Police shoot disabled man; Sweden

Graces7

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2018/0803/982953-stockholm-sweden-shooting/

the_syco

Man with walking around with a gun at 4am shot by police.

Graces7

the_syco wrote: »

Man with walking around with a gun at 4am shot by police.

there was no gun..not even a realistic replica... do the police not have eyes? Telescopic sights? Poor kid. Not the first time in Sweden .

suicide_circus

hard to tell the difference between a real gun and a toy gun at 4am in fairness

suicide_circus

Graces7 wrote: »

there was no gun..not even a realistic replica... do the police not have eyes? Telescopic sights? Poor kid. Not the first time in Sweden .

of all the problems facing Sweden, the police shooting people with Downs Syndrome is hardly the most prevalent

Welruc

Graces7 wrote: »

there was no gun..not even a realistic replica... do the police not have eyes? Telescopic sights? Poor kid. Not the first time in Sweden .

Was there a pic of the toy posted somewhere?

the_syco

Graces7 wrote: »

there was no gun..not even a realistic replica... do the police not have eyes? Telescopic sights? Poor kid. Not the first time in Sweden .

https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2018/08/03/swedish-police-fatally-shoot-disabled-man-carrying-toy-gun

A later statement said the man was believed to be carrying a replica gun and had been reported missing by family members about an hour after the shooting.

This could be called a toy gun; https://www.justbbguns.ie/product/ha118-spring-bb-pistol/ as it's not a "real" gun.

Graces7

the_syco wrote: »

https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2018/08/03/swedish-police-fatally-shoot-disabled-man-carrying-toy-gun


This could be called a toy gun; https://www.justbbguns.ie/product/ha118-spring-bb-pistol/ as it's not a "real" gun.

That is not the image of any gun he was carrying.

Graces7

Requiescat in pace, little man. And may Light eternal shine on thee and comfort your mother and all who knew and loved you.

Such a sweet face on him

I have asked that this thread please be deleted

Blessings and thanks, mods

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

That is not the image of any gun he was carrying.

How do you know? You saw the gun he was carrying?
It's a terrible incident & I feel for his family & the police that shot him.

JMNolan

Graces7 wrote: »

Requiescat in pace, little man. And may Light eternal shine on thee and comfort your mother and all who knew and loved you.

Such a sweet face on him

I have asked that this thread please be deleted

Blessings and thanks, mods

Why? This isn't the first time a person with a disability has been killed in error by police and it highlights how trigger happy police, why would you want that covered up?

Welruc

Graces7 wrote: »

Requiescat in pace, little man. And may Light eternal shine on thee and comfort your mother and all who knew and loved you.

Such a sweet face on him

I have asked that this thread please be deleted

Blessings and thanks, mods

Why have the thread deleated? Is it because you expected everyone to jump on and start bashing the police?

I feel sorry for the guy who died and his family but i also feel sorry for the police who shot him.

Im pretty sure the decision to shoot was not taken lightly and they would genuinely have believed the gun was real and they were facing a genuine threat.

Graces7

JMNolan wrote: »

Why? This isn't the first time a person with a disability has been killed in error by police and it highlights how trigger happy police, why would you want that covered up?

now you have posted i see hope.. thank you

nb why not use tazers?

Graces7

Welruc wrote: »

Why have the thread deleated? Is it because you expected everyone to jump on and start bashing the police?

I feel sorry for the guy who died and his family but i also feel sorry for the police who shot him.

Im pretty sure the decision to shoot was not taken lightly and they would genuinely have believed the gun was real and they were facing a genuine threat.

No i expected more humanity and yes, criticicism of trigger happy cops.

Pretzeluck

Graces7 wrote: »

No i expected more humanity and yes, criticicism of trigger happy cops.

Oh so it's ok in any other case but when cops shoot an unarmed person, quick delete the thread and censor it. Have you heard a term free speech? I suggest you delete your post.

TheBoyConor

Graces why on earth would you want this thread deleted?

Usual Irish attitude of when something we don't like or can't handle happens the first instinct is to censor it, cover it up, smother it and sweep it under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen.

Child abuse, domestic violence, rape, pedophilia etc and now police shootings.

You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to brush this one under the rug.

McMurphy

4am.

Man with gun in city centre.

Police shoot man.

Transpires man has condition - gun was fake.

Feel sorry for him, but what are the cops meant to do?

baldbear

The moral of the story is don't be giving toy machine guns to people with down syndrome who have a history of running out of the family home.

I feel bad for the cops. It was really dark they saw was a man with a gun & of course thought the worst.

baldbear

The moral of the story is don't be giving toy machine guns to people with down syndrome who have a history of running out of the family home.

