Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker **Spoilers from post 2076**

Tony EH

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

What's your background in movies?

Why would I need a background in movies?

I'm just some guy on the web.

Sad Professor

I really don't think these films were made by committee. Kennedy is not a creative producer. Hell, the disastrous productions of Solo and Rogue One were if anything surely the result of her being too hands-off until it was too late. Disney presumedly became heavily involved in those films at the point that problems became apparent, but I think they stayed on the sidelines of the saga films. Because they trusted Kennedy and the directors involved. However, I think future films will be made by a committee led by Feige or someone like him. It's the safer approach.

cdgalwegian

Tony EH wrote: »

"Committee” is just a shorthand way of saying Kathleen Kennedy and the army of studio execs that handle the decision making at Lucasfilm. That's all.

As I said, these movies aren't made the old fashioned way, where you had a director who ran the film and a producer who facilitated the running of the film, which largely meant getting more money. Nowadays, there are a huge number of studio executives who interfere at every stage during the film making process, often to the detriment of the film itself.

TRoS was a zebra then.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

I really don't think these films were made by committee. Kennedy is not a creative producer. Hell, the disastrous productions of Solo and Rogue One were if anything surely the result of her being too hands-off until it was too late. Disney presumedly became heavily involved in those films at the point that problems became apparent, but I think they stayed on the sidelines of the saga films. Because they trusted Kennedy and the directors involved. However, I think future films will be made by a committee led by Feige or someone like him. It's the safer approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

Well, if we take "design by committee" to mean "... a disparaging term for a project that has many designers involved but no unifying plan or vision", then it's quite apt in the case of Diswars.

Also, regarding Rogue One's "problems", all we really know about it's state comes from Tony Gilroy, who said it was "a mess". A "mess" how and why? Who made it a mess? Was it solely down to Gareth Edwards? Or was there a lot of interference on his film by Kennedy and Disney from the get-go and Edwards got the shaft in the end.

Maybe Edwards' original vision was perfectly fine.

In any case, I'm not really trying to make the case for committee produced Star Wars. I was only trying to explain what most people meant when they used the term. I do think, however, that there were times when the "producer army" demanded some things and when Kennedy acted as a dictator.

Tony EH

cdgalwegian wrote: »

TRoS was a zebra then.

Possibly.

Or it's a camel.

cdgalwegian

Actually, camel is funnier (and the original, I think).

Brock Turnpike

Disappointing box office take less than a billion

Tony EH wrote: »

Why would I need a background in movies?

Oh. With the certainty which you talk about inner workings of Disney, directors approaches etc. it sounds as though you must have been an insider.

Tony EH

Maybe I'm Bob Iger. You'll never know.

Sad Professor

Tony EH wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

Well, if we take "design by committee" to mean "... a disparaging term for a project that has many designers involved but no unifying plan or vision", then it's quite apt in the case of Diswars.

Also, regarding Rogue One's "problems", all we really know about it's state comes from Tony Gilroy, who said it was "a mess". A "mess" how and why? Who made it a mess? Was it solely down to Gareth Edwards? Or was there a lot of interference on his film by Kennedy and Disney from the get-go and Edwards got the shaft in the end.

Maybe Edwards' original vision was perfectly fine.

In any case, I'm not really trying to make the case for committee produced Star Wars. I was only trying to explain what most people meant when they used the term. I do think, however, that there were times when the "producer army" demanded some things and when Kennedy acted as a dictator.

I don't see a lot of evidence of a committee driving the creative choices in the Disney films. I mean, who are the "many designers" in the sequel trilogy? It's mainly just the directors, one of whom returned for the third film. From what I can see there was a clear "unifying vision" behind each of the individual films, even if that vision was (particularly in the case of TFA and TROS) lacking in imagination.

Was there a unifying vision for the trilogy as a whole? Clearly not, but I think that would have been the same even if Abrams had directed all 3 films. There's nothing in his filmography to suggest he could pull off a coherent trilogy with a beginning, a middle and an end. Alias, which he was mostly consistently involved in of his many shows, was a mess of retcons. Star Trek into Darkness could have been a TESB-type sequel that built and expanded on the first film but instead it was just more of the same. Same tone, same visual style, same gags, etc. TROS was made in the same spirit.

