Solar PV Grant now Available - SEAI

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Do the planning regs apply to panels at ground level.?

Calahonda52

Balanadan wrote: »

It applies to hybrid inverters too, you can end up operating the system inefficiently and achieving a lower yield with an incorrectly sized inverter.

Just looked at the grant properly, it pretty much halves the cost of a domestic PV system (not looking at battery storage)! It's ridiculous using taxpayer's money like that when you consider that they are phasing out the incentives in the UK. While it's exceptionally generous, and given the the limitations of domestic solar, why not focus on removing the barriers to solar PV deployment in Ireland? The SEAI don't appear to be at the same level as the MCS in terms of standards and regulations either, that should be one of the first things addressed before anything more is done! We're miles behind where we need to be.

Grants and carbon taxes should focus on energy conservation/ driving demand reduction right across the consumption spectrum and not Solar/wind/, which requires conventional backup and do nothing to reduce demand, in fact at the domestic level, it encourages consumption, as do thermal panels, because its FREE :eek::(

freddyuk

Calahonda52 wrote: »

+1
some immersions are only 2kW but electric rings on a cooker can be 1.6, 1.2, 0.8, 0.6 kW, the oven can be 2kW
Kettles can be 2/2.4
Get out the manual for the cooker and each ring should be listed.

freddy: do these inverters have a surge and continuous rating?

Yes they do for freezers/fridges etc. they need to cover the inrush current for a few seconds so can supply 100% extra.

My point is that is is quite easy to overload an inverter without realising and tripping the system off. Making breakfast and banging on the toaster and kettle while other loads are running. If you are super aware you can manage things but my plan is to run things as normal as far as possible without watching the power meter all the time. My inverter is 10kva so about 8kw which I reckon is the minimum for our house but we could still overload it if we had the immersion on but we don't use it except in emergencies.
The inverter has 2 outputs so that high loads such as immersion or electric boiler etc. will only run from the grid supply and will not drain the batteries but I am using one output so everything is off the battery supply. Solar comes in all day and is running the house loads and any surplus is charging the batteries. No grid power is used unless the batteries reach a pre set level. All solar is therefore used on site. If we wanted to go Offgrid we can measure the grid power used and then work out what generator is required to cover the grid element. Not happening as it is not financially viable but we will know for future reference if the power charges cross the red line and also will know how the system works and how to effectively manage it. If power trips out we will not even know as the grid is cut off and the batteries run the loads automatically. You would of course then want to switch off any unnecessary loads to maximise battery capacity.

Calahonda52

freddyuk wrote: »

Yes they do for freezers/fridges etc. they need to cover the inrush current for a few seconds so can supply 100% extra.

My point is that is is quite easy to overload an inverter without realising and tripping the system off. Making breakfast and banging on the toaster and kettle while other loads are running. If you are super aware you can manage things but my plan is to run things as normal as far as possible without watching the power meter all the time. My inverter is 10kva so about 8kw which I reckon is the minimum for our house but we could still overload it if we had the immersion on but we don't use it except in emergencies.

Thanks.
It is one thing for us to mentally manage loads but SWMBO, or teenagers are not that keen on such perceived restrictions:D

In passing as am interested but ignorant of such things:
if KVA = kW by PF, is the PF for the inverter 0.8?

quentingargan

Hayden Limited Tag wrote: »

Do the planning regs apply to panels at ground level.?

Yes - see page 3 of attached. "within the curtilage".

quentingargan

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Grants and carbon taxes should focus on energy conservation/ driving demand reduction right across the consumption spectrum and not Solar/wind/, which requires conventional backup and do nothing to reduce demand, in fact at the domestic level, it encourages consumption, as do thermal panels, because its FREE :eek::(

Totally agree. An export tariff would have been a much better way to go. One point though is hat although wind requires conventional backup, the combination of solar and wind requires it a lot less. Ireland has been a wind-driven one-trick pony where renewables are concerned apart from Ardnacrusha. Solar roll-out would reduce backup significantly.

Also, although backup is required, it is seldom used, so fossil fuel consumption still drops

Water John

Yes, it's a mix of renewables that is needed from various sources. Really can only be achieved with a long term plan with much of the energy requirements moving to electricity, nationally.
Sources and storage spread throughout the customer base would be key part of the national strategy.

quentingargan

Water John wrote: »

Yes, it's a mix of renewables that is needed from various sources. Really can only be achieved with a long term plan with much of the energy requirements moving to electricity, nationally.
Sources and storage spread throughout the customer base would be key part of the national strategy.

