Why the north outside EU changes everything for the island

J Mysterio · 11-08-2018 4:20pm

bilston wrote: »

Very possible, but the spite towards Britain and Unionists displayed by some doesn't engender confidence in me that a United Ireland will work either.

I say that as an anti Brexit 30 something middle class, middle of the road Unionist who dislikes the Orange Order and DUP and is exactly the sort of person you need to target if you want a United Ireland.

I'm not sure what to say to this. If we have a United Ireland, Unionists will just be ordinary citizens like any other. Just with a better standard of living and better prospects, as Brexit Britain implodes.

What kind of assurances do you want? This will soon be a no brainer.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-08-2018 4:22pm

bilston wrote: »

Well I'm afraid with that attitude you don't get your United Ireland because you have lost any moderate Unionists who might be persuaded.

Fcuk 'em tbh. Why should we change a single thing about our country to accommodate them?

J Mysterio · 11-08-2018 4:26pm

Also, thought you lads must be wrong regarding Mary Lou's comments. I just checked and there it is. To say i'm flabbergasted would be an understatement. How ridiculous.

Taytoland · 11-08-2018 4:26pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Very possible, but the spite towards Britain and Unionists displayed by some doesn't engender confidence in me that a United Ireland will work either.

I say that as an anti Brexit 30 something middle class, middle of the road Unionist who dislikes the Orange Order and DUP and is exactly the sort of person you need to target if you want a United Ireland.

I'm not sure what to say to this. If we have a United Ireland, Unionists will just be ordinary citizens like any other. Just with a better standard of living and better prospects, as Brexit Britain implodes.

What kind of assurances do you want? This will soon be a no brainer.

You will have to put us on reconstruction classes.

Sunny Disposition · 11-08-2018 4:27pm

Unionists have badly messed this up, Brexit could be the rock the Northern Irish state perishes on, people will not easily tolerate a hard border in their own country again. It won’t be sustainable in the long term.
When you hear unionists arguing that a 70% majority should be required to change the constitutional status it is game over.
The island’s economy, particularly in the North, will be better off after reunification.
Southern political parties need to stop ignoring partition (in fairness there is a bit more talk about it now) it’s important to show people from a unionist background that they will be equals here and a 32 county state can offer them more opportunities.
I think a lot of people would be happy if the Constitutional status quo remained, but it’s very hard to see that going on for another generation. Northern Ireland never became an integrated society and the demographics have changed too much.
The Republic will need to make adjustments to recognize traditional unionists, flag, anthem etc, these things will have to change unfortunately.

blinding · 11-08-2018 4:27pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

I'm not sure what to say to this. If we have a United Ireland, Unionists will just be ordinary citizens like any other. Just with a better standard of living and better prospects, as Brexit Britain implodes.

What kind of assurances do you want? This will soon be a no brainer.

Ian Og Paisley will have to get everything he wants regardless of how dodgy he is . We might even have to make him King if he says " Make it so "

J Mysterio · 11-08-2018 4:27pm

Taytoland wrote: »

You will have to put us on reconstruction classes.

I don't know what this means.

FrancieBrady · 11-08-2018 4:28pm

bilston wrote: »

I'm not sidestepping anything.

I'm not sure any hypothetical scenario can be described as a fact.

May did a deal that sold unionists out. Fact.

Nothing hypothetical about it

J Mysterio · 11-08-2018 4:30pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Unionists have badly messed this up, Brexit could be the rock the Northern Irish state perishes on, people will not easily tolerate a hard border in their own country again. It won’t be sustainable in the long term.
When you hear unionists arguing that a 70% majority should be required to change the constitutional status it is game over.
The island’s economy, particularly in the North, will be better off after reunification.
Southern political parties need to stop ignoring partition (in fairness there is a bit more talk about it now) it’s important to show people from a unionist background that they will be equals here and a 32 county state can offer them more opportunities.
I think a lot of people would be happy if the Constitutional status quo remained, but it’s very hard to see that going on for another generation. Northern Ireland never became an integrated society and the demographics have changed too much.
The Republic will need to make adjustments to recognize traditional unionists, flag, anthem etc, these things will have to change unfortunately.

I dont see what adjustments need to be made? They continue to wave their flags and bang their drums if they want, even though it seems ridiculous to me that they would want to. Go ahead lads.

