Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker **Spoilers from post 2076**

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

I would disagree with your sentiments in general.

The presumption you make is that all fear is good or bad, it can be either.

The context of that conversation was about Anakins mother and his fear of losing her.It’s was that fear that led him to butcher sand people and allowed Papa Palpatine use that same fear of losing Padme death against him. It was pretty much integral to Anakins demise. Pure emotional responses to his fear of losing people he loved. The Sith are empowered by emotion.

Fear can lead to anger, hate and suffering. You need only look at zenophobia, racism, and many unfounded fears people have about people who are not like them. Look at brexit and Trump. Look how governments manipulate populations through fear. Fear is what dictators usually use to control their people.

No, Yoda put it in absolute.
Yoda says that you must not fear.

All emotions have positive and negative aspects. Star Wars make the forceful assertion that it's altogether bad

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

No, Yoda put it in absolute.
Yoda says that you must not fear.

All emotions have positive and negative aspects. Star Wars make the forceful assertion that it's altogether bad

But the entire folklore is based on Siths thriving on power driven from emotion and Jedi choosing a path of serenity and peace. If you are at peace and serene you aren’t fearful. You seem to be taking Yoda quite literally that Fear is bad but he’s talking to a potential Jedi. I’m not sure Yoda would be going around telling normal people in the SWs universe that fear will make them bad. But fear with powerful beings (Jedi/sith) or people with power is a very dangerous thing.

Which makes the Jedi cardboard.
They're not allowed love, get married, or have kids.

They're not serene, they're blank slates

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

So Luke was right.

Its time for the Jedi to end.

pixelburp

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So Luke was right.

Its time for the Jedi to end.

100% agreed with Luke's assessment. He tried to restart the Jedi order with the old ways, and it was a disaster. Not least because of his own hubris. There was a rumour leading up to Last Jedi that the thrust would be the "grey Jedi", those who embrace their emotions as a strength.

It's almost like trying to train children and teens to suppress their emotions, that they're a path to evil deeds, is a fundamentally bad idea!

The important question is though: Thanos Vs Vader?

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

pixelburp wrote: »

100% agreed with Luke's assessment. He tried to restart the Jedi order with the old ways, and it was a disaster. Not least because of his own hubris. There was a rumour leading up to Last Jedi that the thrust would be the "grey Jedi", those who embrace their emotions as a strength.

It's almost like trying to train children and teens to suppress their emotions, that they're a path to evil deeds, is a fundamentally bad idea!

The important question is though: Thanos Vs Vader?

I dunno. I think his bitterness about the Jedi drove him to start the order again but reform it his way. We don’t really know either way do we? I may be forgetting something

I’d say Vader. If you can’t get near your opponent cos he has the force and is crushing your windpipe it wouldn’t be much of a fight.

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

-^ he only seems bigger with failing Ben. And not seeing the darkness in him in time Not the academy failing.

cdgalwegian

pixelburp wrote: »

100% agreed with Luke's assessment. He tried to restart the Jedi order with the old ways, and it was a disaster. Not least because of his own hubris. There was a rumour leading up to Last Jedi that the thrust would be the "grey Jedi", those who embrace their emotions as a strength.

It's almost like trying to train children and teens to suppress their emotions, that they're a path to evil deeds, is a fundamentally bad idea! )

Yeah, how many thousands of years had the Jedi been in existence? The Last Jedi standing then figures out there was something fundamentally wrong, and says it has to end.
And then starts training Rey in the Force.
Consistency has never been a Star Wars strongpoint.

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

He didn’t train her at all though did he? One short lesson and he realises how powerful she is and how open to the dark and nope. I’m out.

The trailer for ix does have him saying we’ve taught you all we know. A thousand generations live in you now

So I’m hoping he’s had a change of heart and has been training her in ghost form.

Is there any other way to read that statement from him?

Notmything

Igotadose wrote: »

Oh we know that a single well-placed shot blows the whole thing up. Ya think the Borg'd have any problem making such a shot? I don't. Death Stars blow up way too easily.

Don't even need a shot, just transporter beam directly into the death star, sure even a few Borg drones could take over from within

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

Which makes the Jedi cardboard.
They're not allowed love, get married, or have kids.