Yes - and while many householders will be (rightly) delighted with the grant, the best bang for the taxpayers buck would be commercial rooftops. While we are looking at 7 panels per house, commercial rooftops can often take a few thousand panels with lower hardware costs and a fraction of the install cost.

Shefwedfan

quentingargan wrote: »

Yes - see page 3 of attached. "within the curtilage".

I just seen this


The total aperture area of any such panel, taken together with any other such panel previously placed on or within the said curtilage, shall not exceed 12 square metres or 50% of the total roof area, whichever is the
lesser.


My roof is massive.....so do I need planning if the solar will cover less than 50%? that is what this seems to suggest

Thanks

Water John

Panels around 1.5 sq m, so 7/8. 300w x 8 = 2.4kw. Are my sums right?

There should be 3 different rates. Domestic, Commercial Roof and Solar farm. All FIT.

unkel

7 panels max

8 panels will go over 12m2

quentingargan

Water John wrote: »

Panels around 1.5 sq m, so 7/8. 300w x 8 = 2.4kw. Are my sums right?

There should be 3 different rates. Domestic, Commercial Roof and Solar farm. All FIT.

Panels typically 1.64 sq m so max 7 at about 300w.

The max area is the LESSER of half the roof or 12sqm.

Shefwedfan

Ok, from google maps my roof space is 350m2

So would I require planning permission for 4kWp of panels? I don't think so?

Water John

Shef, you're ignoring the 12 sq m max.

Gumbo

Hayden Limited Tag wrote: »

Do the planning regs apply to panels at ground level.?

Yes.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I just seen this


The total aperture area of any such panel, taken together with any other such panel previously placed on or within the said curtilage, shall not exceed 12 square metres or 50% of the total roof area, whichever is the
lesser.


My roof is massive.....so do I need planning if the solar will cover less than 50%? that is what this seems to suggest

Thanks

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ok, from google maps my roof space is 350m2

So would I require planning permission for 4kWp of panels? I don't think so?

Yes planning required for a 4kw system as the area of the panel exceed 12 Sq. M.

unkel

kceire wrote: »

Yes planning required for a 4kw system as the area of the panel exceed 12 Sq. M.

Were you able to confirm this rule applies even if the panels are at the back of the house or is it only for the front?

Shefwedfan

kceire wrote: »

Yes.




Yes planning required for a 4kw system as the area of the panel exceed 12 Sq. M.

Haha. I got excited and thought I could get away with it if it didn't take over 50% of the roof :P


I have contacted the County Council...see if I can get aorund it

niallers1

Just for information. The 12 Sq m size limit first came about becuase the maximum grant for solar thermal from SEAI equaled a system size of 12 Sq m. Planning law took the lead from SEAI not the other way around.

If planning follow the same logic with solar PV they should increase the Sq m allowable for Solar PV up to 4kw as 4kw is the maximum grant available from SEAI for solar PV.

Water John

So you're looking for 14 to be exempt IWT. It will be pretty odd if a planner refuses the grant size.

niallers1

That's what I'm thinking too. I think that rule will need to change to allow people to avail of the full grant.

So that would be 14 panels.

wexfordman2

it seems an arbitary figure anyway doesnt it ?

Why the limit in the first place, what is the logic for it ?

And then, why a fixed sq meterage when the size of house roofs varies so much, why have the same fixed sq area for a 3 bed semi, as to a detatched two story house ?

Shefwedfan

wexfordman2 wrote: »

it seems an arbitary figure anyway doesnt it ?

Why the limit in the first place, what is the logic for it ?

And then, why a fixed sq meterage when the size of house roofs varies so much, why have the same fixed sq area for a 3 bed semi, as to a detatched two story house ?

It should be percentage of the roof.....so less than 25% or something like that


That would suit me :P:P:P:P:P:P

wexfordman2

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It should be percentage of the roof.....so less than 25% or something like that


That would suit me :P:P:P:P:P:P

I think perhaps some.lobbying of local TD and a minister is in order, seems insane to have to go for planning for the grant on 4kwp systems

Water John

Yes the planning exclusion should be altered to match the grant max.

My house is facing SE. So I think I would put the panels on the ground against a fence.

