Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker **Spoilers from post 2076**

py2006

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx2jIjv5g-M

pixelburp

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

I enjoyed the new Rambo film and loved Joker as did the audience just look at the professional critics.

The Last Jedi was a mess and Ghostbusters 2016 was pure scutter as can backed up by the audiance score yet the critics say they are great.

And like I said, 3/5 - assuming the review even GIVES ratings which isn't a guarantee - is considered fresh and a positive in RT's scraping. "meh" is basically the same as "amazing" - that ain't right. So maybe, just maybe, professional criticism isn't something reduced to a percentage point. This isn't a silver bullet, just speaks to a disparity between the tastes of critics & the tastes of the audience.

edit: and that's before you get into the issue of scores being 'bombed' by those with an axe to grind, ala the run up toe Captain Marvel.

You're the one calling them shills, so it's yours to prove beyond throwing numbers and claiming Science is at play. You'd think by now, in the internet age, any shills or paid reviewing would be all over the net & proven.

And Ghostbusters was a mediocre movie, which a 75-50 split totally speaks to. Just because YOU thought it was scutter proves nothing, but we all know that that stupid film is a touchpoint for more than Sony's obsession with a box office hit.

johnny_ultimate

All of those scores (Ghostbusters maybe excepted, and even that doesn’t bother me) are why I’d trust critics over the audience score pretty much every time. They’re dead right on Joker, The Last Jedi and Rambo as far as I’m concerned. And I’m sad to report I’ve never been paid by a studio to say that.

Not to mention the RT audience score having been overtly manipulated by culture warriors on so many occasions that the site actually had to change their rules on it.

CinemaGuy45

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

All of those scores (Ghostbusters maybe excepted) are why I’d trust critics over the audience score pretty much every time. They’re dead right on Joker, The Last Jedi and Rambo as far as I’m concerned. And I’m sad to report I’ve never been paid by a studio to say that.

Not to mention the RT audience score having been overtly manipulated by culture warriors on so many occasions that the site actually had to change their rules on it.

We can agree to disagree but I arrived and my own opinions and it just seems the audience scores on Rotten Tomatoes are in line with my tastes.

I put on Ghostbusters 2016 never having read about any of the bad reception and I had to turn if off it was that bad.

The Feminist stuff in The Last Jedi went over my head on first viewing and Luke throwing the Sabre away did not annoy me but it was the first Star Wars movie I really did not enjoy it felt flat small even The Force Awakens had a bit of pace to it.

Rambo Last Blood was enjoyable we all know he is a one man army and it gets silly just like them all but for a Rambo movie it was not bad not as good at the first two but better then the 3rd and the 4th.

Joker was hands down the best film I have seen this year.

pixelburp

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

We can agree to disagree but I arrived and my own opinions and it just seems the audience scores on Rotten Tomatoes are in line with my tastes.

Which is a big difference from basically saying professional critics are shills 'cos the numbers are different and sites think a shoulder shrug is the same as a gold star.

Any system that let viewers rate films before they were even released - although that hole has since been plugged after the Captain Marvel farce - is inherently bullsh*t. Yet here we are again, leaning on the provenly false numbers as some Source of Truth.

And just from a statistician point of view, you can't say that an aggregation of 350 is the same as that of 110,000 - not with something inherently subjective as Film Criticism, where thought and nuance is lost into a big garbage reductionist algorithm.

I genuinely liked Last Jedi, think Rambo films are hot garbage and the Ghostbusters reboot was a mediocre film, not in the least bit offensive to anyone. Where's my cheque?

Holy shít, Ghostbusters is 3 years old already and people are still banging on about it.

1800_Ladladlad

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

Venom wrote: »

I think most Star Wars fans weren't happy with TLJ and Solo to varying degree's but I really doubt they are hoping for the franchise to fail. The critics of the last two moives are cheering on the Mandalorian and looking forward to the return of the Clone Wars Obi Wan show. Until the film is out we won't know if the "leaks" are true but the leaks for the last Terminator movie were bang on the money when it came to the plot.

Well, I will be dooing everything I can to avoid plot leaks for Obi-Wan series. Iv always wanted that character to be explored and be out on their own. Im looking forward to it and the Mandalorian has been outstanding to far. Maybe fail was the wrong choice of word but there are fans who are a little too involved in the saga and feel disgruntled because of TLJ. TLJ was piss poor because of many reasons that near most SW fans share. I know I hated TLJ but Im egging on JJ to change my mind and prove me wrong that the sequelogy is not utterly f*cked. I want to see what he does with it.

johnny_ultimate

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Joker was hands down the best film I have seen this year.