They're not serene, they're blank slates

When you say cardboard, do you mean boring? I would imagine it takes a lot of practice , surrendering and self discipline to be a Jedi. Think of the Buddha (Yoda), very connected with the world in a way most of us can only dream about. Even listening to The Buddha is enlightening, if you actually listen to what he’s saying.

It makes them a very rigid order but so are a lot of religious ones, which I imagine is what inspired the Jedi. But Think Qui Gonn and Yoda, the clashed on Anakin and he clashed on many things with the Jedi council which was why he wasn’t on it. Wasn’t Mace Windu renowned for playing it close between dark and light?

cdgalwegian

Drumpot wrote: »

When you say cardboard, do you mean boring? I would imagine it takes a lot of practice , surrendering and self discipline to be a Jedi. Think of the Buddha (Yoda), very connected with the world in a way most of us can only dream about. Even listening to The Buddha is enlightening, if you actually listen to what he’s saying.

I think it's meant to convey detached from emotions, in order to be detached from the world, which begs the light-hearted question: What would be the point of existence at all? The point would be this world is really nothing at all- the 'next phase' of unity with 'the One', or the Force or whatever is of course nonsense to many, but that would be an ecumenical matter.

Tony EH

Red5 wrote: »

I don't like golf or cricket but I don't spend every day on forums telling people how bad they are. I have read through this thread and you keep popping with constant negativity and tedious comments about this and other star wars movies.

It's gets very boring. If you care so little again why are you here every day? It just come across as sad and pathetic.

After the trailers you post 'LOL'. Seriously? Are you 12 years old?

I speak for a lot of people when I say I can't wait for this. Nobody cares if you think brining the emperor back is nonsense. I watched the trailer with my 11 year old and he nearly jumped out of his seat when he heard the laugh at the end. He has always been his favourite character.

In the end that is what these movies are. FUN. Not to be taken too seriously. Watch them with the family, put on the popcorn and have the Craic.

If you can't find any enjoyment in these movies jog on and head to IFI for an art house movie. Or at least stop pretending like you don't care. It's getting very boring.

I'll post on any subject I like, how I like. If you want to cry about it, you know what you can do.

Drumpot

cdgalwegian wrote: »

Yeah, how many thousands of years had the Jedi been in existence? The Last Jedi standing then figures out there was something fundamentally wrong, and says it has to end.
And then starts training Rey in the Force.
Consistency has never been a Star Wars strongpoint.

Actually know at least one Jedi (Dooku) who knew something fundamentally wrong with the Jedi order. :pac:

But who better, then a Jedi who wasn’t brought up in the organized surroundings of the Jedi order. Luke was trained by a near death geriatric Yoda and a force ghost. Every Jedi luke Met in the OTs actually died in his presence!

I don’t think it’s that surprising that with such an isolated upbringing as a Jedi he had off or different ideas on the order.

Some of you are far too rigid in your interpretations and expectations. The jedis demise was partially down to their own hubris and ignorance, they were as fallible as men in the end. They tried to be something different and succeeded for a long time but totally misinterpreted a prophecy that probably made them complacent. On the Jedi council it generally looked like everything defaulted to Yodas guidance so why bother have a council?

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

cdgalwegian wrote: »

I think it's meant to convey detached from emotions, in order to be detached from the world, which begs the light-hearted question: What would be the point of existence at all? The point would be this world is really nothing at all- the 'next phase' of unity with 'the One', or the Force or whatever is of course nonsense to many, but that would be an ecumenical matter.

The cool ting is there’s other civilizations out there that have as many force users as the Jedi but they have different names for it (the tide on one planet) and use it in different ways with different dogmas or none at all.
Luke visits them to learn their ways in one of those new books

Drumpot

cdgalwegian wrote: »

I think it's meant to convey detached from emotions, in order to be detached from the world, which begs the light-hearted question: What would be the point of existence at all? The point would be this world is really nothing at all- the 'next phase' of unity with 'the One', or the Force or whatever is of course nonsense to many, but that would be an ecumenical matter.

