Ahed Tamimi - a young woman to admire

Greyfox

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

"little girl" my a**e. When asked to put down her schoolbag - did she ?

Why was she there? What role did the father or others play in her actions ?

Do you have any evidence that the girl was carrying a bomb? Your basically saying that it's ok to kill a 13 year old girl, have you ever heard of innocent until proven guilty?

PlaneSpeeking

Greyfox wrote: »

Do you have any evidence that the girl was carrying a bomb? Your basically saying that it's ok to kill a 13 year old girl, have you ever heard of innocent until proven guilty?

I'm asking questions. Before mindless acceptance of everything became fashionable, it's what we used to do.

end of the road

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

One sided, puerile garbage.

"little girl" my a**e. When asked to put down her schoolbag - did she ?

Why was she there? What role did the father or others play in her actions ?

These questions were not answered or even asked.

Your "side" has been well established over multiple threads so there is no way a questioning attitude will be taken here. Shame.

yup, 13. a young teenager. a young girl. not her job to put down her school bag. why she was there is irrelevant. such questions weren't asked or answered because they are irrelevant to the murder.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

No they're really not.

they are. have a read of the article odhinn posted.

skepticalme

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

One sided, puerile garbage.

"little girl" my a**e. When asked to put down her schoolbag - did she ?

Why was she there? What role did the father or others play in her actions ?

These questions were not answered or even asked.

Your "side" has been well established over multiple threads so there is no way a questioning attitude will be taken here. Shame.

This is from the article posted. It's clear that child was no threat.

In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.

On the tape, Capt R then "clarifies" to the soldiers under his command why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the [security] zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed."

At no point did the Israeli troops come under attack.

PlaneSpeeking

end of the road wrote: »

yup, 13. a young teenager. a young girl. not her job to put down her school bag. why she was there is irrelevant. such questions weren't asked or answered because they are irrelevant to the murder.



they are. have a read of the article odhinn posted.

I really do hate to be the one to break it to you - but you do not get to decide what others think may or may not be relevant.

s7ryf3925pivug

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I'm asking questions. Before mindless acceptance of everything became fashionable, it's what we used to do.

There was evidence that she was not carrying a bomb. Her bag had been dropped and had been shot.

The soldier was not punished because he was following orders. The orders were to kill anyone entering the security zone, regardless of age or anything else.

They thought she was 10 when they killed her, observed that she was scared and running away. There was zero credible threat. This was irrelevant because their orders were to kill anyone who was there. They did not say anything about credible threats.

Even if there was a credible threat, non lethal measures should be taken instead if you're talking about a child.

No military background here but I'm sure 'kill anyone who approaches' is not the typical order for someone guarding an area. Personally I think shouting at people to leave would have been appropriate as an initial action, though even that might have been more forceful than ideal in this instance.

Kivaro

skepticalme wrote: »

This is from the article posted. It's clear that child was no threat.

In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.

On the tape, Capt R then "clarifies" to the soldiers under his command why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the [security] zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed."

At no point did the Israeli troops come under attack.

A truly horrendous event.
It is an example of the complete dehumanisation of a whole race of people, and it is much easier to murder them when they are dehumanised.

By demonising and dehumanising a group of people, and imprisoning them in a section of land without access to resources that the rest of us take for granted (electricity, clean running water, safety and security, food), then the Israeli authorities have assured a climate of eternal strife in the region .... and beyond.

We also need to acknowledge though that there is a sizable portion of Jews in Israel and around the world who are against this subjugation. Jews and Palestinians should be allowed to live in peace, but the current status quo will not allow that to happen.

The world should hang their heads in shame on how the Palestinians are treated, and I fear that there will world-wide devastating consequences sometime in the future as a result of this treatment.

Mike Hoch

Annd9 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/TheMossadIL/status/1022808464706490368

Maybe you should ask them to explain it for you .

You realise that is satire yes?


Nobody has yet explained why Israel would spend money trying to sway public opinion in a country with virtually no Jews, no Muslim voting bloc, no significant military, an electorate that cares little for foreign policy, minimal trade and diplomatic relations, etc etc etc etc. In fact, we are of such little consequence to Israel they had Mossad agents travelling on false Irish passports- presumably because the fall out would be less severe than using fake, say, British passports.

SnakePlissken

skepticalme wrote: »

This is from the article posted. It's clear that child was no threat.