Shefwedfan

What is the optimal position to place the panels? Is it on roof facing South?

The main roof most installers have picked is South East(maybe 150 degree) but this is right as you come in driveway

One guy mentioned filling up South West Roof(240 degree)? that would be hidden from view when coming into house?

Those degree are taken from iphone app

unkel

Depends really. East west is best if you spread your load during the day. You get the longest production of solar spread all over the day, which you can use throughout the day. South you get the highest peak of solar at lunchtime. South would be best if nobody is home during the day and most of your consumption is at night and / or if you are going to get (maybe later) a big ass battery

niallers1

If you had a Feed in tariff and at home around mid day then maybe south. We use most electricity from 2pm to evening so west is probably best for us for self consumption.

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

Were you able to confirm this rule applies even if the panels are at the back of the house or is it only for the front?

The regulation says the roof, so intrepretation of this would seem that the areas relate to the whole roof. The solar array would have to comply even to the rear.

Gumbo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have contacted the County Council...see if I can get aorund it

You can, apply for planning for the bigger array.

Gumbo

niallers1 wrote: »

Just for information. The 12 Sq m size limit first came about becuase the maximum grant for solar thermal from SEAI equaled a system size of 12 Sq m. Planning law took the lead from SEAI not the other way around.

If planning follow the same logic with solar PV they should increase the Sq m allowable for Solar PV up to 4kw as 4kw is the maximum grant available from SEAI for solar PV.

Interested to hear how this came about as Solar thermal systems never ever reached 12 Sq. M in my experience, probably half that at most.

Gumbo

Out of interest, here’s my graph for today.
3kw system on a completely south facing roof in Dublin 11.

It gives an idea about generation times, peak times etc
Bearing in mind today was partially cloudy etc

unkel

kceire wrote: »

Interested to hear how this came about as Solar thermal systems never ever reached 12 Sq. M in my experience, probably half that at most.

Yeah that's about right. My 40 tube solar thermal is about the same size as my 3 panel PV. Together less than 12m2

unkel

kceire wrote: »

The regulation says the roof, so intrepretation of this would seem that the areas relate to the whole roof. The solar array would have to comply even to the rear.

That's a bit crap. If you have the roof space and want to be serious about PV and you are going to pay a few grand for a few lads on top of your roof, you might as well go 3kwp or 4kwp or even more. 12m2 is just 7 panels so not much more than 2kwp

I take it you didn't apply for PP for your array? I can't see anyone being forced to take a couple of panels down tbh

Shefwedfan

Ok, so if I am going with 4kWp system would I be better to spread over 2 roofs than just a single roof?

Attached pic....so one company said to fill up roof on SE. This is right at front of house so I think it will look a mess. Especially with the amount of roof space

The other company who came most recently said to put some on the SE roof ok but to then put some on the SW roof.

In terms of usage. Really heavy usage is after 3 in day when over etc kicks in.

Maybe at 12 cooking for lunch but light workload.

What would be optimal?

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Attached pic....so one company said to fill up roof on SE.

That's a lower roof right? Of course they said they wanted to put the panels on there. It is far easier and cheaper to do than on a two storey roof

Here's what I did in about 2.5 hours all on my own a few weeks ago:



I wouldn't pay someone €2,000 for labour for an easy install like that in your picture. They'd be laughing all the way to the pub / the bank. The size of your house though. Nice

Decoda

So I've been looking at Solar PV for a while and with the announcement of the grants I've started to look more seriously. I figure that 4kWp seems to be around the minimum size I should be considering so I sent an email to the planning department of my local council (Wexford) and the response was as I feared....anything over 12sqm will require planning. I'm waiting for Electric Ireland (interested in their 0% interest option) to do a site visit and give me a quote but they have already indicated that anything over 12sqm will require planning permission and I must have this in place before they will install.

Response from Planner (Wexford County Council)


Class 2 The installation or erection of a solar panel on, or within the curtilage of a house, or any buildings within the curtilage of a house.

1. The total aperture area of any such panel, taken together with any other such panel previously placed on or within the said curtilage, shall not exceed 12 square metres or 50% of the total roof area, whichever is the lesser.