As for Rogue One, I suspect the combination of a poor script and a director who couldn't keep the whole film in his head and was shooting random stuff that looked cool was the source of the film's problems. If Kennedy was more creatively inclined I think she would have recognised this earlier.

I think you're right about the "producer army" intervening but I think that was mostly an issue with Solo and Rogue One and only at the point that problems became apparent, with the trilogy films being largely the visions of their respective directors.

cdgalwegian

Tony EH wrote: »

Maybe I'm Bob Iger. You'll never know.

I was gonna 'out' you as this guy, but looks like he's dead.

Slydice

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

Posted this to the you feels, you lose thread. Might be of interest here too..

Slydice wrote: »

Spoilers for Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker

but

jump to 5:37 for Kates email

this is the scene she's referenced at the end of her email:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdlRmWd_R7A

cdgalwegian

Slydice wrote: »

Posted this to the you feels, you lose thread.

At least the camel joke made sense. :pac::D

CinemaGuy45

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

silverharp wrote: »

not likely to beat Rogue One, a fairly forgettable side movie

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2020/01/11/box-office-star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-drops-64-on-friday/#d1210a13b53e

I started the poll here it looks like my vote was pretty bang on.

It was a rubbish end to a rubbish trilogy I doubt there are too many repeat viewings.

Let us hope Disney learns their lesson and gives us some real Star Wars in the future.

cdgalwegian

This more or less sums up the misgivings of many about TRoS:

https://whatculture.com/film/14-stupid-blunders-that-ruined-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker?page=1

UI_Paddy

Disappointing box office take less than a billion

It just crossed 1 billion. While definitely not a flop as some naysayers try to argue I doubt it's been doing the business Disney hoped it would for all the hype over it being the culmination of 42 years and the end of the Skywalker saga.

world class wreckin’ cru

This from Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/eoaxdn/robert_meyer_burnett_reviews_an_early_draft_of/

I would love to have seen this version of it.

Opens at the Kuat Shipyards (man on a mission-style)

BB-8 and Rose Tico (allegedly a key character in script) are infiltrating Kuat Moon where First Order build their ships (workers are oppressed). There is an orbital ring and moon below it. Finn and Poe are there. No R2/3PO. Rey arrives.

The plan: Send explosive into the power shaft that delivers raw ore into the ring.

Plan goes wrong. (RBM loves dialogue at this moment.) First Order is able to contain blast. Admiral Vaughn says Resistance tactics are "pitful."

Rey disguised as a Tusken Raider is revealed to have created her own weapon (a double-blade lightsaber hybrid of her staff and Luke's cracked saber).

They battle and Poe, Finn, Rose, Rey, and BB-8 STEAL A STAR DESTROYER (Eclipse-class) and escape.

The Knife 9 a ship containing the Knights of Ren arrives a Kuat. Ataska (?) Ren kills Admiral Vaughn for his failure.

CUT TO: CORUSCANT. No longer a vibrant city. "The new structures are built atop the art deco structure of the old republic." Occupied by the First Order now (they have a citadel/palace there). Citizens are scavengers now. Hux is now CHANCELLOR HUX and is addressing Bisc Kova (traitor who helped Resist. steal Star Destroyer.) Kova is executed with a light blade guillotine.

Hux and Commander Selleck have a meeting with several alien war lords (ode to ANH imperial council scene). First Order has allies. They are aware of Rey being the last Jedi. Council wants to know WHERE IS KYLO REN? He is missing. Hux only knows he has gone searching for something of great power.

CUT TO: MUSTAFAR. Kylo Ren is alone, except for a Darth Maul-esque droid. He has stubble indicating search has been for a long time. Ren is being HAUNTED by Luke's force ghost.

Luke: "This is where the dark path leads; an empty tomb." Kylo (retort): "Where did your path lead?"

Luke is trying to convince him to go back to Leia. Kylo: "I'm going to be more powerful than any Jedi...even you."

In Vader's Temple, Kylo finds a Sith Holocron which reveals a hologram of Palpatine. Recording is for Vader. Palpatine has a contingency for Vader if Luke kills him. Vader is to take Luke to the Remnicore (?) System to see TOR VALUM, Master of Sith/Palpatine's Teacher.