I feel bad for the cops. It was really dark they saw was a man with a gun & of course thought the worst.

The parents are the ones who should be blamed here for not securing there house so the poor chap can't leave on his own.

Fr_Dougal

Graces7 wrote: »

now you have posted i see hope.. thank you

nb why not use tazers?

Tasers against someone who they believed had a gun? Nope.

TG1

Graces7 wrote: »

No i expected more humanity and yes, criticicism of trigger happy cops.

I think sometimes people forget that police in any country are just people, forced to make split second decisions every day. They disregard their own safety and put themselves in dangerous situations so the rest of us don't have to. Yes sometimes they make mistakes, and I'm sure there is the odd person who is not a right psychological fit for for a job like that that gets through the screening procedures.

But I highly doubt the unfortunate police officers involved in the above mentioned incident are delighted with what they've done.

This is probably going to affect them for the rest of their lives. A bit of compassion for people going above and beyond on a daily basis when it does go wrong is not a bad thing.

Yes, its a horrible horrible thing to have happened, and yes that poor man's family have suffered such a huge loss, and I feel for them I think we should have a bit of compassion for all involved, and not jump straight to the "trigger happy" comment before any investigation has been done. that in my view is what humanity is about.

Bob Harris

Graces7 wrote: »

now you have posted i see hope.. thank you

nb why not use tazers?

A tazer is effective from about 12-15 feet. A gun somewhat more than that. Be like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

ConnyMcDavid

Bob Harris wrote: »

A tazer is effective from about 12-15 feet. A gun somewhat more than that. Be like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

I would imagine being hit by the tazer could cause a reflex and the trigger of the gun being pulled.

Pretzeluck

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

4am.

Man with gun in city centre.

Police shoot man.

Transpires man has condition - gun was fake.

Feel sorry for him, but what are the cops meant to do?

Agreed, executing him was the right choice. They had no other options. They couldn't have done anything else, we just need to accept that.

friendlyfun

Graces7 wrote: »

there was no gun..not even a realistic replica... do the police not have eyes? Telescopic sights? Poor kid. Not the first time in Sweden .

Why are people blaming the police for this? It can difficult to decipher between a real gun and fake gun from a far. If someone was with him maybe they would have been able to indicate to police that it was dud gun.

Bob Harris

ConnyMcDavid wrote: »

I would imagine being hit by the tazer could cause a reflex and the trigger of the gun being pulled.

I suppose you could imagine that alright....

Bob Harris

Graces7 wrote: »

Requiescat in pace, little man. And may Light eternal shine on thee and comfort your mother and all who knew and loved you.

Such a sweet face on him

I have asked that this thread please be deleted

Blessings and thanks, mods

Wait a minute, you started it!

Pretzeluck

friendlyfun wrote: »

Why are people blaming the police for this? It can difficult to decipher between a real gun and fake gun from a far. If someone was with him maybe they would have been able to indicate to police that it was dud gun.

Agreed, the police did the right thing obviously. Everyone is now safer. 1 innocent life is acceptable if 100 guilty ones are executed.

RobbingBandit

Me luv after hours all the present goings on with none of the relevant context. Ah tea-party

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Iwouldinmesack

How were the the police expected to know that the guy had those disabilities when they were arriving to the scene of reports of a guy with a gun at 4 in the morning? I think its fully justified. Why take a chance. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Das Reich

I think if it was a refugee the police would never shoot him.

SEPT 23 1989

A victim of the times we live in

Omackeral

A horrible set of circumstances that have tragically cost this poor guy his life. It's awful for everyone involved.

Potential-Monke

We don't know exactly what happened so we can't blame anyone yet. But with the evidence we do have (male with mental disorder walking around town at 4am with what looked like a gun) it looks like the cops didn't do anything wrong. We don't know what the interaction was, we don't know what was said, how that man acted if confronted, he could have pretended it was a real gun if he has 'the mentality of a 3 year old' who somehow managed to run away from home quite often. I'll wait for all the facts, but as it is now, we can't say who was right or wrong.

And the best part about these threads are the people who say 'Why not give a warning shot, why not use a taser, why not blah blah blah'. Ye are not cops in a country where getting shot is a possibility. You cannot imagine what that decision is like. Cops don't shoot to kill, they shoot to incapacitate, and if it ends in death so be it. They aim for the largest part of the body, the torso. No, you cannot shoot a gun out of someones hand, no you should not taser someone with a potential loaded firearm (restricts muscles and if the finger is on the trigger it will fire, there are videos out there showing this).