J Mysterio · 11-08-2018 4:32pm

blinding wrote: »

Ian Og Paisley will have to get everything he wants regardless of how dodgy he is . We might even have to make him King if he says " Make it so "

Ian Paisley Jr. may not even be an MLS soon, due to his taking bribes from the Sri Lanka governmet.

Taytoland · 11-08-2018 4:33pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

You will have to put us on reconstruction classes.

I don't know what this means.

You will need a reconstruction platform to beat the backwardness out of us.

blinding · 11-08-2018 4:34pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Ian Paisley Jr. may not even be an MLS soon, due to his taking bribes from the Sri Lanka governmet.

I think you mean MP . Surely the good people of North Antrim will send him packing and asking God for forgiveness .

Junkyard Tom · 11-08-2018 4:41pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

things will have to change unfortunately.

By consent. We will not be entertaining Unionist demands, those days are over.

Unionists should be negotiating their place in a future UI now from a position of relative influence rather than waiting until they've lost all goodwill.

FrancieBrady · 11-08-2018 4:46pm

blinding wrote: »

Some Parts are more important than other parts . When it suited Angela she made a decision directly against the wishes of other parts of the Eu . The Germans and the French will do what suits Germany and France most . If you think that the 26 counties on the far side of Britain will be their primary concern then you are deluding yourself .Some Irish people have been wrong about the British Empire ( in believing that Ireland was an integral part of it ) and the Catholic Church ( in thinking that the good of the Irish people was primary in the Catholic church ) . We have been down these roads before and we have been very badly let down by outside institutions .

Brexit will not change our relationships within the EU blinding. Much as you would like it.

The EU has been beneficial for us overall, in a massive way.

Will we experience negative things in the future, of course we will. But ultimately it is where we should be as a progressive, modern society. Not playing battleships with a nation that is devouring itself because it cannot cope with the reality in post empire normality that it is a small cog in a big world.

blinding · 11-08-2018 4:56pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Brexit will not change our relationships within the EU blinding. Much as you would like it.

The EU has been beneficial for us overall, in a massive way.

Will we experience negative things in the future, of course we will. But ultimately it is where we should be as a progressive, modern society. Not playing battleships with a nation that is devouring itself because it cannot cope with the reality in post empire normality that it is a small cog in a big world.

The British People just want to run their own Country .

FrancieBrady · 11-08-2018 4:58pm

blinding wrote: »

The British People just want to run their own Country .

And let them work away at it. But they cannot manage to extract themselves without massively hurting their own country.

So, they will have to do a deal which requires them to accept the terms on offer.

MonkeyTennis · 11-08-2018 5:04pm

It has become very apparant to me that there are a number of right wing folk that have come on to boards in the last month or two. Many posting thousands in a matter of months. Im pretty sure they are not Irish. I have closed them down on serveral occasions using a lil known thing called FACTS.

I encourage my fellow boardsies to do the same.

swampgas · 11-08-2018 5:05pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

I dont see what adjustments need to be made? They continue to wave their flags and bang their drums if they want, even though it seems ridiculous to me that they would want to. Go ahead lads.

Well ... it would be great if a United Ireland could *finally* disentangle religion from education and medicine. Make all schools and hospitals secular.

That would be a good thing in its own right, IMO, and we could get on with it anyhow in the meantime.

blinding · 11-08-2018 5:14pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And let them work away at it. But they cannot manage to extract themselves without massively hurting their own country.

So, they will have to do a deal which requires them to accept the terms on offer.

I hope they get the best deal they can and wish them all the best running their own Country .

Kermit.de.frog · 11-08-2018 5:17pm

blinding wrote: »

I hope they get the best deal they can and wish them all the best running their own Country .

What countries in Europe are not "running their own countries"?

blinding · 11-08-2018 5:22pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What countries in Europe are not "running their own countries"?

The 26 Counties is not running the Health Service and its Housing Policy is non existent . It does not control its currency , borders and Eu laws take Precedence .

Taytoland · 11-08-2018 5:29pm

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

It has become very apparant to me that there are a number of right wing folk that have come on to boards in the last month or two. Many posting thousands in a matter of months. Im pretty sure they are not Irish. I have closed them down on serveral occasions using a lil known thing called FACTS.