After scanning Kylo, the Holocron explodes and releases red lighting which burns Kylo, who screams.

CUT TO: RESISTANCE BASE on KOR-ALAF (?). Leia is introduced as she feels what's happening to Ben. Chewbacca and Lt. Connix tell Leia that the Kuat team is back. They're shocked to see a Star Destroyer (which is landed onto the planet). Funny moment w/ Rey using Mind Trick on First Order officers who were still on the ship.

Rey confides in Finn that she doesn't feel like she has what it takes to be a Jedi and can't live up to everyone's expectations. Finn asks her if she still senses Kylo. Rey confesses she's been having nightmares. Finn asks if it's Kylo. Rey says she can't explain their connection.

Finn: "You have to shut him out. He can't change. It's too late." Rey: "It's never to late to change. You taught me that Finn."

Resistance realizes that the Star Destroyer stills has most of it's weapons (tanks, TIEs, etc). Only missing piece is an army to use it.

Rey researching the Jedi texts from Anch-To discovers that under Coruscant Jedi Temple there is a communication system (called a FORCE BEACON) from the Old Republic that can send a signal to 50 planets. They plan on using it to get allies. First Order can't stop it, since it predates Imperial tech. Rey: "Hope is all we have left."

Force Ghost Luke appears as Rey trains. Luke is pushing Rey to get stronger in the Force, while he is pushing Kylo to let Ben out.

Kylo makes it back to Coruscant. Face is damaged. Mandalorian armor is smelted and is been applied to his face. Confronts Hux and belittles him, saying he doesn't need titles.

Rey to Luke as they train: "Balance? The dark suffocates the light, light extinguishes the dark. Over and over and over again. How is that balance in the force?"

Luke: "I know that anger. My father had it too.'

Rey: "So says my master and his master before him. A thousand masters so eager to tell us how to live."

Rest of exchange between Rey and Luke is basically Rey trying to back away from being a Jedi (she admits she is NO ONE) and Luke trying to convince her (he says the Force is speaking to her).

Back to Kylo. He and Hux continue to snipe at each other. Kylo says he's leaving again, but not before telling Hux the power he discovered will make destroying planets insignificant. Kylo's last order to Hux: "Find the Resistance, wipe them out, leave the girl to me."

TEAM A (Rose, Finn, R2, 3PO): Going to Coruscant to light the beacon.

TEAM B (Rey, Poe, Chewbacca): Going to a planet to find someone to help Rey figure out what she needs to do. (side: Yes, his descrp. is that vague)

Kylo is going to a Sith Planet/Remnicore. EDIT: Before he leaves Coruscant, he takes Vader's mask and says he understands Vader now. Kylo: "You allowed love to cloud your judgement" and he throws Vader's mask off of a balcony and it shatters.

Leia stays at the base overseeing the Resistance.

Before Rey leaves, she and Leia have an exchange were Rey says she believes there's still good in Kylo. Leia is skeptical, but Rey believes in her Jedi Training. Leia: "You're not like my father or my brother. You're new. Whatever happens, remember the force choose you Rey. You're story isn't written by anyone else."

RMB starts summarizing now:

First Order tracks down stolen Star Destroyer to Kor-Alaf. Resistance escapes.

TEAM A successfully infiltrates the Jedi Temple and turn on the beacon. Cut to different places around the galaxy receiving the signal (Bossk cameo). It is then cut off by the First Order. TEAM A then flee into the underbelly of Coruscant.

TEAM B are being pursued by the Knife 9 (Knights of Ren ship) and eventually reach the planet Bonadan.

Kylo reaches Remincore and confronts Tor Valum (7000 yrs old, alien of unknown origin, spindly, intense sinewy muscle -- very Lovecraftian). Kylo begins training with Valum. Ode to ESB Cave scene: Kylo fights Vader. Fight is brutal and Kylo loses.

Bonadan: Poe takes Rey to a Seer who can pull information out of memories. The Seer pulls a star chart out of Rey's mind from her visions w/ Kylo. Knights of Ren show up and fight Rey in a lightsaber battle. She defeats them and TEAM B escapes.