2. The distance between the plane of the wall or a pitched roof and the panel shall not exceed 15 centimetres.

3. The distance between the plane of a flat roof and the panel shall not exceed 50 centimetres.

4. The solar panel shall be a minimum of 50cm from any edge of the wall or roof on which it is mounted.

5. The height of a free-standing solar array shall not exceed 2 metres, at its highest point, above ground level.

6. A free-standing solar array shall not be placed on or forward of the front wall of a house.

7. The erection of any free standing solar array shall not reduce the area of private open space, reserved exclusively for the use of the occupants of the house, to the rear or to the side of the house to less than 25 square metres.



The cost of hiring someone to apply for permission just adds to the overall price, plus the hassle and the time delay. The planner did indicate that it was purely a rubber stamping operation due to my location, the fact that the panels would be on the rear of the house and that they only represent a fraction of my overall roof area. But its still a pain having to apply....

D.

Water John

Has anyone the, loss factor, if one orientates the panels to the SE or SW?
Schef, would you consider mounting them from the ground in the top left of the pic, facing south?

H.E. Pennypacker

Water John wrote: »

Has anyone the, loss factor, if one orientates the panels to the SE or SW?
Schef, would you consider mounting them from the ground in the top left of the pic, facing south?

You can get a reasonable idea of output with this calculator - just input your azimuth angle

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

That's a lower roof right? Of course they said they wanted to put the panels on there. It is far easier and cheaper to do than on a two storey roof

Here's what I did in about 2.5 hours all on my own a few weeks ago:



I wouldn't pay someone €2,000 for labour for an easy install like that in your picture. They'd be laughing all the way to the pub / the bank. The size of your house though. Nice

Thanks

No the whole house is bungalow.....so all roofs have similar access.....

Based on that handy work I could throw you a few quid and you could do it :P:P:P

rolion

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No the whole house is bungalow.....so all roofs have similar access.....


Based on that handy work I could throw you a few quid and you could do it :P:P:P

From the photo seems lots of free space around... WHY dont you do a ground based PV instalaltion where it can be adjusted to gain maximum gain based on Sun's position !?

Shefwedfan

rolion wrote: »

From the photo seems lots of free space around... WHY dont you do a ground based PV instalaltion where it can be adjusted to gain maximum gain based on Sun's position !?

The total site is attached below. Original plan was to fill up the sheds at the back but running cables from the shed to the fuse board could be issue. I have marked on map F for location of fuse board.


Also the shed are standard wooden ones. I talked to someone(I think quentingargen) and he said the standard wooden shed would not hold the panels. Also the red square is a steel open shed with a near flat roof.



Misses will not allow any of garden for mounted units as she would be afraid kids would kill themselves


Plus based on measurements the roof space is 350m2.....plenty of space for solar

P.S. Dont mind the grass colour.....that was taken mid-renovation and the garden had taken a hammering when cutting down tree's

unkel

rolion wrote: »

From the photo seems lots of free space around... WHY dont you do a ground based PV instalaltion where it can be adjusted to gain maximum gain based on Sun's position !?

Because it is far more expensive to ground mount, would unnecessarily take up garden space, more prone to damage and injury (kids) and it's an eye sore maybe?

And adjusting automatically is madness (far more expensive than putting in a few extra panels) and doing it manually would be a pain in the neck

But I agree with the space available. If you have to get PP anyway, I wouldn't go with the relatively very expensive 333W panels they are suggesting but would go for 300W panels and a few more of them. And if you are guaranteed the 6c FIT one utility provider seems to have, I would go BIG

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

I take it you didn't apply for PP for your array? I can't see anyone being forced to take a couple of panels down tbh

That question will not be answered on a public forum

Gumbo

Decoda wrote: »

So I've been looking at Solar PV for a while and with the announcement of the grants I've started to look more seriously. I figure that 4kWp seems to be around the minimum size I should be considering so I sent an email to the planning department of my local council (Wexford) and the response was as I feared....anything over 12sqm will require planning. I'm waiting for Electric Ireland (interested in their 0% interest option) to do a site visit and give me a quote but they have already indicated that anything over 12sqm will require planning permission and I must have this in place before they will install.

Response from Planner (Wexford County Council)


Class 2 The installation or erection of a solar panel on, or within the curtilage of a house, or any buildings within the curtilage of a house.

1. The total aperture area of any such panel, taken together with any other such panel previously placed on or within the said curtilage, shall not exceed 12 square metres or 50% of the total roof area, whichever is the lesser.

