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PTSB selling mortgages to vulture funds

13

Comments

  • #62
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    That does not explain how you know or estimate there is an astonishing 40000 strategic defaulters!

    Read the annual reports from the banks and add the figures up.


  • #63
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    smelly sock wrote: »
    I personally dont think there are as much strategic defaulters or people just not bothering to pay as the banks amd certain areas of the media would have us believe.

    I would agree with this. Anytime you ask how this is known you get hear say or silence. I think we are really ignoring this issue. The basic fundamentals as to why this is happening are been completely ignored. I just can't envisage a situation where you would decide to not pay your mortgage when you could. This argument stinks.


  • #64
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    Read the annual reports from the banks and add the figures up.

    That still proves nothing. Your assuming that they chose not to pay and that banks are working with them and not against them.


  • #65
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    I would agree with this. Anytime you ask how this is known you get hear say or silence. I think we are really ignoring this issue. The basic fundamentals as to why this is happening are been completely ignored. I just can't envisage a situation where you would decide to not pay your mortgage when you could. This argument stinks.


    Your argument is not borne out by court cases.

    Read the court reports on every repossession order. In every case there have been no payments or miniscule payments for years.

    The loan books the banks are selling have a breakdown. 5,350 of these ptsb 10700 loans are deemed as not cooperating with no payments for over 3 years.

    That's just one tranche from one bank.


  • #66
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    That still proves nothing. Your assuming that they chose not to pay and that banks are working with them and not against them.

    I would consider a strategic defaulter as someone who knows what they are doing. They are in serious negative equity and saving what they could make in payments to there mortgage. If the loan gets touched on then they will have a lump sum to negotiate a settlement on negative equity portion and have outstanding rescheduled to what they can pay. Anyone else who is maintaining a silly lifestyle instead of paying is just foolish and need to be reigned in and given a chance of a long term resolution no matter what. Its quite possible that these people were offered so called long term resolutions that weren't so. This needs to be assesed. It is unclear as to whether vulture funds are obliged to offer long term resolutions as our own pillar banks do and these offers vary so much that it's quite possible people are holding out for a more realistic approach from their own bank.


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  • #67
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    I would consider a strategic defaulter as someone who knows what they are doing. They are in serious negative equity and saving what they could make in payments to there mortgage. If the loan gets touched on then they will have a lump sum to negotiate a settlement on negative equity portion and have outstanding rescheduled to what they can pay. Anyone else who is maintaining a silly lifestyle instead of paying is just foolish and need to be reigned in and given a chance of a long term resolution no matter what. Its quite possible that these people were offered so called long term resolutions that weren't so. This needs to be assesed. It is unclear as to whether vulture funds are obliged to offer long term resolutions as our own pillar banks do and these offers vary so much that it's quite possible people are holding out for a more realistic approach from their own bank.

    Or they can simply walk away from vulture fund for a relatively low amount.


  • #68
    boombang
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭boombang


    Anything that introduces some reality into the responsibility free zone of Ireland is welcome IMO. It's truly a place where the law abiding sucker pays for the feckless and cute hoor.


  • #69
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    I would consider a strategic defaulter as someone who knows what they are doing.

    That's the correct description and you'd be very very surprised at who some of them are. One couple who's case was in the papers were known to me. They never struck me as strategic defaulters aa they were very well off, yet they paid nothing off a very substantial mortgage for 6 years but lived a very good lifestyle.


  • #70
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    Your argument is not borne out by court cases.

    Read the court reports on every repossession order. In every case there have been no payments or miniscule payments for years.

    The loan books the banks are selling have a breakdown. 5,350 of these ptsb 10700 loans are deemed as not cooperating with no payments for over 3 years.

    Yes that's still just half and if this half were not offered adequate long term resolutions then where do you stand? Remember it's the lender that deems what is an adequate long tern resolution based on your sfs and if you accept this fact at the first go then you are doomed. I completely agree that anyone not paying because they can should be thrown to the wolves with no possibility of redeeming themselves. This process is a negotiation and if we are talking about these negotiations happening 3yrs ago then they would have been very difficult.


  • #71
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    That's the correct description and you'd be very very surprised at who some of them are. One couple who's case was in the papers were known to me. They never struck me as strategic defaulters aa they were very well off, yet they paid nothing off a very substantial mortgage for 6 years but lived a very good lifestyle.
    I wouldn't be surprised at all but I don't think all these loans are strategic defaulters.


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  • #72
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    Ptsb snd lone stsr are the big winners here. Us the tax psyer are loosers. We will have to pay legal costs and house families who have no homes.


