Sign required to indicate taxi rank?

fletch

I was parked on the prom at Bray here recently and received a fine in the post for being parked in a taxi rank yesterday. I did notice the markings on the ground at the time but there were other cars parked there so I figured perhaps it wasn't a rank anymore (no defense I know). Anyway I had a good look around and didn't see any signs either so figured I was good.
When I look around now (on Google Maps), I see that there is a sign across the road detailing the hours of restriction.

Does the sign across the road apply to both sides of the road? Is a sign necessary on each side of the road to indicate a rank?

The fine is only €40 so I will just pay it, but would like to know for future reference as I would have expected the signs should be on both sides of the road

fletch

Did some googling...

http://trafficsigns.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/05-traffic-signs-manual-2010-chapter-5-regulatory-signs.pdf

5.17.12 The Taxi Stand Sign, RUS 020, indicates an
appointed stand for taxis. No vehicle other than a
taxi which is available for hire may stop at an
appointed stand. Chapter 7 illustrates the
associated road markings. If the taxi stand is only
operative at certain times, the days and hours of
operation shall be specified on an accompanying
Supplementary Plate P 051.

5.17.13 At each end of a taxi stand, Sign RUS 020 may be
displayed with one arrow omitted, to indicate the
direction of the stand.

I don't see a Sign RUS 020 at each end of the rank unless it's been added since the Google Maps image was taken?

Dravokivich

When the weather is good, there's a lot of bad parking at nice places to go, because they see someone else do it too.

stoneill

I remember some time ago a bloke I know got off with a parking fine because
the no parking sign had been turned around and was facing toward the footpath and not the road.
So you are probably correct - no sign, no fine.

Cuddlesworth

"may be" is interesting wording. Does that mean its optional?

fletch

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

"may be" is interesting wording. Does that mean its optional?

I presume it wouldn't be interpreted in my favour if I fought it.

Also "If the taxi stand is only operative at certain times, the days and hours of operation shall be specified on an accompanying Supplementary Plate P 051"...does this also imply that if the sign isn't present, it is always operative?

"It is alleged that an offence has been committed, Parking at An Appointed Taxi Stand (Traffic Sign number RUS 020 in Association with RRM 029) - (Registered Owner) Contrary to Section 35(5) of the Road Traffic Act 1994 involving the driving or use of a mechanically propelled vehicle bearing identification mark XXXXXX in a public place at STRAND ROAD, BRAY, WICKLOW at 20:30 hrs on 18/07/2018."

Tiercel Dave

Just looking at the scene on 'Street View' it appears that the Taxi rank is on the opposite side of the road to the signs!......

fletch

Tiercel Dave wrote: »

Just looking at the scene on 'Street View' it appears that the Taxi rank is on the opposite side of the road to the signs!......

Yes exactly...It's frustrating as I know I can't just ring up the station and say they've made a mistake....I'll need a day off work so it'll be cheaper in the long run to just pay the fine. I might send an email/letter to the station to get it off my chest

fletch

Anybody around Bray able to check if the signs are on both sides of the road (as Google Maps may be out of date)?

fletch

fletch wrote: »

Anybody around Bray able to check if the signs are on both sides of the road (as Google Maps may be out of date)?

I have a couple of annual leave days to use so maybe I will go fight it. It'd be interesting to see how it would go...I presume I can't claim for expenses due to the Garda's incompetence?

Also what is 18.30 pm? It's not a valid time format that I know of. Presume it either means 6:30 p.m. or 18:30?
Interesting, neither is 8.30 am.... it should be 8:30 am. (The dot/period separator should be a colon)

V8 Interceptor

^^
You're pushing it a bit there Fletch

fletch

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

^^
You're pushing it a bit there Fletch

The time issues are technicalities for sure but we regularly hear of cases being thrown out on technicalities.... :P

CeilingFly

If you get pedantic you'll find they will not allow an appeal.

If you simply write into the council and explain that there is no signage giving details of restrictive times, then you have a good chance of having it quashed without needing it to go to court.

Being pleasant in your letter and straight to the point will always elicit the best response.

Though I can't see where an appeal could be successful as it is clearly marked as a taxi rank and as no time is displayed I'd assume that its 24/7

I'd be saying that you assumed that the time printed across the road was applicable to the space you were parked on. - and hope you get someone on a good day.

fletch

CeilingFly wrote: »

If you simply write into the council and explain that there is no signage giving details of restrictive times, then you have a good chance of having it quashed without needing it to go to court.

The fine is from the Gardai so I am not sure the council can quash it as it's out of their hands now (and the Gardai's for that matter)? I think it has to go to court now if I don't pay.

CeilingFly wrote: »

Though I can't see where an appeal could be successful as it is clearly marked as a taxi rank and as no time is displayed I'd assume that its 24/7

But it's not clearly marked. There was/is no RUS 020 sign at either end of the rank. My take from the link above is that the sign is required and it may have one or two arrows indicating the direction of the stand

GM228

fletch wrote: »

It is alleged that an offence has been committed, Parking at An Appointed Taxi Stand (Traffic Sign number RUS 020 in Association with RRM 029) - (Registered Owner) Contrary to Section 35(5) of the Road Traffic Act 1994 involving the driving or use of a mechanically propelled vehicle bearing identification mark XXXXXX in a public place at STRAND ROAD, BRAY, WICKLOW at 20:30 hrs on 18/07/2018."