2. The distance between the plane of the wall or a pitched roof and the panel shall not exceed 15 centimetres.

3. The distance between the plane of a flat roof and the panel shall not exceed 50 centimetres.

4. The solar panel shall be a minimum of 50cm from any edge of the wall or roof on which it is mounted.

5. The height of a free-standing solar array shall not exceed 2 metres, at its highest point, above ground level.

6. A free-standing solar array shall not be placed on or forward of the front wall of a house.

7. The erection of any free standing solar array shall not reduce the area of private open space, reserved exclusively for the use of the occupants of the house, to the rear or to the side of the house to less than 25 square metres.



The cost of hiring someone to apply for permission just adds to the overall price, plus the hassle and the time delay. The planner did indicate that it was purely a rubber stamping operation due to my location, the fact that the panels would be on the rear of the house and that they only represent a fraction of my overall roof area. But its still a pain having to apply....

D.

That's just a copy and paste job from the SI.
We could have given you that response months ago

I very nearly had an application to lodge for a 3.3kw solar PV system recently, but the house owner just said he was going to leave it and take the chance.

I was kinda looking forward to lodging the application to see how it goes. Its a very straight forward planning app to make, but it does indeed come with the standard time delay, and associated costs of drawings, newspaper notices, maps etc etc

unkel

kceire wrote: »

That question will not be answered on a public forum

I've 40 tubes on my main roof. And 3 PV panels on my kitchen extension. That's less than 12m2. But do 3 panels on your shed count too? If so I won't confirm that I have those too on a public forum

Shefwedfan

Rang the county council.....no exemptions. Doesn't matter how big my roof is.

What they do need is a plan of where the panels will be installed on the house. Some other details.

Apart from that the guy said I would probably be able to submit myself....going to have a look at weekend at application forms

py

Trying to figure out the planning requirements/exception

If your house has the following:
Front roof 15sq/m
Rear roof 15sq/m
Extension roof 5sq/m

Can you put up to 12sq/m on the rear of the house and adhere to the limit of 12 sq/m and less than 50%?


edit: planning states total roof area so I guess the above is ok.

Gumbo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Rang the county council.....no exemptions. Doesn't matter how big my roof is.

What they do need is a plan of where the panels will be installed on the house. Some other details.

Apart from that the guy said I would probably be able to submit myself....going to have a look at weekend at application forms

Application form is easy. You'll need :

• Application Form
• €34
• OSi Map (Bought from Ordnance Survey Ireland and outlined as per the regulations and location of Site Notice marked)
• Newspaper notice in the appropriate paper
• Site Notice in garden along the front boundary where the entrance is and it has to be easily legible by the public. If you have 2 entrances onto 2 different roads, then you'll need 2 site notices and so on.
• Site Plan drawn up showing existing layout and proposed layout. This will need to indicate the location of the panels.
• Elevations drawn showing existing and proposed layout.
• These elevations need to be a streetscape, so need to show adjoining houses, or if out on your own a certain distance along each view.
• You'll also need a section through the property showing how the panels impact, profile and depth protruding from the roof plane etc
• I'd also include the tech data sheet for the panels which shows their dimensions etc so the planner can see their profile etc

py wrote: »

Trying to figure out the planning requirements/exception

If your house has the following:
Front roof 15sq/m
Rear roof 15sq/m
Extension roof 5sq/m

Can you put up to 12sq/m on the rear of the house and adhere to the limit of 12 sq/m and less than 50%?


edit: planning states total roof area so I guess the above is ok.

Yes, you can put the entire 12 Sq. M on the rear if you wish.
The solar array has a specific SI for its exemption, that's why it over rules any other exemption, for example, you could fill your entire rear roof with Velux windows and be exempt, but you cannot fill the entire roof with panels as the specific SI restricts it.

loyatemu

My impression of solar has been that both PV and water heating have poor payback periods and aren't worth doing. Adding a battery obviously helps for PV, so is this worth doing with the grant?

Our house faces WSW and there's a low roof at the front of about 14m2 - could I put panels there (the meter box is right below it too)?

Gumbo

loyatemu wrote: »

My impression of solar has been that both PV and water heating have poor payback periods and aren't worth doing. Adding a battery obviously helps for PV, so is this worth doing with the grant?

Our house faces WSW and there's a low roof at the front of about 14m2 - could I put panels there (the meter box is right below it too)?

You can place them there alright. It’s the consumer unit (fuse board) you need to connect to, not the meter box btw.