  • #73
    thunderdog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,675 ✭✭✭thunderdog


    This had to be considered on a European scale rather than just an Irish issue. PTSB had one of the highest NPL rates in Europe and on the back of that they came under pressure from the ECB (and CBI) to reduce their NPL book. Due to policy at the time, going down the repossession route wasn’t an option back in 2008-2011,so the bank went down offering deafulted mortgages a forbearance treatment. Many customers engaged with the bank and some were put on quite favourable treatments in order for the bank to recoup some of the original loan.


    Now we’re in a situation where both the ECB and CBI have put.pressure on PTSB to get their NOL book in with the European avearage. PTSB Have initially looked at their non engagers and packaged them up into this deal.most of this large NPL loan sale were Long term defaulters. It is the long term defaulters who cause our interest rates to increase.


  • #74
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    CeilingFly wrote: »
    Your argument is not borne out by court cases.

    Read the court reports on every repossession order. In every case there have been no payments or miniscule payments for years.

    The loan books the banks are selling have a breakdown. 5,350 of these ptsb 10700 loans are deemed as not cooperating with no payments for over 3 years.

    Yes that's still just half. Going to leave it at that.


  • #75
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    thunderdog wrote: »
    This had to be considered on a European scale rather than just an Irish issue. PTSB had one of the highest NPL rates in Europe and on the back of that they came under pressure from the ECB (and CBI) to reduce their NPL book. Due to policy at the time, going down the repossession route wasn’t an option back in 2008-2011,so the bank went down offering deafulted mortgages a forbearance treatment. Many customers engaged with the bank and some were put on quite favourable treatments in order for the bank to recoup some of the original loan.


    Now we’re in a situation where both the ECB and CBI have put.pressure on PTSB to get their NOL book in with the European avearage. PTSB Have initially looked at their non engagers and packaged them up into this deal.most of this large NPL loan sale were Long term defaulters. It is the long term defaulters who cause our interest rates to increase.

    Correct but aib have acted in a pro active manner on this using the carrot approach and seem to be turning very bad loans into good loans. Remember ptsb initially had performing split mortgages in this and were forced to back down. Aib has gotten splits classed as performing loans. This situation needs a smarter approach.


  • #76
    thunderdog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,675 ✭✭✭thunderdog


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    Correct but aib have acted in a pro active manner on this using the carrot approach and seem to be turning very bad loans into good loans. Remember ptsb initially had performing split mortgages in this and were forced to back down. Aib has gotten splits classed as performing loans. This situation needs a smarter approach.

    Fair point but ptsb always had a much larger relative NPL book (admittedly on the back of very casual lending 10+ years ago). As a result they have been under increasing pressure to get their NPLs within the European average. The only way they were ever going to achieve this (given our national policy around repossessions) was to sell a good chunk of the NPLs


  • #77
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    thunderdog wrote: »
    Fair point but ptsb always had a much larger relative NPL book (admittedly on the back of very casual lending 10+ years ago). As a result they have been under increasing pressure to get their NPLs within the European average. The only way they were ever going to achieve this (given our national policy around repossessions) was to sell a good chunk of the NPLs

    True but I guess I haven't been very clear about this. It is not just about the fact that people will/may be repossed. If someone was offered a mediocre resolution and thought they were goosed it actually means there was good stable income there in the first instance. It's just the right solution wasn't agreed and the head went in the sand without realising that chances of a successful appeal were quite high. It's quite possible a lot of these loans are worth quite a lot more than they are been sold for. The loan manager is going to be regulated the same as ptsb so will face the same problems with possession orders regardless of how aggressive they are. Deals will be done particularly for those in negative equity. If aib are getting splits classed as performing, no reason the rest can't.


  • #78
    duffman13
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,953 ✭✭✭duffman13


    Hennesm wrote: »
    As I said I don't want charity but a warning would've been nice, I had a branch meeting last week . An explanation as to why my €2900 remaining mortgage is being dumped after I have paid it in full and on time for over 191/2 years and yes some loyalty to me as a customer . That's not too much to ask for after all the fees I have paid as a customer over the years . Let me be clear I am not asking for a write off I am asking my lender to deal with me as a person and take into account the unnecessary stress they cause .

    If you are paying a higher rate it's not necessarily because of non payers and more than likely because of the banks greed? As has been the cause of the whole bond holders and austerity fiasco . The European central lending rate is at an all time low . They can afford to give better rates but don't . They write off business loans, restructure buy to let's and then blame Europe for everything .
    So that what we get now is a nation of people who no longer have any empathy and look to justify sharp practice as it may lead to a lower mortgage rate in 18 months ???

    Do you have a BTL with PTSB aswell? That's mental if your property has 1) been sold if performing and 6 months left and 2) Start actually wanted it.

    The 1050 performing home (primary dwelling) loans sold were connected to buy to let properties of which the majority of which were more than 4 years in arrears.