I'm a supporter of Israel's right to defend itself but reading all information available about this incident I can't see how it is anything but murder.

SnakePlissken

Kivaro wrote: »

By demonising and dehumanising a group of people

Interesting to note the soldier who murdered this girl was himself Muslim? It's not always about religion, some men just want to kill.

s7ryf3925pivug

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Interesting to note the soldier who murdered this girl was himself Muslim? It's not always about religion, some men just want to kill.

While I agree with you there is something wrong with someone who kills a scared child, he was following his orders correctly. The bigger problem is that the orders were what they were.

I think there are very few people who would kill a scared child, regardless of orders. In fact a problem with a lot of combat troops historically has been an unwillingness to actually kill the enemy at all. Read a paper that indicated that only about 10% of them would shoot to kill. Psychopaths are recognised as desirable and effective combat troops for this reason. Give a psychopath an order to kill a child then I guess they'll do it - and cry tears about their victimisation if someone says that was a bad thing to do. (He did this.)

skepticalme

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Interesting to note the soldier who murdered this girl was himself Muslim? It's not always about religion, some men just want to kill.

The Israeli soldier who murdered the child was Druze, not muslim.
He also got compensation for the trouble of court.
The Druze in Israel have been loyal to the state and been rewarded with the appartheid law so they have started resigning from the IDF.

This child's story was in the news, there are many children murdered by Israel who never make news. An 11 year old was buried last week after a head shot at the border. There are videos online of children shot and Israeli soldiers planting knives beside them while they are lying on the ground. Head shots to children in the West Bank for throwing stones.

In the last week Israel has imprisoned a Palastinian poet for months after having her on house arrest for nearly 3 years.
Israel has released a Palastinian who worked as a clown after keeping him in jail for 2 years with no charges of anything ever been laid against him.
Israel have arrested detained and yesterday deported 2 Italian artists who painted a mural of Ahed Tamimi on the appartheid wall.
Israel have attacked the Freedom Flotilla first boat in international waters, tasered hit and detained the sailors. Brought the boat to Israel, released the 2 Israelis on board and detained the rest. The second boat will get the same treatment no doubt. One of the sailors was on the USS Liberty, the U.S. Navy ship that Israel attacked, these sailors want justice.

Venom

Edison Incalculable Tomato wrote: »

While I agree with you there is something wrong with someone who kills a scared child, he was following his orders correctly. The bigger problem is that the orders were what they were.

I think there are very few people who would kill a scared child, regardless of orders. In fact a problem with a lot of combat troops historically has been an unwillingness to actually kill the enemy at all. Read a paper that indicated that only about 10% of them would shoot to kill. Psychopaths are recognised as desirable and effective combat troops for this reason. Give a psychopath an order to kill a child then I guess they'll do it - and cry tears about their victimisation if someone says that was a bad thing to do. (He did this.)

The "superior orders" aka "only following orders" defence is not, nor should it ever be accepted as a defence of the indefensible. The person who gave and those that followed an order such as the kill anything that moves as is the case here, stop being soldiers and become nothing more than terrorists and should be tried as such in a court of law.

skepticalme

Venom wrote: »

The "superior orders" aka "only following orders" defence is not, nor should it ever be accepted as a defence of the indefensible. The person who gave and those that followed an order such as the kill anything that moves as is the case here, stop being soldiers and become nothing more than terrorists and should be tried as such in a court of law.

This Israeli Captain was in court and acquited of all charges. Received compensation and a promotion.
The Israeli public go crazy any time a soldier is accused of wrongdoing, they want the soldiers to be able to kill with impunity.

SnakePlissken

skepticalme wrote: »

The Israeli public go crazy any time a soldier is accused of wrongdoing, they want the soldiers to be able to kill with impunity.

Well this isn't true at all, have you ever spoken with an Israeli?

TommyKnocker

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Well this isn't true at all, have you ever spoken with an Israeli?

cough, Elor Azaria, cough :rolleyes::rolleyes:



There were riots and mass demonstrations when this soldier was charged.

There is also this and this

s7ryf3925pivug

Venom wrote: »

The "superior orders" aka "only following orders" defence is not, nor should it ever be accepted as a defence of the indefensible. The person who gave and those that followed an order such as the kill anything that moves as is the case here, stop being soldiers and become nothing more than terrorists and should be tried as such in a court of law.