Happy to hear that. Personally I saw around 60 or 70 new films this year I’d rank above it so I wouldn’t share the same enthusiasm.

Rambo I thought was a steaming pile of worthless **** so would very much side with the critics on that.

And the Last Jedi is my favourite Star Wars film.

So, as said, opinions can deviate wildly from person to person.

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

We can agree to disagree but I arrived and my own opinions and it just seems the audience scores on Rotten Tomatoes are in line with my tastes.

I put on Ghostbusters 2016 never having read about any of the bad reception and I had to turn if off it was that bad.

The Feminist stuff in The Last Jedi went over my head on first viewing and Luke throwing the Sabre away did not annoy me but it was the first Star Wars movie I really did not enjoy it felt flat small even The Force Awakens had a bit of pace to it.

Rambo Last Blood was enjoyable we all know he is a one man army and it gets silly just like them all but for a Rambo movie it was not bad not as good at the first two but better then the 3rd and the 4th.

Joker was hands down the best film I have seen this year.

You can ignore the fact that many films have been targeted on that site by sh!t bomb reviews by new accounts often in the last before the film is even released, but hey it lines up with your taste.

Cmon you’re better than that. We all should be.
RT is no gauge on anything. It’s for the mindless if they’re using it before deciding to see a film or not.
True sheeple tool. And so easily manipulated by those with bad intentions how can it even be trusted anymore?

pixelburp

As far as I was concerned Captain Marvel was the farce that put an end to any lingering thought those aggregators have a leg to stand on. Bad enough their scoring was already suspect, but review bombing by keyboard warriors for a film not even released? To hell with the audience score IMO.

Yet it's the professionals, whose livelihood & careers are spent cultivating a sense of authority or trustworthiness in penning some thoughts on disposable, ephemeral entertainment, are the ones not to be trusted? But we believe random strangers whose bona fides are totally unknown - and likely as dodgy as YouTube comment? PFfh

CinemaGuy45

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You can ignore the fact that many films have been targeted on that site by sh!t bomb reviews by new accounts often in the last before the film is even released, but hey it lines up with your taste.

Cmon you’re better than that. We all should be.
RT is no gauge on anything. It’s for the mindless if they’re using it before deciding to see a film or not.
True sheeple tool. And so easily manipulated by those with bad intentions how can it even be trusted anymore?

Another metric is box office take.

Solo flopped hard and I do acknowledge Rambo Last Blood also flopped.

However Joker is a runaway hit.

I am not trying to convince anybody but it is fair to say that there are a lot of people that have not liked the Disney Star Wars films.

I make the exception Rogue One was really good and the battle at the end was by far the best action in the Disney Star Wars movies.

Rogue One and The Mandalorian are bolt fantastic so I am not just bashing.

When the prequels were new I really enjoyed them despite all the crying about them.
I remember fan edits with Jar Jar taken out and a fan edit of the prequels about 90 mins long.

1800_Ladladlad

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

pixelburp wrote: »

Hyperbolic nonsense.

Stop searching for conspiracy where subjective entertainment is in play. God forbid people have different opinions.

Every damn thread now. Ooh no, the percentage points! Even though anything over 3/5 is considered 'fresh' by aggregators, let's reduce everything to some zero sum game of Spot the Shil.

Of course, people have different opinions, which are subjective but the problem I have in general is with the mob culture and the overbearing emotional responses from fans and critics who are in their own bubble and refuse to see that the fans are simply not happy with the output and the reviews show the likes of the TLJ not being accepted by overall fans. If people dare to state why they are unhappy, they are bombarded with such childish insults and labeled a shill

pixelburp

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Another metric is box office take.

Solo flopped hard and I do acknowledge Rambo Last Blood also flopped.

I notice you don't mention Last Jedi - how did that do in the box office?

Solo is a funny one because it was effectively one movie for the price of two, given the infamous reshoot, so that rumoured budget of £300 million made it impossible to be a success. Pure, raw numbrs didn't make it a success, but there were definitely mitigating circumstances in its production that surely informed its failure. Not least in the general audience disinterest for a Solo prequel. A feeling shared by critics & audiences alike.

pixelburp

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

Of course, people have different opinions, which are subjective but the problem I have in general is with the mob culture and the overbearing emotional responses from fans and critics who are in their own bubble and refuse to see that the fans are simply not happy with the output and the reviews show the likes of the TLJ not being accepted by overall fans. If people dare to state why they are unhappy, they are bombarded with such childish insults and labeled a shill

I don't disagree, but that's a problem with internet culture as a whole, and not really what I'm objecting to. Though I'm confused, it's usually praise and good reivews that are labelled as shills, rather than paid-for slatings? Not sure I've ever head of that.