I encourage my fellow boardsies to do the same.

What is your point? Are only Irish people allowed to use the forum or something?

Madagascan · 11-08-2018 6:52pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

things will have to change unfortunately.

By consent. We will not be entertaining Unionist demands, those days are over.

Unionists should be negotiating their place in a future UI now from a position of relative influence rather than waiting until they've lost all goodwill.

Has there ever mean much good will?
For example Mary Mc Aleese comparing Unionists to Nazis.

And this hard border nonsense has only been an issue because the Irish Government raised it to cause ****e.
It was never going to happen.

The Rape of Lucretia · 12-08-2018 9:00pm

blinding wrote: »

The British People just want to run their own Country .

But while retaining the advantages of pooling country running with other countries.
How so many people miss the contradiction in what they are asking for is bizarre. And see one part of the UK as just a nuisance in their pursuit of that aim.

FrancieBrady · 12-08-2018 11:13pm

Madagascan wrote: »

Has there ever mean much good will?
For example Mary Mc Aleese comparing Unionists to Nazis.

And this hard border nonsense has only been an issue because the Irish Government raised it to cause ****e.
It was never going to happen.

Of course there is plenty of good will and there always has been. The hand has been out for many years and is only now being taken, still somewhat reluctantly.

If unionists think they can take hate politics into a UI they are sadly mistaken though. They have to leave that in history. It is over.

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-08-2018 12:02am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course there is plenty of good will and there always has been. The hand has been out for many years and is only now being taken, still somewhat reluctantly.

If unionists think they can take hate politics into a UI they are sadly mistaken though. They have to leave that in history. It is over.

Sinn Fein would have to make a dramatic gesture too though - that all SF MPs from the 32 counties would take their seats in Westminster would be a start. And a greater devolution of power to the Dublin parliament from Westminster as a follow up.

FrancieBrady · 13-08-2018 12:04am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Sinn Fein would have to make a dramatic gesture too though - that all SF MPs from the 32 counties would take their seats in Westminster would be a start. And a greater devolution of power to the Dublin parliament from Westminster as a follow up.

A UI would be electing MPs? Say what? :eek:

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-08-2018 12:11am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A UI would be electing MPs? Say what? :eek:

Sure. The 26 joining the commonwealth as a precurser to a UI. Then rejoining, and no border at all on the island, and the damage to social and economic cohesion on the island is minimised. It solves the unsolvable in the Brexit negotiations, and permits a geniune, good for both sides, soft Brexit deal to be agreed. The 26 has moved well on from the England as the bad guy opressor and exploiting empire bully motif, and has to be pragmatic given that some form of Brexit is happening. That it restores a UI, even if not the independent republic (which is only a trimming anyway, and not integral to real life), would be a good thing for everyone. A final solution at last.

FrancieBrady · 13-08-2018 12:15am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Sure. The 26 joining the commonwealth as a precurser to a UI. Then rejoining, and no border at all on the island, and the damage to social and economic cohesion on the island is minimised. It solves the unsolvable in the Brexit negotiations, and permits a geniune, good for both sides, soft Brexit deal to be agreed. The 26 has moved well on from the England as the bad guy opressor and exploiting empire bully motif, and has to be pragmatic given that some form of Brexit is happening. That it restores a UI, even if not the independent republic (which is only a trimming anyway, and not integral to real life), would be a good thing for everyone. A final solution at last.

Ah right. You have started a movement. Good luck with that one.

Junkyard Tom · 13-08-2018 12:27am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

A final solution at last.

We will not be going backwards. We will integrate further in the European project and this will help protect us from our troublesome neighbour.

Ardan101 · 13-08-2018 1:32am

We will always be going backwards, because of a hard truth we never acknowledge. We will not govern ourselves first the Pope now the EU. Lets be honest the Pope faze didn't work out to well for us, unless you are a hypocrite. Speaking of which while I type this in English and finish watching coronation street and chat to my friends over the internet wondering why every advert has to scream 'made in Ireland' (we got an identity crisis or something!). I wish our neighbours all the best and if they need a hand in the future I will be a true christian and provide it.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-08-2018 1:45am

Ardan101 wrote: »

We will always be going backwards, because of a hard truth we never acknowledge. We will not govern ourselves first the Pope now the EU. Lets be honest the Pope faze didn't work out to well for us, unless you are a hypocrite. Speaking of which while I type this in English and finish watching coronation street and chat to my friends over the internet wondering why every advert has to scream 'made in Ireland' (we got an identity crisis or something!). I wish our neighbours all the best and if they need a hand in the future I will be a true christian and provide it.