No, they are soldiers who have committed warcrimes.

skepticalme

Here is another murder of a 15 year old boy. No charges for the soldier who opened fire on a car of children returning from swimming because they happened to be in the vicinity of a place where stones were thrown previously. They were innocent of the crime of stone throwing but what other country has death penalty for children who throw stones. No arrest, just instant death.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180112-no-charges-for-israel-soldier-who-killed-palestinian-child-returning-from-swimming/

skepticalme

Here is another one, Palastinian man beaten to death by Israeli soldiers. First they said he charged at them with an iron bar, then they said he had a knife and tried to steal a gun. Then they retracted that.
The video is here in the story.

They beat him to death and lied and will face no charges.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/palestinian-man-reportedly-dies-after-being-arrested-by-israel-1.5844417

WinnyThePoo

skepticalme wrote: »

Here is another murder of a 15 year old boy. No charges for the soldier who opened fire on a car of children returning from swimming because they happened to be in the vicinity of a place where stones were thrown previously. They were innocent of the crime of stone throwing but what other country has death penalty for children who throw stones. No arrest, just instant death.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180112-no-charges-for-israel-soldier-who-killed-palestinian-child-returning-from-swimming/

Your conversing with someone who doesn't see Palestinians as people, like you and me.
Dehumanising is the name of the game here.

hatrickpatrick

I'll say one thing which always comes to mind when discussing Israeli public opinion. This is purely anecdotal, so I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's experience. But I've always thought it's very possible that Israeli public opinion is skewed towards far right extremism not because anything like a majority of Israeli people are far right, but because a huge number of those who don't buy into the ultranationalism - including a huge number of millennial Israelis - tend to leave the country after they've completed their military service.

I've never been to Israel, so all of the Israelis I've met in my time have been emigrants or backpackers. And overwhelmingly, most of them talk about how once they completed their mandatory military service, they just wanted to get the f*ck away from conflict, war, hatred, all of the things which come with the territory of being in any way involved in this issue. None of them have ever talked in the ultranationalistic way people like Netanyahu and his supporters tend to talk about Palestinians or the conflict - overwhelmingly, I've only ever perceived this note of helpless sadness, like "it is what it is but there's nothing one person can really do about it, so I'm just getting out of it altogether".

Maybe that's not representative, but it's certainly my experience. And maybe those young people do have far right views as well, and are merely self-censoring because they feel that discussing those views will make them socially unpopular with people from other countries. But that's just an anecdote for what it's worth - Israel may be a self-fulfilling prophecy of far right "not an inch" mentality, because those who don't share that mentality ultimately decide not to stay in what they see as a toxic environment.

Most of those I've talked to about it speak fairly fondly of their home, it's not as if they don't feel the same aches and pangs about leaving that most people do when they leave it all behind - but unlike people who've emigrated from other, non-screwed up places, those I've heard this from tend not to have any desire to return home any time soon.

Unfortunately, if this is true on a wider scale, it sort of means that there's a "flight of ideology", where those who feel a certain way about it leave en masse - leaving the extremists as a concentrated mass, so that those who oppose them and stay behind find themselves hopelessly outnumbered.

I wonder are there any historical or political analogues of a phenomenon like this? I totally accept that it's anecdotal so it could be totally inaccurate, but it's certainly something which merits research IMO.

SnakePlissken

skepticalme wrote: »

They beat him to death and lied and will face no charges.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/palestinian-man-reportedly-dies-after-being-arrested-by-israel-1.5844417

If you're randomly searching for Israeli injustices against innocent Palestinians you're going to be some time as there is certainly no shortage of incidents of absolute barbarity.

The Israeli government are guilty of completely heinous crimes, I can't fathom the mind of anyone who would excuse the killing of a small child simply because they wandered into "the wrong place", my point was simply; that for every single murderous Israeli, there are a hundred more who simply want a peaceful resolution to this conflict. Fear of a return to the suicide bombings and stabbing attacks of the 90's largely prevents them from actively calling for the removal of Israel's border walls and checkpoints, call them cowards, call them paranoid, but calling all Israelis murderous racists really doesn't help either side of the debate.

Odhinn

SnakePlissken wrote: »

If you're randomly searching for Israeli injustices against innocent Palestinians you're going to be some time as there is certainly no shortage of incidents of absolute barbarity.