Reducing film criticism to a percentage point number, whose maths and logic are demonstrably false and a problem, is a fools errand.

johnny_ultimate

Box office is not a metric of anything meaningful when it comes to analysing the quality of films: heavily marketed films with no lasting cultural impact make astronomical sums routinely, while some widely - even universally acclaimed - films may get a limited release at best.

CinemaGuy45

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

pixelburp wrote: »

I don't disagree, but that's a problem with internet culture as a whole, and not really what I'm objecting to. Though I'm confused, it's usually praise and good reivews that are labelled as shills, rather than paid-for slatings?

Reducing film criticism to a percentage point number, whose maths and logic are demonstrably false and a problem, is a fools errand.

Well I was a Star Wars nut repurchased the films many times on different formats with different aspect ratios and resolutions.

Rogue One I enjoyed and I am loving The Mandalorian.

I think the other 3 films from Disney have been garbage and I do not seem to be alone in that opinion.

My expectations for The Rise of Skywalker are not good.

pixelburp

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Well I was a Star Wars nut repurchased the films many times on different formats with different aspect ratios and resolutions.

Rogue One I enjoyed and I am loving The Mandalorian.

I think the other 3 films from Disney have been garbage and I do not seem to be alone in that opinion.

My expectations for The Rise of Skywalker are not good.

And ain't nothing wrong with your opinion, I have no objection with it, why would I? Grew up with Star Wars myself in the '80s, when if you were lucky it'd be on the TV at Xmas, or else I rented a well-worn copy from the local independent VHS store. I loved Last Jedi, after two viewings too, but this has been the ultimate marmite movie & accept for some folk, it wasn't what they wanted.

I only objected to calling professional critics "shills" when there's no proof of this - and TBH I'd also caution using confirmation bias to lean on aggregator sites to back up an opinion; their maths and logic are patent garbage.

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Another metric is box office take.

Solo flopped hard and I do acknowledge Rambo Last Blood also flopped.

However Joker is a runaway hit.

I am not trying to convince anybody but it is fair to say that there are a lot of people that have not liked the Disney Star Wars films.

I make the exception Rogue One was really good and the battle at the end was by far the best action in the Disney Star Wars movies.

Rogue One and The Mandalorian are bolt fantastic so I am not just bashing.

When the prequels were new I really enjoyed them despite all the crying about them.
I remember fan edits with Jar Jar taken out and a fan edit of the prequels about 90 mins long.

Box office is no metric. At all. Some of the greatest films ever made were catastrophes at the box office.

Yet fast and furious franchise or transformers make billions and are utter mindless drivel.
Solo was out put out within a week of endgame and Deadpool 2. Am they spent no money promoting it at all (to scale with usual marketing outlay)
If they’d out that out at Christmas and followed their usual method for Star Wars promotion it would have been a massive success. Iger even said as much.

There for sure are people don’t like new Star Wars and they dedicate a lot of time belly aching about it. Even know two years after tlj. But it’s such a minuscule organized yet insanely vocal cohort as to be infinitesimal. They think they’re going to make a huge dent in the box office for the new one. And they’re ‘boycotting’. They’ll go see it. Just to be able to complain after. This is a depressing go round happens every time.

1800_Ladladlad

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

I enjoyed the new Rambo film and loved Joker as did the audience just look at the professional critics.

The Last Jedi was a mess and Ghostbusters 2016 was pure scutter as can be backed up by the audience score yet the critics say they are great.

The Joker score is a prime example of how much of a farce that site is. I personally don't read reviews as Im capable of making my own mind up and forming my own opinions. I understand why people read reviews. I haven't an issue with them I just choose not to read them or see the point in them.

imo, I question people who look to rotten tomatoes for reviews because as you can see in the examples above, the critic's score does not represent the audience and when the audience is critical it's just all "fragile manbabies" in cases like TLJ.

pixelburp

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

The Joker score is a prime example of how much of a farce that site is. I personally don't read reviews as Im capable of making my own mind up and forming my own opinions. I understand why people read reviews. I haven't an issue with them I just choose not to read them or see the point in them.

imo, I question people who look to rotten tomatoes for reviews because as you can see in the examples above, the critic's score does not represent the audience and when the audience is critical it's just all "fragile manbabies" in cases like TLJ.

