Why the north outside EU changes everything for the island

prinzeugen

Peregrinus wrote: »

In the 2014 referendum they were promised that if they voted to remain the power of the devolved government would be enlarged, but instead it is being reduced.

The Scottish Parliament will have exactly the same number of powers after Brexit as it does now. There is no "power grab", powers are not being reduced etc. That is just the usual SNP bullcrap.

The SNP are just pissed off that the powers that are being returned from Brussels are going to Westminster not Edinburgh. The majority of these powers could not be devolved anyway as they affect the UK as a whole.

realitykeeper

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Yes, before Sean Lemass.

I think Dev lacked imagination but Lemass was the kind of Irishman who would throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Peregrinus

prinzeugen wrote: »

The Scottish Parliament will have exactly the same number of powers after Brexit as it does now. There is no "power grab", powers are not being reduced etc. That is just the usual SNP bullcrap.

No, because Westminster takes the view that the Sewell convention doesn't apply to legislation enacted to implement a (non-binding) refernendum. And it also doesn't apply to the referendum itself, or the decision to hold it.

So, Westminster wants do do something that will impact on a devolved matter and they don't want to seek consent from the devolved authorities? Just say its part of the implementation of the referendum result. Presto!

As I say, the Scots are not stupid. Some in England may deny that this is happening, but they will not be believed.

con___manx1

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Scots might not be so keen!

Dont forget they voted to stay in the uk before the brexit vote. If the brexit vote was before there one it might hsve been a different outcome.

Kermit.de.frog

con___manx1 wrote: »

Dont forget they voted to stay in the uk before the brexit vote. If the brexit vote was before there one it might hsve been a different outcome.

On the basis the UK would not leave the European Union...

If they had known that little Englanders would drag them out the UK would be over.

Annasopra

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Yes, before Sean Lemass.

And before joining the EU of course

blinding

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

On the basis the UK would not leave the European Union...

If they had known that little Englanders would drag them out the UK would be over.

One third of SNP Voters Voted for Brexit . This and the General Election results softened the Cough of the SNP Bigly .

Kermit.de.frog

blinding wrote: »

One third of SNP Voters Voted for Brexit . This and the General Election results softened the Cough of the SNP Bigly .

100% of SNP voters voted for independence. Your point is null and void.

Next!

blinding

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

100% of SNP voters voted for independence. Your point is null and void.

Next!

Actually not all SNP voters voted for Independence . People vote for Parties for all sorts of reasons .

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ha ha actually Scotland were told by the better together campaign that a vote to leave the UK would be a vote to leave the EU. Then the UK left against the wishes of Scotland. The Scottish independence crowd wanted to leave and then apply for membership as a seperate country.

They were also told by the SNP that there would not be a hard border between England and Scotland. One thing Brexit has shown us, is that there almost certainly would be.

Peregrinus

Aegir wrote: »

They were also told by the SNP that there would not be a hard border between England and Scotland. One thing Brexit has shown us, is that there almost certainly would be.

There wouldn't have been in 2014, if the UK remained in the EU and Scotland joined either the EU or the EEA/CU.

There would be now, of course, if Scotland leaves post-Brexit UK and joins the EU. Unless the solution that is applied to avoid an Irish border is also applied to avoid a Scottish border.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

There wouldn't have been in 2014, if the UK remained in the EU and Scotland joined either the EU or the EEA/CU.

So the SNP can’t see in to the future either?

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The passport controls at the border will be pure entertainment gold.

Most underrated image of the thread!

steddyeddy

blinding wrote: »

One third of SNP Voters Voted for Brexit . This and the General Election results softened the Cough of the SNP Bigly .

But most of all Scottish voted remain including Scottish unionistists.

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

There will have to be border checks at every crossing point, either UK or EU manned, otherwise a plane can just arrive from Kerblackistan and those onboard can simply get buses up north to arrive in the UK with no check whatsoever entering the UK. The Unionists will not stand for passport checks at NIRL ports/airports for people travelling to Scotland/Wales/England.

They would need visas to enter an EU country first

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

But most of all Scottish voted remain including Scottish unionistists.

And?

steddyeddy

Aegir wrote: »

And?