If you need something to help you with the comedown I know a fella who can sort you out.

Mongfinder General · 13-08-2018 1:51am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Sure. The 26 joining the commonwealth as a precurser to a UI. Then rejoining, and no border at all on the island, and the damage to social and economic cohesion on the island is minimised. It solves the unsolvable in the Brexit negotiations, and permits a geniune, good for both sides, soft Brexit deal to be agreed. The 26 has moved well on from the England as the bad guy opressor and exploiting empire bully motif, and has to be pragmatic given that some form of Brexit is happening. That it restores a UI, even if not the independent republic (which is only a trimming anyway, and not integral to real life), would be a good thing for everyone. A final solution at last.

I’m aware that crack cocaine addiction is an all Island issue. You need to get off crack. That is the only conclusion that I can draw from your post

PeaQueue · 13-08-2018 3:23pm

titan18 wrote: »

bear1 wrote:

Both sides have to agree.

Referendum though or a Dail vote? I'd hope for the first really.

Typical Free State attitude. The thing is it'd not be about the North simply joining the South. It'd be about reimagining Ireland for the future of all it's people across the island. When it does happen (reunification), the change to ireland will be felt across the whole country as it'd completely shake up the Dail and might even shake a few people out of their 'I'm alright Jack' attitude to their fellow countrymen.

Taytoland · 13-08-2018 3:28pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

A final solution at last.

We will not be going backwards. We will integrate further in the European project and this will help protect us from our troublesome neighbour.

While others leave.

Stupify · 13-08-2018 3:54pm

Do any of us even really want a UI at this stage? The north would be a leech on our economy. I actually wouldn't mind a hard border at this stage, it won't hurt us too much in the long run.

PeaQueue · 13-08-2018 4:07pm

Stupify wrote: »

Do any of us even really want a UI at this stage? The north would be a leech on our economy. I actually wouldn't mind a hard border at this stage, it won't hurt us too much in the long run.

"I'm alright Jack"

Stupify · 13-08-2018 4:09pm

PeaQueue wrote: »

"I'm alright Jack"

And why should we not be looking out for ourselves here? It definitely wouldn't be minimal effort on our part to bear the burden of a united Ireland.

PeaQueue · 13-08-2018 4:11pm

Stupify wrote: »

PeaQueue wrote: »

"I'm alright Jack"

And why should we not be looking out for ourselves here?

So just f**k anyone north of the border? You consider yourself Irish?
I suppose it worked for the likes of you in the 20's and again in the 70's.

Stupify · 13-08-2018 4:13pm

PeaQueue wrote: »

So just f**k anyone north of the border? You consider yourself Irish?
I suppose it worked for the likes of you in the 20's and again in the 70's.

Ah yeah I am Irish, does that mean I need to support a United Ireland is it?

PeaQueue · 13-08-2018 4:27pm

Stupify wrote: »

PeaQueue wrote: »

So just f**k anyone north of the border? You consider yourself Irish?
I suppose it worked for the likes of you in the 20's and again in the 70's.

Ah yeah I am Irish, does that mean I need to support a United Ireland is it?

I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part. Maybe you see your self as more 'southern irish' or did you tick 'free stater' in the census form?

Stupify · 13-08-2018 4:34pm

PeaQueue wrote: »

I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part. Maybe you see your self as more 'southern irish' or did you tick 'free stater' in the census form?

I see myself as from the Republic of Ireland and the island of Ireland, that doesn't mean I want a United Ireland though, is there a problem with that?

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-08-2018 6:00pm

PeaQueue wrote: »

I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part.