Or hadn't actually seen the movie, cos it wasn't even out yet, like with Captain Marvel Review bombing is a thing, and not just within Film either having had a fair share of examples on Amazon et al. Gaming would have been my first exposure to that phenomenon. Heck this kind of behaviour has a name: Slacktivism. I think it'd be foolish to presume any audience score is beyond reproach or its own manipulation by those wielding agendas.

Of course the ultimate truth should be: watch any or all movies and make up your own mind. That's a healthy atittude for most walks in life, but reducing any aspect of human experience to a single number doesn't wash either.

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

Tfa came out. The response from certain quarters ‘it’s crap! Remake of a new hope! No imagination!’

Before tlj came out ‘it’s gonna be a remake of empire! It’s gonna be Crap!’
(It wasn’t a remake of empire and had it been ‘crap!’ Would have been the cry)

TLJ comes out
‘Too different! Crap! Rian Johnson ruined Star Wars!’

Now rise of skywalker coming and we have the same doom n Gloomers spouting the same dire predictions.

There’s a pattern here. Can you see it? The perpetually aggrieved in the outrage echo chamber contest to be loudest. It’s so boring.

1800_Ladladlad

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

pixelburp wrote: »

I don't disagree, but that's a problem with internet culture as a whole, and not really what I'm objecting to. Though I'm confused, it's usually praise and good reivews that are labelled as shills, rather than paid-for slatings? Not sure I've ever head of that.

Reducing film criticism to a percentage point number, whose maths and logic are demonstrably false and a problem, is a fools errand.

I haven't heard of paid-for slatings sure if that was the case both you and I would not be posting as much on here but instead working on being minted.

Im not convinced that there is a fully concerted effort from the critics through the likes of paid-for positive reviews on rotten tomatoes but taking your point referencing internet culture and the cancer it can be, I do think maybe there could be a strong bias in certain critics mainly because of their societal/political beliefs, who unconsciously show an impartial viewpoint, not using logic or reason. I see it in some music reviews that I end up reading out of curiosity, and its as clear as day.

CinemaGuy45

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

I enjoyed the new Rambo film and loved Joker as did the audience just look at the professional critics.

The Last Jedi was a mess and Ghostbusters 2016 was pure scutter as can be backed up by the audience score yet the critics say they are great.

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

...


The Force Awakens is a bad movie by any objective measure


....

Hmmm


https://imgur.com/485609f4-3385-4245-bb51-fb45d7413088

pixelburp

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

I haven't heard of paid-for slatings sure if that was the case both you and I would not be posting as much on here but instead working on being minted.

Im not convinced that there is a fully concerted effort from the critics through the likes of paid-for positive reviews on rotten tomatoes but taking your point referencing internet culture and the cancer it can be, I do think maybe there could be a strong bias in certain critics mainly because of their societal/political beliefs, who unconsciously show an impartial viewpoint, not using logic or reason. I see it in some music reviews that I end up reading out of curiosity, and its as clear as day.

You can swap 'critics' for 'audience' and that sentence will remain true. Human beings are not objective beings, and at least with professional critics there's a good chance they'll be .. ... .. well, professional about a review. I "know" Mark Kermode, I know where he stands on the Exorcist (lol), and I'll "trust" his thoughts sooner than some utter randomer, who could be a Spambot for all I know. and even if not, how can I know they're not more swayed by biases than the professionals? Heck IMO it's more likely.

It's not without reason Amazon started leaning into this idea of "trusted reviewer", cos the public on the internet are an unknown, untrustworthy horde.

If I have one underlying point I can't stress enough: "Aggregate Sites are Bullsh*t". We can debate bias til we're blue in the face and wouldn't ever expect agreement ...

... but using Aggregators as ammunition or confirmation bias is just super frustrating. Cos it comes up. Every. Single. Thread now. Ever fúcking blockbuster. And yes, usually accompanied by a thought pattern of "I hated movie X cos of Issue Y, and Rotten Tomatoes proves it!"

Like, it's here right in this thread.

Tony EH

People need to stop with the Rotten Tomatoes flag waving and as Pix said above aggregation is a load of bollocks.

Ten 6/10 reviews will give a Rotten Tomato score of "100% Fresh", even though the actual review content could be quite harsh in many areas.

Also, a 5/10 score in a review, which would indicate an average film means rotten on the site and that film gets a splat.