Both Rey and Kylo eventually get to MORTIS.

Leia asks Lando if he will organize the smugglers and fight the First Order.

Rose is captured and tortured by the First Order, but is able to escape.

Finn/R2/3PO start a citizens uprising on Coruscant around the First Order's Citadel/Palace.

Leia brings her forces to Coruscant to battle the FO. Massive space battle, ground battle (ROTJ-style you know the works lol). Chewie flies an X-Wing.

Rey and Kylo battle on Mortis, using force energy that can pull from each other. At some point is revealed Kylo killed Rey's parents at the behest of Snoke. Towards the end, Luke/Obi Wan/Yoda appear as Force Ghosts to save Ben, but are unsuccessful. Ben is "extinguished."

RMB seems to be at the end, so just for house keeping sake - Resistance won, First Order loses.

One final deet: Han Solo did appear in the script and does confront Kylo at some point.

El Duda

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

Lets face it, the unmade versions of films always sound better on paper. Had they made that version and you were now reading the JJ version, everyone would be reading about palpatine and wishing they had made that version.

People are incredibly fickle.

Kirby

Disappointing box office take less than a billion

That version sounds awful to me to be honest. Wouldn't be an improvement.

If you want to tell a story over three films, you have to write it start to finish beforehand. You can make small changes here and there but the overarching story should be complete.

This didn't happen for the trilogy and it was a mess because of it. I have no clue what they were thinking tbh. People at this level of the game should know better.

B.A._Baracus

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

Kirby wrote: »

That version sounds awful to me to be honest. Wouldn't be an improvement.

If you want to tell a story over three films, you have to write it start to finish beforehand. You can make small changes here and there but the overarching story should be complete.

This didn't happen for the trilogy and it was a mess because of it. I have no clue what they were thinking tbh. People at this level of the game should know better.

Agree.
Annoying thing is The Force Awakens set everything up nicely.

- Kylo Ren turned out to be Ben Solo. So his arc can be turning good. Which they did.
- Snoke was the new Emperor. Why is he scarred? is he darth plagueis? What does that mean if he is?
- They find Luke... the last jedi (no pun intended) What was luke doing on that planet? Did that first jedi temple hold some secrets?
- Who really is Rey's parents? (they at least answered this one too)
Could go one.

The Force Awakens set things up nicely. But after it, you just know they did a 180.

Luke Defeating the Snoke, who turned out to be darth plagueis, in ep 9 seemed like such an obvious point to write towards IMO. The last jedi vs the most powerful Sith.

Homelander

I prefer the sound of that treatment simply because it's at least original and takes the new movies somewhere fresh. It also builds fairly naturally on TLJ in some way at least.

Not saying it sounds perfect or even great (and towards the end some of it sounds plain bad), but TROS is unbelievably lazy and an underwhelming regurgitation, leaves me with a generally negative impression of the sequel trilogy.

Foxtrol

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Agree.
Annoying thing is The Force Awakens set everything up nicely.

- Kylo Ren turned out to be Ben Solo. So his arc can be turning good. Which they did.
- Snoke was the new Emperor. Why is he scarred? is he darth plagueis? What does that mean if he is?
- They find Luke... the last jedi (no pun intended) What was luke doing on that planet? Did that first jedi temple hold some secrets?
- Who really is Rey's parents? (they at least answered this one too)
Could go one.

The Force Awakens set things up nicely. But after it, you just know they did a 180.

Luke Defeating the Snoke, who turned out to be darth plagueis, in ep 9 seemed like such an obvious point to write towards IMO. The last jedi vs the most powerful Sith.

Seems like you're a huge fan of JJ's mystery box storytelling

Relikk

Foxtrol wrote: »

Seems like you're a huge fan of JJ's mystery box storytelling

:rolleyes:

It was a trilogy in the sense that they knew they were making three movies. Not a trilogy where they'll make a self-contained first movie and see if it's a hit before they decide make the second and third. So, in that regard there was always going to be unanswered elements in the first movie that carried over. TFA set everything up pretty well. What followed is where the real problems began.

