you a pixie cut etc

seamus

Grayson wrote: »

I mentioned earlier that when I had hair (I'm now bald), I went to hairdressers. Not a single one ever refused to cut my hair.

When I was a kid my Mum used to cut our hair (who's didn't?), but when I was kind of 12/13 I rebelled and insisted on a proper male shaved haircut to tame my crazy hair.
So she took me to the local Peter Mark, where she got her hair done, who told her that they had an agreement with barber five doors down that they'd never cut men's hair, and so off we went.

This well predated the equal status act anyway. But it's a practice that was common enough, and obviously some businesses are still illegally doing it.

Jack Moore

Avatar MIA wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber


They are trained to cut men's hair. It's like being an audi certified mechanic and being sued for refusing to service a Ford focus.

Yer wan is a man.

seamus

Lorelli! wrote: »

She refused out flat and if I was a hairdresser I would have to because if she did his hair the way he wanted it, it would look awful. It can look very fake on men and brown hair dye nearly always looks unnatural and then it fades and he'd gets grey roots! You could tell it would just look bad on him and that's why she refused but would this be considered a "slam dunk" discrimination on the grounds of sex?

No, but for the exact reason you give below:

Hairdressers do refuse women like this as well like if you want to go blonde you have to do it in steps, you cant just go in with dark hair and come out beach blonde or if you went in with hair down to your butt a lot would refuse to give you a pixie cut etc

If the hairdresser or barber can honestly say that they do not know how to do the job, then they can refuse. Same as if a woman walked into a barbers and asked to look like Cheryl Cole. The barber just has to say, "I have no fncking idea how to do that". That's not discrimination based on gender.

A bit like if I ride a motorbike into an Advanced Pitstop and ask for two new tyres, they'll say, "Sorry, I don't know how to do that", or, "We don't have any tyres for motorbikes". If I go in and ask for a bit of air in the tyres, they're not going to turn around and say, "We don't do motorbikes here". It's air in a tyre; the pressure is written on the sidewall.

(maybe not a great example, but you get the idea)

Atlantic Dawn

The barbers had a condition in their lease that they could only cut mens hair. He should have brought his original birth certificate with him to clear up any confusion.

Jack Moore

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The barbers had a condition in their lease that they could only cut mens hair. He should have brought his original birth certificate with him to clear up any confusion.

That would say he was a she.

seamus

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The barbers had a condition in their lease that they could only cut mens hair. He should have brought his original birth certificate with him to clear up any confusion.

That condition is illegal and any attempt to "fine" the barber would have failed in court.

You cannot sign an agreement to break the law and any portion of a contract which subsequently becomes illegal, is deemed null.

My undertaker refuses to bury me, even though I identify as dead :mad:

Seriously though, I think the barber probably thought he was bound by the agreement. I'm sure the population of female to male transgender in Ireland is pretty small, and I've never heard of a woman going to a barber (maybe they do?). So this was possibly the first time the scenario came up. I feel sorry for him - it sounds like his refusal was not because of any bias, but because of the agreement he felt bound by, and the judgement should have reflected that.

Grayson

seamus wrote: »

When I was a kid my Mum used to cut our hair (who's didn't?), but when I was kind of 12/13 I rebelled and insisted on a proper male shaved haircut to tame my crazy hair.
So she took me to the local Peter Mark, where she got her hair done, who told her that they had an agreement with barber five doors down that they'd never cut men's hair, and so off we went.

This well predated the equal status act anyway. But it's a practice that was common enough, and obviously some businesses are still illegally doing it.

That's nuts. I've never heard of anywhere having that agreement before.

btw, my Mum never cut our hair. I think she tried when i was a toddler and made such a bollox of it that she never tried again.

Grayson

seamus wrote: »

That condition is illegal and any attempt to "fine" the barber would have failed in court.

You cannot sign an agreement to break the law and any portion of a contract which subsequently becomes illegal, is deemed null.

Was it even in the lease?

The barbers also told the WRC that the barber in question was told when starting his job that the business lease prohibited the shop from cutting women’s hair.

The barber was told that it was in the lease, but I can't see anywhere that it says it's actually in the lease.

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

I feel sorry for him - it sounds like his refusal was not because of any bias, but because of the agreement he felt bound by, and the judgement should have reflected that.

I'm gonna throw the cat amongst the pigeons here.

Some posters might need to sit down for this.

The barber...


...is a woman.

No, I'm not joking.*

* However, the owner of the shop in this case is a woman. We don't actually know the gender of the barber who made the refusal, it's implied it was a man. He's probably just some poor fncker who didn't understand that he wasn't allowed to refuse

Lorelli!

seamus wrote: »

No, but for the exact reason you give below:

If the hairdresser or barber can honestly say that they do not know how to do the job, then they can refuse. Same as if a woman walked into a barbers and asked to look like Cheryl Cole. The barber just has to say, "I have no fncking idea how to do that". That's not discrimination based on gender.

It's not always necessarily that they cannot do the job though. Sometimes they will refuse because they feel that the client will not be happy with the outcome and then they will complain.

I do agree though that he should have just done that guys hair in that case but it depends on what hairstyle he went in with. He could have had a particularly feminine haircut at the time and the barber felt it was too drastic maybe and wasn't sure whether or not to go ahead.

