72 hour cold ferment dough - did I mess up already?

RonnieL

Hi folks,

Hopefully this is the right place for my question.

I have been making home made pizzas for a good while, and wanted to try a 72 hour cold bulk ferment (I think that's the right terminology!), because I heard it's meant to improve the flavor.

I used active dry yeast, and mixed it in warm (about 105f) water like I would normally do (when making dough for the same day). I mixed it in the stand mixer, put it in a plastic container and popped it in the fridge. That was yesterday evening and the dough had already doubled in size by this morning (first time I'd checked it), so it occured to me that maybe I shouldn't have used warm water?

Asking now in case I should cut my losses and start again!

THanks :-)

Dial Hard

RonnieL wrote: »

Asking now in case I should cut my losses and start again!

THanks :-)

I'd knock it back and still use this one rather than just chucking it in the bin, but next time, yes, use cold water. Alternatively, you can use just enough warm water to activate the yeast, but whatever the rest of the quantity of water you use in the recipe is, keep that cold.

RonnieL

Dial Hard wrote: »

I'd knock it back and still use this one rather than just chucking it in the bin, but next time, yes, use cold water. Alternatively, you can use just enough warm water to activate the yeast, but whatever the rest of the quantity of water you use in the recipe is, keep that cold.

Cheers for the quick response.

Just so I'm clear, are you saying to knock it back now, and put it back into the fridge for the rest of the 72 hours?

Dial Hard

RonnieL wrote: »

Just so I'm clear, are you saying to knock it back now, and put it back into the fridge for the rest of the 72 hours?

Yep.

Day Lewin

If you are going to leave dough standing for 72 hours, you need very little yeast: I'd recommend reducing the quantity. Use water just lukewarm enough to wake the yeast up; and if it seems to languish, knead it just a teeny bit to get in some extra oxygen.
In fairness, yeast doesn't love extreme temperatures; so putting it in a fridge during a spell of hot weather - while it will probably work - won't yield the same flavour as leaving in a cold room during the autumn or winter; fridges are drier, for one thing.

I'm interested: please tell us how it turns out?

rubadub

Day Lewin wrote: »

If you are going to leave dough standing for 72 hours, you need very little yeast: I'd recommend reducing the quantity.

Yes, any recipe I saw uses very little.

RonnieL wrote: »

a 72 hour cold bulk ferment (I think that's the right terminology!),

Term I hear most is "no knead", Jim Lahey has a popular one.

http://www.bakingsteel.com/blog/72-hour-pizza-dough

RonnieL

Day Lewin wrote: »

If you are going to leave dough standing for 72 hours, you need very little yeast: I'd recommend reducing the quantity. Use water just lukewarm enough to wake the yeast up; and if it seems to languish, knead it just a teeny bit to get in some extra oxygen.
In fairness, yeast doesn't love extreme temperatures; so putting it in a fridge during a spell of hot weather - while it will probably work - won't yield the same flavour as leaving in a cold room during the autumn or winter; fridges are drier, for one thing.

I'm interested: please tell us how it turns out?

I will!

Faith

I generally make pizza dough as normal and let it rise a bit at room temperature, then knock it back and put it into the fridge for as long as I can bear. I don't use any special recipes or adjust the amount of yeast. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I've not had any problems! Sometimes it still rises a lot, but it's about the flavour at the end of the day. It starts to smell really yeasty and beery after a couple of days, and is way easier to work with.

RonnieL

Thanks for the feedback folks. The dough worked out pretty well, although I think I should have taken it out of the fridge sooner as the balls didn't rise quite as much as I'd expected, so I fired them into the hot press for an extra half an hour to speed things along. I'm uploading photos from my phone, hopefully they post correctly. 

Muahahaha

Im drooling for pizza now and its not even midday=)

RonnieL

So next time I'm going to activate the yeast with a small amount of warm water, and the rest of the water will be cold, to avoid the dough rising so fast initially.

I have another question. I used to always kneed the dough by hand, but this time I used a stand mixed I'd bought in Aldi last year. I'd never used one before, and the dough quickly became wrapped around the hook, and pretty much just spun around for the 10 mins it was on, only barely touching the sides, if even. When I turned it off, the dough was pretty sticky, so I put in a few spoons more of flour and turned it on for another couple of mins, but the new flour just joined the mass wrapped around the hook. Afterwards I realised I probably should have intervened as soon as it became wrapped around the hook, because it can't have been getting kneaded properly, can it? Again, I've done a bit of googling on this, but can't find anything definitive. Any thoughts?

I've also seen some suggestions of an autolyse phase, which I didn't do - could that be related? does it help generally?

The pizzas did end up lovely, but the dough wasn't as workable/stretchy as I'd hoped, and tended to shrink back to a smaller size than I'd been going for.

I think I'm becoming a bit obsessed!

Muahahaha

RonnieL wrote: »

The pizzas did end up lovely, but the dough wasn't as workable/stretchy as I'd hoped, and tended to shrink back to a smaller size than I'd been going for.