Have you ever meditated? I’m not saying they are exactly the same thing but the idea is to ground your self into the now which is a teaching that the Jedi encourage. What was it Yoda said “

“A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away…to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing.”

That is effectively meditation. If you are depressed you are always looking to to past, if you are anxious you are always worried about the future!

“Always with you what cannot be done. Hear you nothing that I say?…You must unlearn what you have learned….Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.”

“Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.”

These are all pretty much Meditation or mindfulness which is healthy for alot of us. Ground yourself in the day and try not to get hung up on the future.

Tony EH

Drumpot wrote: »

I would disagree with your sentiments in general.

The presumption you make is that all fear is good or bad, it can be either.

Not to try an speak for Cork_exile, but I don't he's trying to make that case.

However, in the film, Yoda is.

He's speaking in absolutes, which probably makes him a sith, because...

Look, it was stupid line, in a sea of stupid lines. Quasi mystical claptrap dressed up as a philosophical musing that just doesn't work, if you unpack it even slightly.

Fear can be logical. Yoda's (and subsequently George Lucas') take is simply wrong.

cdgalwegian

Tony EH wrote: »

Not to try an speak for Cork_exile, but I don't he's trying to make that case.

However, in the film, Yoda is.

He's speaking in absolutes, which probably makes him a sith, because...

Look, it was stupid line, in a sea of stupid lines. Quasi mystical claptrap dressed up as a philosophical musing that just doesn't work, if you unpack it even slightly.

Fear can be logical. Yoda's (and subsequently George Lucas') take is simply wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Force
Creation for the original films
George Lucas created the concept of the Force to address character and plot developments in Star Wars (1977).[1] He also wanted to "awaken a certain kind of spirituality" in young audiences, suggesting a belief in God without endorsing any specific religion.[2] He developed the Force as a nondenominational religious concept, "distill[ed from] the essence of all religions", premised on the existence of God and distinct ideas of good and evil.[1] Lucas said that there is a conscious choice between good and bad, and "the world works better if you're on the good side".[3] In 1970s San Francisco, where Lucas lived when he wrote the drafts that became Star Wars, New Age ideas that incorporated the concept of qi and other notions of a mystical life-force were "in the air" and widely embraced.[4

Lucas is a film producer and director, and not a philosopher. The vague ideas he incorporated have taken on a life their own, leaving a mess in its wake. As per the thread title, I am interested to see if they do as good job of dealing with/tying up inconsistencies with, the Force, in the last film as they do with character arcs.

Drumpot

Tony EH wrote: »

Not to try an speak for Cork_exile, but I don't he's trying to make that case.

However, in the film, Yoda is.

He's speaking in absolutes, which probably makes him a sith, because...

Look, it was stupid line, in a sea of stupid lines. Quasi mystical claptrap dressed up as a philosophical musing that just doesn't work, if you unpack it even slightly.

Fear can be logical. Yoda's (and subsequently George Lucas') take is simply wrong.

Yoda is making the case for Jedis, not average Joe soaps. But the same could apply to powerful humans or people in our world with power. This is key. Ask yourself this “is a fearful powerful being/person more dangerous to the people who may rely or be protected by?”

I suppose I could quote another superhero “with great power , comes great responsibility”. Power in the hands of an emotional/fearful person is way more dangerous then a balanced individual. So the Jedi have recognized that discipline and sacrifice (love) is paramount to be a balanced person who can help the weak in a more objective , selfless manner.

In the SW universe fear and power create pain, suffering and anger just like in our world. Brexit and Trump are perfect examples of how fear can lead to all these issues.

Drumpot

cdgalwegian wrote: »

The vague ideas he incorporated have taken on a life their own, leaving a mess in its wake.

Genuinely curious, what mess do you mean? The medichlorian stuff?

Tony EH

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

To be fair he hasn’t even bothered watching the trailer by his own words and yet is hurling sh!t from the ditch saying it’s awful.

I haven't done this David. I don't know whether this film is awful or not.

I haven't watched the trailer, largely because I tend not to watch trailers these days after the first teaser. They give too much away. I like to watch films fresh and not have scenes spoiled for me but a bad trailer editor.

I won't watch the next trailer for 'The Mandalorian' either, if there is one and I'm very much looking forward to that.