And a lot of them voted remain because they were told that they'd lose EU access in an independent Scotland. Turns out they were being lied to.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

And a lot of them voted remain because they were told that they'd lose EU access in an independent Scotland. Turns out they were being lied to.

They would have. That wasn’t a lie.

They would have had a hard border as well, so the SNP were lieing

Hotblack Desiato

Taytoland wrote: »

You

I'm not Scottish and don't live in Scotland.

want to leave the Union and yet use the pound currency, while having to rejoin the European Union which would require you to join the Euro. How is that remotely going to happen?

It'll happen very easily if the Scottish people want it to.

They can continue to use the pound after independence. Bank of England or rump UK government can't stop them.

They rejoin the EU and will have an obligation to join the Euro - eventually - in practice this can be put off for as long as they want. Sweden has no sign of joining the euro yet. Changing currency is no big deal, it was a breeze here.

It's simply not and the Scottish people knew all this in 2014 and it reflects in the vote.

 

Whatever about 2014 they voted to remain in the EU in 2016, as NI did, and yet are being dragged out, as NI is.

If the Scottish people decide being dictated to by England is no longer in their interest, they're out, simple as. A disastrous brexit will increase the likelihood of this greatly.

The Scottish referendum was called in March 2013, you

Not me. Are you paying attention?

had more than a whole year to make the argument for it and it failed, utterly. So you have no excuse, the Scottish people had a choice if they wanted to leave the Union and it was rejected.

It was close the last time when a lot of BS promises about voting No safeguarding their EU status were made. Brexit is a game-changer and they only need 5% of the electorate to change from union to independence.

Incidentally the governance of the UK has been nothing but an embarrassment for the last 5 years or so. Either the UK reverses course or its future and even existence are not looking good at all.

Taytoland

Peregrinus wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

But they wanted to LEAVE the EU, that is what Scottish Independence means. They wanted to LEAVE and then JOIN, yeah, good luck with that. They must think Scottish people are idiots.

Try to get your story straight, Tayto.  In 2014 Scottish independence would have meant leaving the EU and then applying to rejoin.  However, as you yourself pointed out, the independence referendum was lost.  So it's not true to say they wanted to leave the EU; they voted in a way that would keep them in it.  They voted that way again in 2016, by an even larger margin.  But now they are being taken out, because the English want to leave, and the Sewell convention has been shredded

The Scots are not as stupid as you think.  They notice these things.  They voted twice to remain in the EU but they are being taken out.  In the 2014 referendum they were promised that if they voted to remain the power of the devolved government would be enlarged, but instead it is being reduced.  If you think that the Scots will accept this as wise and just because it's what the English want, you are not thinking straight.

Remain didn't win 2014 because of the EU issue, it won because Scottish Independence was just not practical economically and Alex Salmond plans got exposed in the months leading up to the vote. They had plenty of debate on the issue and month and months to discuss the issue.

But no evidence has been given to me that would show Scotland being able to keep the pound and join the Euro. If someone can provide some, it would be gratefully received.

Taytoland

They can continue to use the pound after independence. Bank of England or rump UK government can't stop them.

They rejoin the EU and will have an obligation to join the Euro - eventually - in practice this can be put off for as long as they want.

If only you could post gifs on this forum, the clutching at straws one would be needed for this post. You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

steddyeddy

Aegir wrote: »

They would have. That wasn’t a lie.

They would have had a hard border as well, so the SNP were lieing

Well a lot voted on the basis of staying in the EU. Now they won't be able to rejoin the EU unless they apply as an independent country. So yes the conditions for Scottish independence are completely different now.

steddyeddy

Taytoland wrote: »

If only you could post gifs on this forum, the clutching at straws one would be needed for this post. You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

I don't see the age of the union as relevant?

steddyeddy

Taytoland wrote: »

Remain didn't win 2014 because of the EU issue, it won because Scottish Independence was just not practical economically and Alex Salmond plans got exposed in the months leading up to the vote. They had plenty of debate on the issue and month and months to discuss the issue.

But no evidence has been given to me that would show Scotland being able to keep the pound and join the Euro. If someone can provide some, it would be gratefully received.

How could the rest of the UK prevent Scotland keeping the pound?

The Rape of Lucretia

Taytoland wrote: »

But no evidence has been given to me that would show Scotland being able to keep the pound and join the Euro. If someone can provide some, it would be gratefully received.