Rotten Tomatoes is a terrible way to judge any film.

pixelburp

Just to loop in the Gaming Industry for a second, to really highlight how poisonous Aggregators are nowadays, it isn't uncommon (or wasn't anyway, maybe bad press stopped this practise) for a studio to peg employee's bonuses to Aggregator scores. Some reported examples of this meant employees were losing important wages because a game ended up with 84% average, instead of 85%. It's patent nonsense masquerading as science, but one being wielded for all the wrong reasons.

And yeah Tony, exactly as you say: ten 6/10s is pegged as "fresh", and thus cue the outrage from some - when clearly reality should say this is a much more complex beast that folk can both like and dislike. Only on the internet can an average of 6/10 get a gold star.

Man, I really hate aggregators don't I? Can't help but rant about them

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

I haven't heard of paid-for slatings sure if that was the case both you and I would not be posting as much on here but instead working on being minted.

Im not convinced that there is a fully concerted effort from the critics through the likes of paid-for positive reviews on rotten tomatoes but taking your point referencing internet culture and the cancer it can be, I do think maybe there could be a strong bias in certain critics mainly because of their societal/political beliefs, who unconsciously show an impartial viewpoint, not using logic or reason. I see it in some music reviews that I end up reading out of curiosity, and its as clear as day.

That just doesn’t happen.

Look up payola and the early days of the record industry and radio stations.

Pretty sure it’s illegal in the US especially to this day.

Venom

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

pixelburp wrote: »

You can swap 'critics' for 'audience' and that sentence will remain true. Human beings are not objective beings, and at least with professional critics there's a good chance they'll be .. ... .. well, professional about a review. I "know" Mark Kermode, I know where he stands on the Exorcist (lol), and I'll "trust" his thoughts sooner than some utter randomer, who could be a Spambot for all I know. and even if not, how can I know they're not more swayed by biases than the professionals? Heck IMO it's more likely.

It's not without reason Amazon started leaning into this idea of "trusted reviewer", cos the public on the internet are an unknown, untrustworthy horde.

If I have one underlying point I can't stress enough: "Aggregate Sites are Bullsh*t". We can debate bias til we're blue in the face and wouldn't ever expect agreement ...

... but using Aggregators as ammunition or confirmation bias is just super frustrating. Cos it comes up. Every. Single. Thread now. Ever fúcking blockbuster. And yes, usually accompanied by a thought pattern of "I hated movie X cos of Issue Y, and Rotten Tomatoes proves it!"

Like, it's here right in this thread.

The aggregator sites, as with everything else on the internet that allows public voting, always should be taken with a pinch of salt for sure. But, Rotten Tomatoes is a complete joke as they allow complete nobodies with a blog to count as critics in the critic scoring and at this stage are nothing but industry shills.


TLJ on rotten Tomatoes is rated at 91% critics -44% audience with 454 critic reviews. The majority of those critic reviews are from no name bloggers. Metacritc on the other hand rate it 85 -4.4 with only 56 critic reviews. Review bombing by fans is 100% a thing but that doesn't mean media manipulation going the in other direction to benefit the big studios, is any less a fact of life.

Stop moaning ffs

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

If any journalist or critic working for a newspaper or outlet was found to be taking bribes or equivalent they’d be fired. Bloggers, sure. They answer to themselves. But real journalists? No. Never.
Can we move back into reality here please?

johnny_ultimate

Venom wrote: »

TLJ on rotten Tomatoes is rated at 91% critics -44% audience with 454 critic reviews. The majority of those critic reviews are from no name bloggers. Metacritc on the other hand rate it 85 -4.4 with only 56 critic reviews.

Not really sure what point is being made here? Metacritic and RT scores aren’t comparable as the former are weighted. If anything, the better regarded and more esteemed publications that make the cut on MC is a sharp riposte to the idea that it’s only no-name bloggers and ‘industry shills’ gave the film a good review.

pixelburp

Part of me wonders how films would score were there polls on Boards' threads. Would they track with the fabled aggregators, or show their own skewing? Especially if it were a simple marks out of five. Fair to say that the calibre of discussion and thought is higher than average, in that it encourages debate rather than glib flag-waving.

Or indeed if you factored in subsequent rewatches: I mentioned Kermode in name checking critics, and he's a reviewer who on more than one occasion has owned up to re-assessing films after being sniffy about them the first time around. Tastes and viewpoints change, sometimes as we get older, sometimes just watching something with a different frame of mind - further eroding the Truth element of any score.