The Israeli government are guilty of completely heinous crimes, I can't fathom the mind of anyone who would excuse the killing of a small child simply because they wandered into "the wrong place", my point was simply; that for every single murderous Israeli, there are a hundred more who simply want a peaceful resolution to this conflict. Fear of a return to the suicide bombings and stabbing attacks of the 90's largely prevents them from actively calling for the removal of Israel's border walls and checkpoints, call them cowards, call them paranoid, but calling all Israelis murderous racists really doesn't help either side of the debate.

They can have all the border walls and checkpoints they want in their 1967 borders. The problem is that they are expanding into the West Bank and the other territories.

SnakePlissken

Odhinn wrote: »

They can have all the border walls and checkpoints they want in their 1967 borders. The problem is that they are expanding into the West Bank and the other territories.

I agree, but I think we've gone beyond the point of Israel retreating to those historic borders. I genuinely feel the only long term viable plan is for a two-state solution with equal rights for both Palestinians and Israelis to the region... simple really, if only we could get the extremist Arabs and Jews from hating one another so vehemently.

skepticalme

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I agree, but I think we've gone beyond the point of Israel retreating to those historic borders. I genuinely feel the only long term viable plan is for a two-state solution with equal rights for both Palestinians and Israelis to the region... simple really, if only we could get the extremist Arabs and Jews from hating one another so vehemently.

If Israel don't retreat to the internationally recognised boarders, where is this 2 state solution going to be? The West Bank is riddled with settlements and outposts. It's also completely cut off from Gaza. Trumps deal of the century involves Egypt donating land for a Palastinian state. I don't think that will work.
As regards Israeli racism, it is coming from the top down.
Black people in Israel are called monkeys and the n word from the top.
They are also called terrorists which is the reason an Israeli gave for stabbing a 1 year old black baby in the head. Black women are coerced into getting long term contraceptive injections. They don't want them there.
The settlers beat up, harrass, burn the trees and houses of Palastinians with impunity, all done under the protection of the IDF.
Jews are not allowed marry non Jews.
And now they have cemented their racism in the new Nation State appartheid law.

SnakePlissken

skepticalme wrote: »

Black people in Israel are called monkeys and the n word from the top

This despicable comment was made by a single Rabbi, if you'd like me to quote several Palestinian Imans calling for all Jews to have their throats cut I can indulge you, not entirely sure you want to go down that rabbit hole though.

Quite simply, as long as there are those who seek to label all Israelis as bad, all Palestinians as good, without understanding the good and bad on both sides, we're never going to see an end to this conflict.

But this thread isn't about the greater conflict, it's about one mouthy gob****e in particular.

hatrickpatrick

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I agree, but I think we've gone beyond the point of Israel retreating to those historic borders. I genuinely feel the only long term viable plan is for a two-state solution with equal rights for both Palestinians and Israelis to the region... simple really, if only we could get the extremist Arabs and Jews from hating one another so vehemently.

A country doesn't get to "go beyond" the point of obeying international law. If they won't comply, the international community should isolate and blackball them economically, diplomatically, and militarily until they cave. That's the whole point of sanctions, and is the point that the BDS movement has been trying to make for years.

Madagascan

Israel is like someone who wants to be allowed to sit at the decent peoples' table without acting like a decent person. !"[/quote]

Who like some of the Countries sitting at that UN Human rights council.
Some of these Countries would like to destroy Israel.
The UNHRC.
Not fit for purpose
Israel hater.

Odhinn

Madagascan wrote: »

Who like some of the Countries sitting at that UN Human rights council.
Some of these Countries would like to destroy Israel.
The UNHRC.
Not fit for purpose
Israel hater.

They're guilty of hypocrisy, certainly, but no more than their israeli counterparts.

hatrickpatrick

Madagascan wrote: »

Israel is like someone who wants to be allowed to sit at the decent peoples' table without acting like a decent person. !"

Who like some of the Countries sitting at that UN Human rights council.
Some of these Countries would like to destroy Israel.
The UNHRC.
Not fit for purpose
Israel hater.

I'm not talking about the UNHRC, which I agree entirely is a total clusterf*ck and frankly an embarrassment. I'm talking about the EU, and its standards of human rights, diplomatic relations, and acceptable behaviour. Israel constantly bleats on about being the only Western style democracy in the Middle East and waxing lyrical about how EU countries (such as Ireland) should consider Israel an ally and a friend.

I'm simply putting forward the suggestion that in general you don't get to be friends with decent people or win their approval if you're a total scumbag. Israel either needs to change its behaviour, or stop whining and b!tching about not being considered "one of us".