There being no precedent for those that precise case, the request for such evidence is a nonsense request, and the lack of the evidence does not show that Scotland couldnt have been able to keep the pound and join the EU.
One can only consider what would likely or possibly have occurred had that situation come about.

And the conclusion can only be that they could have kept the pound, and could have joined the EU (which I assume is what you mean by join the euro).
There are and have been many cases of one country pegging its currencies to another - effectively having the same currency, even if that means being at the mercy of the second country's monetary policy. As close to home as Eire and the Irish pound up to 1979.

And there are no cases of the EU not letting a state in its region join, particularly on e which in this case would already have been a member, and therefore met all conditions for membership without further alignment. The EU is about integration and keeping its members together, not jettisoning them. That Scotland would in anyway have been punished for leaving the UK, or be seen not to be EU member material is simply preposterous. They would have joined.

prinzeugen

prinzeugen wrote: »

Its happened since the CTA came into being. Are you one of the thicks that think a hard Britex means walls, barbed wire and watch towers like they had on the inner German border before socialism/communism failed in the East in 1989?

Get a grip and get real. That twat Tony Connolly on RTE would have people think a new Berlin wall is about to go up.

Not one of the Irish media outlets has mentioned the CTA. Just the "EU good, Britex bad", "Hard border" etc.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=common+travel+area&client=opera&hs=K9i&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP6ZSUptbcAhVNyxoKHeztCnsQ_AUICigB&biw=1496&bih=755

Plenty of mentions there.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well a lot voted on the basis of staying in the EU. Now they won't be able to rejoin the EU unless they apply as an independent country. So yes the conditions for Scottish independence are completely different now.

And a lot voted on the basis it would take them out of the Eu.

The Eu is incredibly unpopular in parts of Scotland and those parts are SNP strongholds as well.

Hotblack Desiato

Taytoland wrote: »

If only you could post gifs on this forum, the clutching at straws one would be needed for this post. You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

Your failure to counter any argument with facts is noted.

They joined the union in the first place on the basis of threats, promises, bribery, and lies, same as Ireland did in 1800.

It is a fact that an independent Scotland can continue to use the pound for as long as they want. They can transition to the euro at a time of their own choosing.

blinding

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Your failure to counter any argument with facts is noted.

They joined the union in the first place on the basis of threats, promises, bribery, and lies, same as Ireland did in 1800.

It is a fact that an independent Scotland can continue to use the pound for as long as they want. They can transition to the euro at a time of their own choosing.

The Scots bottled it when they had the chance and the SNP got a straightener in the last General election . That with One Third of SNP voters voting for Brexit has softened the SNP’s cough .

This Brexit thingy has support from a lot of places and has given British politics the damn fine kicking up the @ss it so badly needed . The Elites getting a damn fine taste of Democracy . Its a beautiful thing .

bilston

steddyeddy wrote: »

I know right. Try explaining that to Brexiters though. If 32% of all business in a country are having a down turn it's not a good thing. I think Brexiter's idea of economics is that a country is doing great unless 100% of companies are having a down turn. Even then it's fingers in the ears and rule Brittania all the way.

There was a guy on Sky News the other night, a Brexiteer, and he was criticising "Project Fear" for claiming that 10,000 city jobs would be lost in London azs aa result of Brexit. He literally took great delight in stating that only 5,000 jobs would be lost...I mean FFS, how do these chancers get away with comments like that. Now it's ok that only 5,000 City jobs (and bear in mind a lot of these will be very well paid jobs) will be lost, but hey the Brits will get blue passports...

bilston

cournioni wrote: »

I can’t see the nationalist population standing for what they would become, should a hard border come into place.

The problem being some Loyalists won't stand for an Irish Sea border...it's hard to see an easy solution to this.

I think we will see a second referendum...for NI only...stay in the Customs Union have a frictionless border with the Republic and an Irish Sea border with GB, or leave the Customs Union and have a hard border with the Republic. The vote may even take place before the end of the year, as an answer will be needed before Brexit Day in March.

It could be very messy.

Taytoland

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

If only you could post gifs on this forum, the clutching at straws one would be needed for this post. You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

Your failure to counter any argument with facts is noted.