The offence comes under R36 (2)(e) of the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997 (as amended) which is as follows:-

Prohibitions on parking

36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5 a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose, referred to in sub-article (2).

(2) A vehicle shall not be parked—

(e) on a section of roadway where traffic sign number RUS 020 (taxis), in association with RRM 029 (appointed stand), has been placed to indicate that an appointed stand has been provided,

Both RUS 020 and RRM 029 must be present for an offence to occur, it appears that only RRM 029 is present, that is not enough.

Spook_ie

Don't know if it clears or muddies the water but did find this on a google search
http://www.bray.ie/amendment-bray-town-appointed-stands-bye-laws-2011/taxi-rank-strand-road-layout-2016-2/

Spook_ie

It would also appear from the relevant by laws that it is a 24 hour rank not a part time one.

http://www.bray.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Review-of-Appointed-Stands-Bye-laws-2011.pdf

SCHEDULE 1 PERMANENT APPOINTED STANDS 24 HOUR TAXI RANKS

2! Strand Road ! East side of the road from a point 12m south of its junction with Sidmonton Avenue extending southwards for a distance of 42m ! 8! Single line parallel by kerb facing south

fletch

Spook_ie wrote: »

It would also appear from the relevant by laws that it is a 24 hour rank not a part time one.

http://www.bray.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Review-of-Appointed-Stands-Bye-laws-2011.pdf

Super thanks for the info Spook_ie. So the only unknown here is whether a RUS 020 sign(s) is/are in place then (presuming the one across the road is not sufficient). I will drive out to Bray for a look soon.

CeilingFly

look like the pole is there, but no sign is affixed.

You can appeal to the garda fines office https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Fixed-Charge-Notices/Cancelling-Fixed-Charge-Notices.html

fletch

Anybody in Bray able to save me the spin over? :)

fletch

CeilingFly wrote: »

look like the pole is there, but no sign is affixed.

You can appeal to the garda fines office https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Fixed-Charge-Notices/Cancelling-Fixed-Charge-Notices.html

It seems you are right! https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2018214,-6.0976269,3a,36.2y,76.61h,88.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn_J36LAtbD5G9yLFk_BCDQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I wonder what category I can apply for a cancellation... Exceptional circumstances?

Spook_ie

You can try and appeal based on the confusion of the signs on the opposite side of the road but I would suspect that as there doesn't seem to any need for signposts in the manual not having one doesn't stop it being a taxi rank.

http://trafficsigns.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/07-traffic-signs-manual-2010-chapter-7-road-markings.pdf


TAXI STAND (RRM 029)
7.6.13 A Taxi Stand is indicated by the markings to RRM 029 shown
below. The lines forming the taxi stand shall be white and
100mm wide. The wording ‘TAXIS’ shall appear at least once in
each stand, repeated at intervals of not more than 4m, and shall
be parallel to the kerb and facing towards the centre of the
roadway. The terminal points of the taxi stand shall be indicated
by double broken markings consisting of 600mm lines and
600mm gaps perpendicular to the kerb.



EDIT

Just noting from the councils own map there should be an RUS 020 sign which appears to be missing, go for the appeal but be prepared to have to fight I reckon, also get current photographs with date/time etc. witnessed as Google image is 2 months out of date.

fletch

Thanks for all the info Spook...sometimes I hate boards but it's times like this I love it.

I also note "The terminal points of the taxi stand shall be indicated by double broken markings consisting of 600mm lines and 600mm gaps perpendicular to the kerb." This doesn't appear to be the case at one end either. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2021788,-6.0978351,3a,75y,58.33h,48.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sremEKjRD4N57DDbqlDbYuw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And it's also arguable that the lines are missing at the other end, as the double markings here appear to mark the start of the parking as opposed to the end of the taxi rank.

Spook_ie

I'd say go for it, what's the most they can do?


EDIT maybe post the salient points over on legal and ask if it would constitute grounds for appeal, but they aren't allowed to actually give legal advice for that you'd need Citizens Advice or a Solicitor

allthedoyles

fletch wrote: »

I have a couple of annual leave days to use so maybe I will go fight it. It'd be interesting to see how it would go...I presume I can't claim for expenses due to the Garda's incompetence?

Also what is 18.30 pm? It's not a valid time format that I know of. Presume it either means 6:30 p.m. or 18:30?
Interesting, neither is 8.30 am.... it should be 8:30 am. (The dot/period separator should be a colon)

There is no colon when the time is in hundred hours . That sign should be either one of these :
6:30pm - 8:00am or 1830hrs - 0800hrs

GM228

Spook_ie wrote: »

You can try and appeal based on the confusion of the signs on the opposite side of the road but I would suspect that as there doesn't seem to any need for signposts in the manual not having one doesn't stop it being a taxi rank.

You are correct that by law only RRM 029 is required to make it a taxi rank and RUS 020 is optional, however that's only in relation to the question of weather or not it is a rank, not the question of any offence being committed. To commit the offence both signs must be present as already shown.

GM228

allthedoyles wrote: »

There is no colon when the time is in hundred hours . That sign should be either one of these :
6:30pm - 8:00am or 1830hrs - 0800hrs

People need to realise that the use of : in the time format is one relating to a standard set by the International Organization for Standardization, not law.

I'm also pretty sure that the appropriate standard allows for the substitution of : with . and also allows the use of a comma for example. ISO standards are not absolute, are not the only formats and have no force of law.

The information signs are not prescribed by law so how the time is written is irrelevant.