  • #79
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    duffman13 wrote: »
    Do you have a BTL with PTSB aswell? That's mental if your property has 1) been sold if performing and 6 months left and 2) Start actually wanted it.

    The 1050 performing home (primary dwelling) loans sold were connected to buy to let properties of which the majority of which were more than 4 years in arrears.

    Its bundled. The admin time taken to sort a small arrears issue is almost as much as a large arrears issue. They don't have 500 different categories. You are either a mortgage in arrears or not.

    Also as said many times, Start is fully regulated consumer credit provider and has to work in the exact same system as ptsb. Just they'll be more pro-active in getting agreements done and will want to try and move mortgages to a "performing" status quicker. Once they have the mortgage "performing" they can resell them at a profit.


  • #80
    duffman13
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,953 ✭✭✭duffman13


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    Its bundled. The admin time taken to sort a small arrears issue is almost as much as a large arrears issue. They don't have 500 different categories. You are either a mortgage in arrears or not.

    Also as said many times, Start is fully regulated consumer credit provider and has to work in the exact same system as ptsb. Just they'll be more pro-active in getting agreements done and will want to try and move mortgages to a "performing" status quicker. Once they have the mortgage "performing" they can resell them at a profit.

    It's bundled but the OP said no arrears or did I miss that? Either way, some customers will do well out of the switch tbh.


  • #81
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,586 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    smelly sock wrote: »
    I personally dont think there are as much strategic defaulters or people just not bothering to pay as the banks amd certain areas of the media would have us believe.

    Some time spent in the Civil Registrar's court may change your mind.


    http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2015/04/cork-county-registrars-list-civil.html


    https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/report-on-the-dublin-repossession-courts-friday-27th-july-2018.209095/


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  • #82
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,586 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    I think the discussion in relation to default or strategic default needs to be expanded to why this is happening? There is an very simplistic view been taken on this issue. Would you agree?

    https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/quantifying-the-level-of-strategic-defaulters.207707/


  • #83
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    Geuze wrote: »
    https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/quantifying-the-level-of-strategic-defaulters.207707/

    Id agree with that. If 2700 havent engaged and are 5 years in arrears they should be evicted. Thats just crazy carry on.


  • #84
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,586 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    smelly sock wrote: »
    Id agree with that. If 2700 havent engaged and are 5 years in arrears they should be evicted. Thats just crazy carry on.

    Yes.

    All BTL cases should be resolved in next 12 months, every case cleared, even if that requires new legislation.


  • #85
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    Geuze wrote: »
    https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/quantifying-the-level-of-strategic-defaulters.207707/

    Askaboutmoney really are you serious? Yeah sure the bank is telling it like it is? What is this round three of what loans are involved in this sale. Nobody knows what long term resolutions were offered and again the taxpayer wiĺl lose in this sale.


  • #86
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    Scanners2 wrote: »
    CeilingFly wrote: »
    Your argument is not borne out by court cases.

    Read the court reports on every repossession order. In every case there have been no payments or miniscule payments for years.

    The loan books the banks are selling have a breakdown. 5,350 of these ptsb 10700 loans are deemed as not cooperating with no payments for over 3 years.

    Yes that's still just half. Going to leave it at that.


  • #87
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    Scanners2 wrote: »
    Scanners2 wrote: »

    Yes if someone hasn't engaged, paid or picked up the phone then good luck with vulture fund you won't last long. For everyone else it needs clarification as to whether they were offered a long term resolution or not. At the end of the day it will be the taxpayer who ends up losing two fold.


  • #88
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    Scanners2 wrote: »
    Scanners2 wrote: »
    Scanners2 wrote: »

    Sweet f##k all repossession's compared to the overall problem so don't see your point. There will always be people who scheme. You did reference weddings etc for estimating strategic defaulters?


  • #89
    Hennesm
    Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭Hennesm


    duffman13 wrote: »
    Do you have a BTL with PTSB aswell? That's mental if your property has 1) been sold if performing and 6 months left and 2) Start actually wanted it.

    The 1050 performing home (primary dwelling) loans sold were connected to buy to let properties of which the majority of which were more than 4 years in arrears.

    Nope , no btl . That's why I'm terrified as to why they want my mortgage


  • #90
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    Hennesm wrote: »
    Nope , no btl . That's why I'm terrified as to why they want my mortgage

    I think once more people start to get their letters we will find out the real truth in the coming days. PTSB are not telling the whole truth here. No way.


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  • #91
    Scanners2
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Scanners2


    smelly sock wrote: »
    I think once more people start to get their letters we will find out the real truth in the coming days. PTSB are not telling the whole truth here. No way.

    I agree totally Smelly smock and this is the big issue in this. Bank hasn't changed its conduct since the good old days. Regulator asleep at the wheel again.


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