Anyway he won his case so maybe it will make barbers/hairdressers more aware and look into their policies.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

I'm gonna throw the cat amongst the pigeons here.

Some posters might need to sit down for this.

The barber...


...is a woman.

No, I'm not joking.*

* However, the owner of the shop in this case is a woman. We don't actually know the gender of the barber who made the refusal, it's implied it was a man. He's probably just some poor fncker who didn't understand that he wasn't allowed to refuse

The barber was a man according to the article.

Mr McLoughlin said that he then informed the barber that he was transgender and a trans man.
He alleged the barber proceeded to shake his head ”.

seamus

Lorelli! wrote: »

It's not always necessarily that they cannot do the job though. Sometimes they will refuse because they feel that the client will not be happy with the outcome and then they will complain.

Isn't that the same thing?

"Can't meet client's expectations" = "Can't do the job".

Lorelli!

seamus wrote: »

Isn't that the same thing?

"Can't meet client's expectations" = "Can't do the job".

Not really the same thing. Going back to that bloke that wanted his hair dyed from grey to brown. A hairdresser could easily dye his hair but she refused because she knew it wouldn't look good but he didn't believe that. His expectations were to come out with brown hair.

If a woman with grey salt and pepper hair goes into a hairdressers and asks to have her hair dyed brown, it's pretty much a standard procedure and would be done in the majority of cases.

Do you understand why the hairdresser refused to do the man's hair? Was it discrimination and if you were the hairdresser, would you have done his hair?

seamus

You're going down a very specific route here, but if the hairdresser says it won't look good and the man disagrees, then she can either do it and then tell him to go jump when he argues, or she can tell him that she's not capable of giving him what he's looking for and refuse to do it.

At no stage does his gender ever need to come into it.

Lorelli!

seamus wrote: »

You're going down a very specific route here, but if the hairdresser says it won't look good and the man disagrees, then she can either do it and then tell him to go jump when he argues, or she can tell him that she's not capable of giving him what he's looking for and refuse to do it.

At no stage does his gender ever need to come into it.

Well I'm just pointing out that hairdressers are under quite a bit of pressure to meet clients expectations and they often have to consider a lot of other factors whether those are aknowleged or not and it's easy for them to make a mistake.

It's not always eh cut and dry

super_furry

Lorelli! wrote: »

It's not always eh cut and dry

You're just blowing hot air at this stage.

arybvtcw0eolkf

This happened to me on the 11th of this month.. I posted about it on FB for laugh, so I'l include the screen print here.

(I'm not transgendered or any of that ol'rubbish, and this isn't me in the photo either )



Yup, the girl refused to shave my head because I'm a man lol.

Could I be bothered suing?.. Couldn't be bothered, it gave me a laugh.

GingerLily

Kate Fast Spouse wrote: »

This happened to me on the 11th of this month.. I posted about it on FB for laugh, so I'l include the screen print here.

(I'm not transgendered or any of that ol'rubbish, and this isn't me in the photo either )



Yup, the girl refused to shave my head because I'm a man lol.

Could I be bothered suing?.. Couldn't be bothered, it gave me a laugh.

Did they have the actual equipment to shave your head? That's a good chance they weren't trained up shave hair.

Pelvis

GingerLily wrote: »

Did they have the actual equipment to shave your head? That's a good chance they weren't trained up shave hair.

Joke?

arybvtcw0eolkf

GingerLily wrote: »

Did they have the actual equipment to shave your head? That's a good chance they weren't trained up shave hair.

Did you read what was posted?.

"you can shave my head?.. "No, we're a ladies hair dressers".

Not.. "No, sorry we don't have the equipment or training to shave your head".

Now I'm all butt hurt that you can't feel my pain :mad:

aaakev

Kate Fast Spouse wrote: »

This happened to me on the 11th of this month.. I posted about it on FB for laugh, so I'l include the screen print here.

(I'm not transgendered or any of that ol'rubbish, and this isn't me in the photo either )



Yup, the girl refused to shave my head because I'm a man lol.

Could I be bothered suing?.. Couldn't be bothered, it gave me a laugh.

Id chip in for your legal fees to take this to court. These animals need to be held to account. Do you need a hug?

TheValeyard

aaakev wrote: »

Id chip in for your legal fees to take this to court. These animals need to be held to account. Do you need a hug?

Can Ive a hug, but ive no arms

Wheety

Love the barber doubling down in the Labour Court saying he did "not intend to treat the complainant in a less favourable manner, as [he] would treat all women in the same manner"

irishproduce

I hope hope her/ his future employers type their name into google after interview.
Just so they know who they are dealing with, you know.

super_furry

Wheety wrote: »

Love the barber doubling down in the Labour Court saying he did "not intend to treat the complainant in a less favourable manner, as [he] would treat all women in the same manner"

I suppose for five grand, he reckons he's bought the right to keep being a dick.

aaakev

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Can Ive a hug, but ive no arms

I wasn't asking for a hug back so that works

Grayson

irishproduce wrote: »

I hope hope her/ his future employers type their name into google after interview.
Just so they know who they are dealing with, you know.

Someone who knows their rights?