However, it's true that I have long since given up on the sequel trilogy as a busted flush, and even if 'The Rise of Skywalker' is the greatest Star Wars film ever made, it's not going to fix the damage that has been done to the general, over all, story, as far as I'm concerned. So, I've dismissed these films, for what it's worth. I find it difficult to look at these films in isolation, even of it's possible to separate them by era. So, therefore, dropping a trilogy (prequel style) tends not to damage what I think is "good" Star Wars.

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Disrupts any conversation posters are trying to have and basically if you haven’t even bothered to watch what others are talking about why should anyone see it as anything but an annoyance from another angry internet prick.
Goes unchallenged and gets away Scott free for doing it. Must be the resident crank gets a pass. Every forum has one.

Just ignore.

Feel free to put me on ignore David, as I told you in your previous incarnation on these boards.

In the end, it doesn't matter what I say, in any case. YOU will decide what YOU are entertained by and I'll be entertained by what entertains me. That's how it works.

But these threads are for discussion. That discussion doesn't have to be a love in, though, and if you cannot take somebody's critical take on a film series that they've been watching since 1978, then in the immortal words of Red_5, "jog on".

As for going "unchallenged" and getting "away Scott free", what are you expecting here. That's a rhetorical question BTW, answer it in your own head.

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

Tony EH wrote: »

I haven't done this David. I don't know whether this film is awful or not.

I haven't watched the trailer, largely because I tend not to watch trailers these days after the first teaser. They give too much away. I like to watch films fresh and not have scenes spoiled for me but a bad trailer editor.

I won't watch the next trailer for 'The Mandalorian' either, if there is one and I'm very much looking forward to that.

However, it's true that I have long since given up on the sequel trilogy as a busted flush, and even if 'The Rise of Skywalker' is the greatest Star Wars film ever made, it's not going to fix the damage that has been done to the general, over all, story, as far as I'm concerned. So, I've dismissed these films, for what it's worth. I find it difficult to look at these films in isolation, even of it's possible to separate them by era. So, therefore, dropping a trilogy (prequel style) tends not to damage what I think is "good" Star Wars.



Feel free to put me on ignore David, as I told you in your previous incarnation on these boards.

In the end, it doesn't matter what I say, in any case. YOU will decide what YOU are entertained by and I'll be entertained by what entertains me. That's how it works.

But these threads are for discussion. That discussion doesn't have to be a love in, though, and if you cannot take somebody's critical take on a film series that they've been watching since 1978, then in the immortal words of Red_5, "jog on".

As for going "unchallenged" and getting "away Scott free", what are you expecting here. That's a rhetorical question BTW, answer it in your own head.

I don’t know I wouldn’t be commenting on anything without informing myself first. And it’s a two minute trailer. Not a huge time sink. Will you go see it though? You will of course.
Ps it’s Philip. Not David.

Tony EH

pixelburp wrote: »

100% agreed with Luke's assessment.

As much as I hated what Johnson did with Luke Skywalker in 'The Last Jedi', that assessment is fully agreeable.

Taken on the film's own merits, the Jedi have made monumental fuck ups, leading to a galaxy wide war and Imperial oppression for its numerous races. Not to mention the Jedi's own slaughter.

Luke's aborted attempt to rekindle the religion was an abject failure too, leading to a rerun of the events 50 years previously. <- although that's mostly down to shit writing and a complete lack of original ideas than anything else. :pac:

So, yes, it really is time for the Jedi to end. I think everyone in the galaxy will be glad to see the back of them.

cdgalwegian

Drumpot wrote: »

Genuinely curious, what mess do you mean? The medichlorian stuff?

Please forgive my quoting: it's been years since I've even considered any of this, but it has sparked my interest again.
A quick internet searches gives a nice example here, focusing on "the disconnect" of the religions syncretised, with emotion as the lynchpin:
http://popculturephilosopher.com/jedi-philosophy/

https://www.tor.com/2012/09/12/the-qtrue-nature-of-the-force-is-way-more-complicated-than-you-think/
For the record, Lucasfilm has stated officially (in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook) that the “correct” philosophy where the Force is concerned is the one held up by the Jedi Order in the prequels. It’s an awkward insistence at best since 1) this has not been confirmed in any other licensed material, 2) there are a plethora of fascinating perspectives on the Force that have been explored in the Expanded Universe novels, and 3) this sends a lot of poor messages where the Jedi are concerned, especially when you take into account their horrible handling of, well, everything in those three films.