If so, then is rejoining the UK, as a united ireland, with a devolved local govt in Dublin not the way to make the island one again, and the option that truly is open to Eireans if they a genuinely commited to staying as close to the north, economically and socially, as possible.
The Eu project kept a certain commonality between the two over the last 40 years. The peace process advanced it further. But now Brexit is a serious threat to that. Which no one really foresaw. But given that it has happened, Eire must reassess this rejoining option as the optimum choice in these new circumstances.

droidman123 · 13-08-2018 6:23pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If so, then is rejoining the UK, as a united ireland, with a devolved local govt in Dublin not the way to make the island one again, and the option that truly is open to Eireans if they a genuinely commited to staying as close to the north, economically and socially, as possible.
The Eu project kept a certain commonality between the two over the last 40 years. The peace process advanced it further. But now Brexit is a serious threat to that. Which no one really foresaw. But given that it has happened, Eire must reassess this rejoining option as the optimum choice in these new circumstances.

"Rejoing the uk"? We never actually joined them in the first place,so how could we "rejoin" them?

PeaQueue · 13-08-2018 6:29pm

Stupify wrote: »

PeaQueue wrote: »

I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part. Maybe you see your self as more 'southern irish' or did you tick 'free stater' in the census form?

I see myself as from the Republic of Ireland and the island of Ireland, that doesn't mean I want a United Ireland though, is there a problem with that?

Aye, you're a partitionist the sort that probably turned a blind eye to what was going on up in the north because it didn't affect you. Sure you were ok so the ppl in the north can Fck off. Free stater.

Edgware · 13-08-2018 6:45pm

PeaQueue wrote: »

I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part. Maybe you see your self as more 'southern irish' or did you tick 'free stater' in the census form?

When you roll out the Free Stater label you've lost the argument. The Northerners didn't do too much between the 20s and the 70s to improve their circumstances.
Having said that I dont agree with this idea that the Six Counties would be a burden on the Republic. As long as unification was an agreed act I would be optimistic. However if there was a simmering Civil War between Loyalists and Republicans then millions would go down the tubes in security costs. There is ample potential in agriculture, I.T. Tourism Foreign Investment etc to maintain and improve the all island economy

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-08-2018 6:49pm

PeaQueue wrote: »

Aye, you're a partitionist the sort that probably turned a blind eye to what was going on up in the north because it didn't affect you. Sure you were ok so the ppl in the north can Fck off. Free stater.

There has always been that group. And at the other end of the spectrum, those for whom restoration of a 32 county entity matters and is still unfinished business from 1922.
What has changed with this Brexit rabbit out of the hat for both though, is that now, for the Im all right Jack person, self interest does now lead to maintaining the closest links with the north. And similarly for the most independence motivated person, compromising and having a 32 county Ireland at the price of being part of the UK, now also makes sense.
So for both sides, while it goes against 100 years of received wisdom, dogma, and side choosing, it is, in its core, a very strongly attractive option.

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-08-2018 6:51pm

Edgware wrote: »

When you roll out the Free Stater label you've lost the argument. The Northerners didn't do too much between the 20s and the 70s to improve their circumstances.
Having said that I dont agree with this idea that the Six Counties would be a burden on the Republic. As long as unification was an agreed act I would be optimistic. However if there was a simmering Civil War between Loyalists and Republicans then millions would go down the tubes in security costs. There is ample potential in agriculture, I.T. Tourism Foreign Investment etc to maintain and improve the all island economy

Those downsides only exist in the 6 joining tge 26 option. Not in the 26 joining the 6 and the UK.

zapitastas · 13-08-2018 6:55pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If so, then is rejoining the UK, as a united ireland, with a devolved local govt in Dublin not the way to make the island one again, and the option that truly is open to Eireans if they a genuinely commited to staying as close to the north, economically and socially, as possible.
The Eu project kept a certain commonality between the two over the last 40 years. The peace process advanced it further. But now Brexit is a serious threat to that. Which no one really foresaw. But given that it has happened, Eire must reassess this rejoining option as the optimum choice in these new circumstances.

Nice try mogg

mickoneill31 · 13-08-2018 6:56pm

Stupify wrote: »

I see myself as from the Republic of Ireland and the island of Ireland, that doesn't mean I want a United Ireland though, is there a problem with that?

Id like a united Ireland. But there's a lot of backwards thinking up there, just look at the DUP (and by idiots down here who use the term free stater) so I don't see it being feasible any time soon.

Why the north outside EU changes everything for the island

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