Playing devils advocate, why did the parents allow a man with mental issues and the intellectual capacity of a 3 year old run away? He does this often, so it sounds like the parents let him do it. Same in this country, person runs away for whatever reason, family ring the cops and that's that. Why weren't they out looking for him? Did they give a description, state he had a toy gun, explain to the cops his intellectual capacity, give a photo so it can be put out there. I've no doubt if those cops got a description it may have ended differently.

Gatling

Graces7 wrote: »

there was no gun..not even a realistic replica... do the police not have eyes? Telescopic sights?

Standard beat cops in Sweden and most other countries who have armed police use 9mm -.45 pistols ,
At 4am it's difficult to tell the difference between a toy and a real gun and considering many real pistol can be pretty small and compact it's difficult to distinguish.

If this man was well known to police as having a mental disability and lack of ability to communicate it may have been a different outcome ,I wouldn't blame the parents for allowing him to run away ,he may have the IQ of a three year old but he was an adult there is only so much you could do to stop him , for all we know his parents were asleep in bed when he wandered off

mvl

Wow, this is tough for all parties involved.
While I am not happy to say it, sounds to me for this profile (disabled individual that runs away from home) micro-chipping could have been useful.
- mentioning it in the Swedish context, where thousands are happy inserting microchips into their bodies.

Mrs OBumble

What the hell kind of caregivers allow someone with the mental age of a three-year old to roam around outside at 4am - and give him access to even toy guns.

realitykeeper

Graces7 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2018/0803/982953-stockholm-sweden-shooting/

Sounds like the police were just doing their job. Was the person who gave the imitation firearm to the disabled man behaving responsibly? The police should not have shot to kill, they should have winged him. Lessons to be learned all round.

Potential-Monke

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/man-with-down-syndrome-shot-dead-by-swedish-police

Bit more information. Grainy image of the toy gun. So far, I'm still laying the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the parents. Doesn't matter if he was the nicest person in the world, a report came in of a potential armed male walking the streets at 4am. He was missing for 'hours' at that stage.

I'm gonna wait for the full investigation to be over.

Bob24

Gatling wrote: »

Standard beat cops in Sweden and most other countries who have armed police use 9mm -.45 pistols ,
At 4am it's difficult to tell the difference between a toy and a real gun and considering many real pistol can be pretty small and compact it's difficult to distinguish.

If this man was well known to police as having a mental disability and lack of ability to communicate it may have been a different outcome ,I wouldn't blame the parents for allowing him to run away ,he may have the IQ of a three year old but he was an adult there is only so much you could do to stop him , for all we know his parents were asleep in bed when he wandered off

Not to mention that crime rate and gun homicides have been skyrocketing in Sweden over the past decade. The police there must be especially under pressure when they see what might be an armed killer.

The outcome would possibly have been different 20 years ago when the real possibility of someone being out there to fire a gun and kill wouldn’t have been as present in the policeman’s mind.

Raging_Ninja

Sweden is on heightened alert due to Islamist violence and attacks on police. So far in Sweden this year alone 6 people have been killed by police - this in a country of just under 10 million.

With a little under half the population we've had 1 person killed by the Gardaí and there are years where there are no police-involved shootings.

Potential-Monke

Potential-Monke wrote: »

We don't know exactly what happened so we can't blame anyone yet. But with the evidence we do have (male with mental disorder walking around town at 4am with what looked like a gun) it looks like the cops didn't do anything wrong. We don't know what the interaction was, we don't know what was said, how that man acted if confronted, he could have pretended it was a real gun if he has 'the mentality of a 3 year old' who somehow managed to run away from home quite often. I'll wait for all the facts, but as it is now, we can't say who was right or wrong.

And the best part about these threads are the people who say 'Why not give a warning shot, why not use a taser, why not blah blah blah'. Ye are not cops in a country where getting shot is a possibility. You cannot imagine what that decision is like. Cops don't shoot to kill, they shoot to incapacitate, and if it ends in death so be it. They aim for the largest part of the body, the torso. No, you cannot shoot a gun out of someones hand, no you should not taser someone with a potential loaded firearm (restricts muscles and if the finger is on the trigger it will fire, there are videos out there showing this).

Playing devils advocate, why did the parents allow a man with mental issues and the intellectual capacity of a 3 year old run away? He does this often, so it sounds like the parents let him do it. Same in this country, person runs away for whatever reason, family ring the cops and that's that. Why weren't they out looking for him? Did they give a description, state he had a toy gun, explain to the cops his intellectual capacity, give a photo so it can be put out there. I've no doubt if those cops got a description it may have ended differently.

I can't edit easily on phone so - regarding where to aim - torso is a usa thing, iirc.
I read this a while ago:

https://improvingpolice.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/a-note-from-sweden-on-use-of-force/

Gatling

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

With a little under half the population we've had 1 person killed by the Gardaí and there are years where there are no police-involved shootings.