I think I'm becoming a bit obsessed!

That problem is the bane of my pizza making and its also the problem which has me reaching for the rolling pin (which means no rising crusts, a disaster!). From my limited experience Ive found that you have only one chance to turn a pizza dough ball into a round disc, if you mess it up (by stretching the dough too much creating holes) then re-balling the dough and starting again will knock all the air out of it and as a result on attempt no.2 you will end up with a disc that keeps shrinking as soon as you have it stretched.

There are countless videos on Youtube about making pizzas and professional bakers all make it look simple as. For me though the best video was this one which explains the many mistakes people make in their attempts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV4gegZ7JNU

RonnieL

Muahahaha wrote: »

That problem is the bane of my pizza making and its also the problem which has me reaching for the rolling pin (which means no rising crusts, a disaster!). From my limited experience Ive found that you have only one chance to turn a pizza dough ball into a round disc, if you mess it up (by stretching the dough too much creating holes) then re-balling the dough and starting again will knock all the air out of it and as a result on attempt no.2 you will end up with a disc that keeps shrinking as soon as you have it stretched.

There are countless videos on Youtube about making pizzas and professional bakers all make it look simple as. For me though the best video was this one which explains the many mistakes people make in their attempts

Thanks for the reply. The "snap back" problem isn't a major concern for me - I think it was at least partly caused by the dough not being out of the fridge long enough because it seemed to be less of an issue for the last pizzas (I made 10). I just mentioned it in case it was maybe related to my stand mixer woes. I'd still like to hear if anyone has any tips on those. I'm thinking maybe if the dough gets wrapped around the hook next time, I'll stop it, pull it off the hook, and maybe add some flour?

rubadub

The 18-72hr recipes I saw had no kneading required, which was the only reason I was trying them. I saw lads saying they owned pizzerias and did these no knead recipes.

Faith

I too have that stand mixer issue and I can’t say I’ve ever solved it. Sometimes it doesn’t happen, sometimes I stop it every couple of minutes and pull it off and sometimes I just leave it go. I’d be really interested in what other people think too.

RonnieL

rubadub wrote: »

The 18-72hr recipes I saw had no kneading required, which was the only reason I was trying them. I saw lads saying they owned pizzerias and did these no knead recipes.

I've seen some of those alright. Definitely worth a try. My approach was kindof a hybrid approach of what I have always done, and what's described in the links below:

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2010/09/the-pizza-lab-how-long-should-i-let-my-dough-cold-ferment.html

https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/09/cold-fermented-fontina-parmigiano-and-oregano.html

Dizzyblonde

I find I have to loiter by the mixer and scrape the dough off the hook every now and then. Adding more flour just makes the dough too tough.

Whistlejacket

OP your pizza looks amazing!

RonnieL

Whistlejacket wrote: »

OP your pizza looks amazing!

Why thank you! I've enjoyed making homemade pizzas for the last few years - the kids love them, and I like trying different approaches - there are lots of tweaks to the process that can be made. Continuous improvement!

RonnieL

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

I find I have to loiter by the mixer and scrape the dough off the hook every now and then. Adding more flour just makes the dough too tough.

I had another go over the weekend, and the pizzas ended up lovely, and the dough was much more stretchy than my previous attempt, but I still had the problem with the dough climbing the hook in the mixer. It was also pretty sticky when I took it out of the mixer. In the end I just kneaded it a bit and it was grand. I definitely need to work on my mixer technique. Any tips welcome :-)

Dizzyblonde

RonnieL wrote: »

I had another go over the weekend, and the pizzas ended up lovely, and the dough was much more stretchy than my previous attempt, but I still had the problem with the dough climbing the hook in the mixer. It was also pretty sticky when I took it out of the mixer. In the end I just kneaded it a bit and it was grand. I definitely need to work on my mixer technique. Any tips welcome :-)

That's as much as I'd do - a bit of hand kneading at the end dries it a bit. If you're using a pizza foil and finding it hard to slide the pizza off, a sprinkling of dried semolina under the dough helps a lot.

RonnieL

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

That's as much as I'd do - a bit of hand kneading at the end dries it a bit. If you're using a pizza foil and finding it hard to slide the pizza off, a sprinkling of dried semolina under the dough helps a lot.

I use a peel to launch the pizzas, and I used semolina up to now, but I found in my new pizza oven (Uuni 3), the semolina burns and leaves a bit of a nasty taste on the base. I find a bit of flour works though, coupled with the occasional removal of burnt stuff from the pizza stone in the oven.

Anyway, thanks for the dough tips folks. I'm happy with the 72 hour cold ferment now. Ideally I'd like to stop the dough from climbing the hook in the mixer, so if anyone has any other thoughts on that I'm all ears, but overall I think I'm sorted.