They joined the union in the first place on the basis of threats, promises, bribery, and lies, same as Ireland did in 1800.

It is a fact that an independent Scotland can continue to use the pound for as long as they want. They can transition to the euro at a time of their own choosing.

I am asking for facts to back up that Scotland could keep the pound and join the EU. It simply can't. Any new state which joins the EU and all of it's forms must sign up to the Euro currency. For Scotland to leave the Union and then having to rejoin the EU they would be absolutely expected to sign up to the Euro currency.

bilston

bilston wrote: »

There was a guy on Sky News the other night, a Brexiteer, and he was criticising "Project Fear" for claiming that 10,000 city jobs would be lost in London azs aa result of Brexit. He literally took great delight in stating that only 5,000 jobs would be lost...I mean FFS, how do these chancers get away with comments like that. Now it's ok that only 5,000 City jobs (and bear in mind a lot of these will be very well paid jobs) will be lost, but hey the Brits will get blue passports...

Brexit or no Brexit, many jobs in the financial sector are being lost due to the continued advances in technology and artificial intelligence. More and more jobs are being done by computers these days.

Taytoland

Taytoland wrote: »

You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

Your current "Union" is a paltry 96 years old, from 6 December 1922. Younger than many a granny. If anything, it's well overdue another fundamental change. It's a very strange world where political frameworks which were invented centuries ago - like England's imposed rule on Ireland, her institutionally sectarian monarchy, her unelected House of Lords (and its anti-Catholicism, too) and ruling over people beyond England that you've abused for centuries - are seen as worthy of being kept no matter how much the world changes or how much that framework is today essentially a claim of continuing English dominance in a world where England is now, at very best, a medium-level player in military, political & economic terms. The penny will drop soon enough.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Your failure to counter any argument with facts is noted.

They joined the union in the first place on the basis of threats, promises, bribery, and lies, same as Ireland did in 1800.

It is a fact that an independent Scotland can continue to use the pound for as long as they want. They can transition to the euro at a time of their own choosing.

Usually, when someone accuses a poster of not basing their post on facts, they follow it up with actual facts, not a load of rubbish.

The Scots ( at the third time of asking) wanted a union because they had just ****ed their entire economy on the flawed Darien scheme. There were no lies or threats and the only bribery was to for the English to bail them out of the ****.

Of course the scouts could continue to use sterling if they wanted to, but they would be subject to English monetary policy which may not be in their best interest and would be an odd sort of independence.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

Usually, when someone accuses a poster of not basing their post on facts, they follow it up with actual facts, not a load of rubbish.

The Scots ( at the third time of asking) wanted a union because they had just ****ed their entire economy on the flawed Darien scheme. There were no lies or threats and the only bribery was to for the English to bail them out of the ****.

Of course the scouts could continue to use sterling if they wanted to, but they would be subject to English monetary policy which may not be in their best interest and would be an odd sort of independence.

English monetary policy is very soon gonna get interesting.

Capt'n Midnight

Taytoland wrote: »

The EU is notoriously inflexible. They have clear lines on many issues and rarely if ever budge on them. So absolutely no guarantees on Scotland joining the EU.

Scotland would be a good candidate to join EFTA though. Getting most of the EU benefits while retaining control of food and energy. They could keep using the pound and stay in the CTA. Free movement would be a problem for the English because Scotland woudn't have to join Schengen.

EU is flexible. Northern Ireland can sort of remain in EU the if the UK agree. EU isn't forcing a deal on the UK. The UK is free to pick anything on the menu, just like everyone else had to.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Scotland would be a good candidate to join EFTA though. Getting most of the EU benefits while retaining control of food and energy. They could keep using the pound and stay in the CTA. Free movement would be a problem for the English because Scotland woudn't have to join Schengen.

EU is flexible. Northern Ireland can sort of remain in EU the if the UK agree. EU isn't forcing a deal on the UK. The UK is free to pick anything on the menu, just like everyone else had to.

So Scotland would have to accept English monetary policy with no say and all Eu laws with no say.

Great independence.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

So Scotland would have to accept English monetary policy with no say and all Eu laws with no say.

Great independence.

The delusion of the Brexiteer that the UK is buying independence. The UK has never been 'independent'. Having to ride shotgun for various US admins should tell you that.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The delusion of the Brexiteer that the UK is buying independence. The UK has never been 'independent'. Having to ride shotgun for various US admins should tell you that.