Foxtrol

Relikk wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It was a trilogy in the sense that they knew they were making three movies. Not a trilogy where they'll make a self-contained first movie and see if it's a hit before they decide make the second and third. So, in that regard there was always going to be unanswered elements in the first movie that carried over. TFA set everything up pretty well. What followed is where the real problems began.

At the time I enjoyed TFA and I still did during the re-watch before TRoS but it is deeply flawed in how it spent its time, especially now that it is clear there was no overall plan for the trilogy.

There's a difference between having unanswered elements within the first movie of a trilogy and JJ focusing the first movie on creating as many questions as possible and jamming in nostalgia instead of spending the time building a coherent universe and getting us to connect with the new characters.

To me it is not a success to come out of a movie more interested in the questions that haven't been answered than appreciating the connection built with the characters or enjoying the narrative itself. For example, after TFA more people cared who Rey's parents were than caring about Rey herself, which is not good and just sets people up for disappointment.

The Black Oil

Slydice wrote: »

Posted this to the you feels, you lose thread. Might be of interest here too..

Kate's email.

I first heard it on the bus. Then saw the video with Mayo's reaction and body language. Hard not to be floored by it. I'm far from a SW fan and not seen anything since TFA.

Slydice

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

The Black Oil wrote: »

Kate's email.

I first heard it on the bus. Then saw the video with Mayo's reaction and body language. Hard not to be floored by it. I'm far from a SW fan and not seen anything since TFA.

I got choked up

Agent Coulson

The email rings true for me as well.

Wedwood

On the day Philip Scofield came out, I’d also like to make a confession - I LIKED THE SEQUEL TRILOGY.

It’s a diifficult admission to make in public particularly in the current climate, but despite so many people saying it’s wrong, I can’t help it, I just like them.

Maybe some day, people will come to tolerate Sequel Trilogy likers same as Original Trilogy purists !!!

silverharp

Wedwood wrote: »

On the day Philip Scofield came out, I’d also like to make a confession - I LIKED THE SEQUEL TRILOGY.

It’s a diifficult admission to make in public particularly in the current climate, but despite so many people saying it’s wrong, I can’t help it, I just like them.

Maybe some day, people will come to tolerate Sequel Trilogy likers same as Original Trilogy purists !!!

you still cheated on your first love, not cool dude!

fitz

Wedwood wrote: »

On the day Philip Scofield came out, I’d also like to make a confession - I LIKED THE SEQUEL TRILOGY.

It’s a diifficult admission to make in public particularly in the current climate, but despite so many people saying it’s wrong, I can’t help it, I just like them.

Maybe some day, people will come to tolerate Sequel Trilogy likers same as Original Trilogy purists !!!

I like them too, but I think not mapping out the story for the three films was a huge mistake.

Also, was talking about this recently, and in retrospect, is love to have seen them flip the dynamic of the OT on its head. Have the First Order be the scrappy insurgency that the Rebel Alliance was in the original films. Maybe have the First Order actively recruiting force sensitive to their side... Show Kylo turning and joining them, with him assissinating New Republic leadership and throwing things into chaos and war.

Could still have used some of the same characters, hit some of the same plot points (killing Han), but I think it would have added fresh type of conflict, and would have felt less like repeating ideas from the OT.

I like the sequels, but with the character ideas they had, I think the narrative arc they went with was a bit of a missed opportunity.

UI_Paddy

Disappointing box office take less than a billion

Wedwood wrote: »

On the day Philip Scofield came out, I’d also like to make a confession - I LIKED THE SEQUEL TRILOGY.

It’s a diifficult admission to make in public particularly in the current climate, but despite so many people saying it’s wrong, I can’t help it, I just like them.

Maybe some day, people will come to tolerate Sequel Trilogy likers same as Original Trilogy purists !!!

I like them too, and honestly I think they are just the new punching bag for a lot of fans who, whilst still not loving the prequels have accepted them for what they are.

I still think Force Awakens and Last Jedi were fantastic, Rise of Skywalker for me didn't live up to the highs of these predecessors but on its own it's entertaining enough.

I love the new characters, I think they could have done more with them if this was a quadrilogy (which I understand them not doing because episodes 7-9 had to be consistent with 1-6) so I'm hoping we get a Disney+ series, as Kathleen Kennedy did say they were thinking about where to take their arcs further.