These are just two examples of the philosophical mess that was inevitable, but not anything I would take very seriously. Despite much eye-rolling over the years, I have enjoyed all the post-original-trilogy films, to varying degrees. I'm looking forward to going to see TROS; visual spectacle guaranteed, character arcs ending satisfyingly, philosophical mumbo-jumbo minimized yet rounded off nicely.

Tony EH

Drumpot wrote: »

Yoda is making the case for Jedis, not average Joe soaps.

Perhaps. But it doesn't make his dodgy philosophy any less wrong. Fear doesn't always lead to anger, etc.

Fear can actually lead to a better understanding of something, if you allow it. Maybe Yoda just forgot the operative word in his sentence..."could".

Speaking in "absolutes" like this goes against the other faux philosophies in the order too, as "only a Sith deals in absolutes".

Which, ironically, is an absolutist statement in itself.

:pac:

Oh, the Jedi.

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

Tony EH wrote: »

As much as I hated what Johnson did with Luke Skywalker in 'The Last Jedi', that assessment is fully agreeable.

Taken on the film's own merits, the Jedi have made monumental fuck ups, leading to a galaxy wide war and Imperial oppression for its numerous races. Not to mention the Jedi's own slaughter.

Luke's aborted attempt to rekindle the religion was an abject failure too, leading to a rerun of the events 50 years previously. <- although that's mostly down to shit writing and a complete lack of original ideas than anything else. :pac:

So, yes, it really is time for the Jedi to end. I think everyone in the galaxy will be glad to see the back of them.

The Jedi didn’t create or instigate any of th conflict. Palpatine / Sidious did in order to take over. The Jedi were dragged into it. If they hadn’t been involved it would have just been Palpatine taking over much sooner. The blame doesn’t lie at their feet.
The real black that does is they were blind to him and his machinations right in front of them.
That’s the fvck up

Drumpot

Tony EH wrote: »

Perhaps. But it doesn't make his dodgy philosophy any less wrong. Fear doesn't always lead to anger, etc.

Fear can actually lead to a better understanding of something, if you allow it. Maybe Yoda just forgot the operative word in his sentence..."could".

Speaking in "absolutes" like this goes against the other faux philosophies in the order too, as "only a Sith deals in absolutes".

Which, ironically, is an absolutist statement in itself.

:pac:

Oh, the Jedi.

I think fear in the hands of a powerful person/Jedi is dangerous. You keep making the point it can be good but it’s dangerous in the hands of an undisciplined powerful person. So the Jedi have chosen to take it out of the equation.

And dealing in an absolute on the peaceful side of things is not the same as the negative side of things. Anakin has spoken about a dictatorship over everybody and that was Obi Wans response. Again I think you take what was said too literally and don’t allow for any ambiguity or extended interpretation. The Jedi often said what they felt the person needed to hear, remember how Obi Wan told Luke about his father dieing by Vader’s hands? Boy Anakin needed to know that he needed to shed the fear of his mum dieing to be a Jedi. His fear wasn’t healthy and would end up making him Vader, as Yoda predicted. Anakin was a broken slave child and he was told what he needed to be be told.

I know what you are saying, I just didn’t interpret everything as absolute (;)) or literal as you did.

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

Something not really mentioned is the timescale. You have in rogue one the force being very present despite no Jedi etc. it’s mentioned often they all believe even Gynn. She even has a kyber crystal.

Cut to force awakens and the empire is fallen but in a short time they had wiped out all knowledge of the Jedi and surpressed even talk of the force.
Heck it’s even a myth in a new hope as evidenced by that imperial saying to Vader its a sad old religion.

cdgalwegian

Chris Nolan needs to reboot Star Wars.:pac:

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

cdgalwegian wrote: »

Chris Nolan needs to reboot Star Wars.:pac:

I’d love him to do a stand-alone. Tackling the force. He’s the man for that job.