Oh god, who rattled your cage?

What the **** are you on about now?

Capt'n Midnight

Aegir wrote: »

So Scotland would have to accept English monetary policy with no say and all Eu laws with no say.

Great independence.

That's EXACTLY what they have today.


Except in the future they wouldn't have to accept Westminster laws, and could drop Sterling.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

That's EXACTLY what they have today.


Except in the future they wouldn't have to accept Westminster laws, and could drop Sterling.

They just have to accept Brussels ones instead and take the euro.

Capt'n Midnight

steddyeddy wrote: »

A hard Brexit is estimated to cost Britain 10% of its economy. Let's see if the damage to Britain's economy is greater than 350 million a week and then we'll see if it's worth it.

UK tax revenues are already down by £440 million a week due to lost growth.



And Brexit hasn't happened yet.

£350m a week is cheap compared to
In 2015, queues of 4,600 lorries stretched back 30 miles and the daily cost to the UK economy was estimated at £250m.


Big companies in NI need East West trade
SME's rely more on North South.
The really big companies depend on things like EU access too

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

Oh god, who rattled your cage?

What the **** are you on about now?

You did, prattling on about the delusion of independence.

It isn't what Brexiteers think it is.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You did, prattling on about the delusion of independence.

It isn't what Brexiteers think it is.

Nope. Still no idea what you’re on about.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

Nope. Still no idea what you’re on about.

You will when Brexiteers get their 'independence'. :rolleyes:

Atlantic Dawn

Years of war and division and potentially the reunification vote will be brought about simply by the amount of cash in peoples pockets.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You will when Brexiteers get their 'independence'. :rolleyes:

Oh the Irony, when Irish republicans talk about independence as if they are the only people on the planet that crave it, while decrying others that have similar aspirations.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh the Irony, when Irish republicans talk about independence as if they are the only people on the planet that crave it, while decrying others that have similar aspirations.

This republican wants independence from the UK. This republican understands how the world works.
There is no such thing as the 'independence' Brexiteers prattle on about. The era they relish and lament was not an era of UK independence, they were in hock during most of it.
Now they ride shotgun for the nation that saved them from de Germans.

What are they gonna do with the gleaming new aircraft carriers when they become 'independent'? Re-colonise the world?

Folkstonian

Deleted User wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

Your current "Union" is a paltry 96 years old, from 6 December 1922. Younger than many a granny. If anything, it's well overdue another fundamental change. It's a very strange world where political frameworks which were invented centuries ago - like England's imposed rule on Ireland, her institutionally sectarian monarchy, her unelected House of Lords (and its anti-Catholicism, too) and ruling over people beyond England that you've abused for centuries - are seen as worthy of being kept no matter how much the world changes or how much that framework is today essentially a claim of continuing English dominance in a world where England is now, at very best, a medium-level player in military, political & economic terms. The penny will drop soon enough.

Your posts often seem to bristle with a quite aggressive hostility towards England. It’s both disconcerting and intriguing for someone like me who is originally from there but spends lots of time in Ireland nowadays. You should visit some day; you might come to understand the place and the people are, on the whole, perfectly pleasant and largely the same as people from anywhere else.

The fact you seem bitter even about the continued existence of the House of Lords (an institution I think both in theory and in practice has a lot of merit - as demonstrated by how they have tried to inject a sense of reality and practicality into the commons Brexit plans) despite it having literally no effect on you is quite something to witness.

On the point of a potential second Scottish referendum on independence after Brexit, it would strike me that putting a barrier between themselve and England (with whom Scotland do 65% of their trade) would be a destructive and slightly illogical and response to the barriers established between Scotland and the Eu (with whom they do only 15% of their trade - less than a quarter of that they do with England)

Again, like Brexit, Scottish independence seems to me to be a situation where, economically, nobody wins, and I would prefer that neither happened.

But, again like Brexit, it is all about your convictions. And if the Scots believe that true independence from the U.K. is more important than full and frictionless access to that market (I do see the similarities to Brexit) then I might disagree but I won’t be offended by it - I wouldn’t see it as a demonstration of Scottish arrogance or xenophobia vis a vis their relationship with England or anything of that nature