But compare the fact we've a mostly unarmed police force standard Guard's only carry batons and pepper spray,
Sweden has roughly 22,000 armed officers patrolling the streets ,
If we gave the 12,000 + guards firearms as standard we would be looking at more than 1 shooting every few years

Potential-Monke

bluewolf wrote: »

I can't edit easily on phone so - regarding where to aim - torso is a usa thing, iirc.
I read this a while ago:

https://improvingpolice.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/a-note-from-sweden-on-use-of-force/

It's the main point of aiming here in Ireland and in the UK too. This warning shots, shoot at the legs craic, it's stupid imo. If you need to shoot, it's serious enough to require you to shoot to incapacitate. What happens if you shot the armed man in the leg, he drops and shoots a civilian? Cop would be held responsible for that.

In theory it would be great to shoot the legs, back up, reasses, etc, but again, imo if it warrants a shot being fired to begin with, that shot should be at the largest mass of the suspect to prevent anything further from happening. If a warning shot is something that can be done, then it's not necessary. The only time an Irish Garda or American cop are advised to fire is to prevent a threat to life.

And where do you fire the warning shot? Over their shoulder, into the air, into the ground? Ballistics would show that that bullet could end up anywhere if shot into the ground or air. Shooting over his shoulder, where would that go? It's not safe to fire a warning shot, full stop.

I'm sure Scandinavian countries are trying to be less aggressive that our American counterparts, but gun crime is only starting to become a problem there. Gun crime in America has been around since day dot, so they're not only experiencing it now, they're used to it, it's part of life, and it has shown them that aiming for the largest mass is the best policy to prevent further incidents. I'm sure Sweden and co. will change in the future, but American cops won't ever change to shooting legs or giving warning shots.

Simple line to remember that I mentioned above. If a gun has to be fired, it should be to stop a suspect. Warning shots and shooting limbs should be kept to the movies.

Lash Into The Pints

I feel bad for the guy's parents but this is the New Sweden where the police are on edge due to the high levels of violence they now face.

Signore Fancy Pants

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's the main point of aiming here in Ireland and in the UK too. This warning shots, shoot at the legs craic, it's stupid imo

As you are an ex-AGS member, do armed AGS members not operate degrees of force?

Wanderer2010

TG1 wrote: »

But I highly doubt the unfortunate police officers involved in the above mentioned incident are delighted with what they've done.

This is probably going to affect them for the rest of their lives. A bit of compassion for people going above and beyond on a daily basis when it does go wrong is not a bad thing.
.

Will it though? There have been so many cases of people getting shot by police and all the videos of black lives matter etc that makes me think some of these cops couldn't care less how many people they kill during the day and just go right on with their lives and sleep soundly every night. Now that's terrifying...

Bob24

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

some of these cops couldn't care less how many people they kill during the day and just go right on with their lives and sleep soundly every night. Now that's terrifying...

That’s just paranoid thinking.

Not saying a killer cop can’t exist. But no way it is something common. And it’s probably even less likely in Sweden than in the US.

So yeah most likely that policeman will lice for the rest of their life with this burden on their conscience.

Sin City

F*cking Murican Swedish police

riffmongous

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's the main point of aiming here in Ireland and in the UK too. This warning shots, shoot at the legs craic, it's stupid imo. If you need to shoot, it's serious enough to require you to shoot to incapacitate. What happens if you shot the armed man in the leg, he drops and shoots a civilian? Cop would be held responsible for that.

In theory it would be great to shoot the legs, back up, reasses, etc, but again, imo if it warrants a shot being fired to begin with, that shot should be at the largest mass of the suspect to prevent anything further from happening. If a warning shot is something that can be done, then it's not necessary. The only time an Irish Garda or American cop are advised to fire is to prevent a threat to life.

And where do you fire the warning shot? Over their shoulder, into the air, into the ground? Ballistics would show that that bullet could end up anywhere if shot into the ground or air. Shooting over his shoulder, where would that go? It's not safe to fire a warning shot, full stop.

I'm sure Scandinavian countries are trying to be less aggressive that our American counterparts, but gun crime is only starting to become a problem there. Gun crime in America has been around since day dot, so they're not only experiencing it now, they're used to it, it's part of life, and it has shown them that aiming for the largest mass is the best policy to prevent further incidents. I'm sure Sweden and co. will change in the future, but American cops won't ever change to shooting legs or giving warning shots.

Simple line to remember that I mentioned above. If a gun has to be fired, it should be to stop a suspect. Warning shots and shooting limbs should be kept to the movies.

Pretty sure in Germany they use warning shots, and have a correspondingly low death rate