Muahahaha

Not sure there is a solution to the dough hook problem really, I think its a matter of stopping the mix and scraping it off a couple of times. I dont have a stand mixer myself but any pizza recipie demos Ive seen on Youtube using a mixer the same problem happens, some vids show the person stopping it, scraping down and restarting. Others just edit it out but it looks to me that mixers all create the exact same problem.

In theory a plastic disc attached to the upper part of the dough hook like a guard would prevent it happening but until someone invents such a device then theres not much you can do except stop and scrape.

Thud

On the dough hook problem, start with a much wetter dough and add flour as needed.
I start with fresh yeast (Super Value bakery sell it from behind counter if you ask) and luke warn water in mixer, add a few scoops of flour and mix, add a few more scoops (and salt/oil if using) until it comes together loosely, then do your main mixing after a few mins add more flour until it comes to desired firmness. If putting in fridge for 24hrs+ i'd generally aim for a dryer/tighter dough as it will come out a bit looser, if using straight away leave it as wet as you can handle, bench flour will take away some of the wetness also. Drier doughs are easier to handle but you'll get less oven spring.
Sticking to an exact recipe isn't ideal as the humidity will affect the dough, you'll know what you are aiming for after a few tries/failures.

RonnieL

Thud wrote: »

On the dough hook problem, start with a much wetter dough and add flour as needed.
I start with fresh yeast (Super Value bakery sell it from behind counter if you ask) and luke warn water in mixer, add a few scoops of flour and mix, add a few more scoops (and salt/oil if using) until it comes together loosely, then do your main mixing after a few mins add more flour until it comes to desired firmness. If putting in fridge for 24hrs+ i'd generally aim for a dryer/tighter dough as it will come out a bit looser, if using straight away leave it as wet as you can handle, bench flour will take away some of the wetness also. Drier doughs are easier to handle but you'll get less oven spring.
Sticking to an exact recipe isn't ideal as the humidity will affect the dough, you'll know what you are aiming for after a few tries/failures.

Cheers for the reply. I've been starting with all the ingredients in the mixer, so I'll give the gradual approach a try.

The reason for my original post was I had used warm water (about 105f) in my mix, and it rose very quickly despite being put in the fridge as soon as I took it out of the mixer bowl. Since then I've had another go, and as suggested by another reply I used a small amount of 105f water to activate my dried yeast, and the rest of the water was cold. I found the dough was cooler to touch when I'd finished mixing, but it still rose pretty fast in the fridge (faster if anything). The pizzas came out lovely, so it's not a big deal, but I do keep reading about the improved flavour that a slow prove (or ferment) provides. My recipe has two sachets of dry active yeast for 1KG of flour. I saw a suggestion elsewhere that the amount of yeast can be reduced for a 72 hour bulk ferment. Any thoughts on whether that is the case, and how much yeast would be appropriate (I like the active dry stuff because I can have it in the press whenever I want to make dough).

Thud

I think you will get an initial rise in the fridge either way but it can be knocked back and rise again when you are bringing it up to room temp. I've left leftover dough in the fridge for a week and it will still rise when you take it out. On the yeast amount, i freeze my fresh yeast after a while and i think it loses some of its potency so add a bit extra depending on how old it is. The longer ferment will generally get ride of the yeasty taste

Muahahaha

On the yeast for a slow ferment in the fridge Ive always used slightly over one teaspoon of dried yeast per 500g flour and it has risen fine. First time I used the slow ferment technique I threw the whole sachet of yeast (7g iirc) into 500g of flour. I ended up with dough that stank worse than a brewery and had to throw it out.

Faith

Muahahaha wrote: »

On the yeast for a slow ferment in the fridge Ive always used slightly over one teaspoon of dried yeast per 500g flour and it has risen fine. First time I used the slow ferment technique I threw the whole sachet of yeast (7g iirc) into 500g of flour. I ended up with dough that stank worse than a brewery and had to throw it out.

Why did you throw it out?! That sounds like it would have been delicious.

Dial Hard

Faith wrote:

Why did you throw it out?! That sounds like it would have been delicious.

I was just about to say that!

Muahahaha

Faith wrote: »

Why did you throw it out?! That sounds like it would have been delicious.

When I got the massive bang of fermenting yeast from the fridge it just put me off.It was only then I copped Id used 7g of dried yeast for 500g flour, I figured it would taste like a pint of ale or something. It had 3/4 layers of tightly wrapped cling film covering it and it still stank out the place!

edit- I should add that in the above I was using the cold ferment technique and the dough was in the fridge for 4 days. There are many different variables in baking bread, you lose track of them all:o

RonnieL

Muahahaha wrote: »

When I got the massive bang of fermenting yeast from the fridge it just put me off.It was only then I copped Id used 7g of dried yeast for 500g flour, I figured it would taste like a pint of ale or something. It had 3/4 layers of tightly wrapped cling film covering it and it still stank out the place!

My recipe calls for 7g of dried yeast per 500g of flour, and it has worked out well. Having said that, I have been asking about whether I should reduce the amount of yeast for a 72 hour cold ferment. How much would you suggest? 7g for 1KG of flour?