Police shoot disabled man; Sweden

the_syco

Shooting warning shots may be a good idea when dealing with someone who doesn't have a gun, but if the perp does have a gun, shooting warning shots will make the perp assume that the cops are shooting at them, and return fire.

Irish Guitarist

The story isn't very detailed. Did he point a realistic looking gun at them thinking it was some kind of game? Did they tell him to drop it? Or did they just shoot him without warning?

The man frequently ran off on his own, according to his father Rickard Torell, adding he could not understand why police had shot his son.

Had he reported this to the police? If not how were they expected to know he had Downs syndrome? If the father hadn't reported him missing does that mean someone else phoned the police saying there was a man walking around with a gun?

Gatling

the_syco wrote: »

Shooting warning shots may be a good idea when dealing with someone who doesn't have a gun, but if the perp does have a gun, shooting warning shots will make the perp assume that the cops are shooting at them, and return fire.

Not necessarily true ,but it's pure pure speculation to say firing a warning shot will save lives ,

I know we've had multiple cases here where people with replica guns have threatened to shoot guards (including armed) who have them essentially surrounded them and yet no killings ,
It likely all this crap on social media about how Sweden has deployed the army to the streets because the police cannot do their job safely ,and various claims of the police getting attacked by migrants on a regular basis.
It makes the job a hundred times harder if your on constant edge


I would be interested to see what or who is fanning the flames

the_syco

Gatling wrote: »

I know we've had multiple cases here where people with replica guns have threatened to shoot guards (including armed) who have them essentially surrounded them and yet no killings

I suppose they opened a dialog? The parents of the dead guy mentioned that their son wasn't able to talk much.

Sofiztikated

There's a huge difference in:

Cops landing and saying "Hah, look at the retard with the capgun, watch this!" *Bang*

And

Cops landing to a scene, where an unknown man looks to be armed, doesn't comply with commands (I'm guessing the guy with Downs Syndrome and Autism might not be the best at listening to strangers shouting at him,) and gets shot at for being (unknowingly) a threat.

I'd like to think that the second scene is more likely to be the truth.

Gatling

the_syco wrote: »

I suppose they opened a dialog? The parents of the dead guy mentioned that their son wasn't able to talk much.

Having downs and autism's could have left him non verbal ,and not actually able to communicate with someone who doesn't know what's he's trying to say or do ,
He was probably more or just as scared as the cops called to someone waving / carrying a gun at that time of the morning , possibly add flashing lights and torches and a gang of lads (cops)shouting at him to comply , terrifying situation

The One Doctor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Graces why on earth would you want this thread deleted?

Usual Irish attitude of when something we don't like or can't handle happens the first instinct is to censor it, cover it up, smother it and sweep it under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen.

Child abuse, domestic violence, rape, pedophilia etc and now police shootings.

You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to brush this one under the rug.

That's silly. Deleting the thread is not censorship. A news blackout would be censorship.

Sofiztikated

Gatling wrote: »

Having downs and autism's could have left him non verbal ,and not actually able to communicate with someone who doesn't know what's he's trying to say or do ,
He was probably more or just as scared as the cops called to someone waving / carrying a gun at that time of the morning , possibly add flashing lights and torches and a gang of lads (cops)shouting at him to comply , terrifying situation

Similarly for the cops, even if they copped his conditions, he's still a man with a gun (as far as they knew.) When my 18 year old autistic nephew gets into one of his outbursts, he starts shouting, varying between gibberish (to me) and fairly violent and shocking sayings.

Landing on a scene like that, and with what looked like a gun, even the best will in the world could be tested.

KERSPLAT!

Jaysus.

blanch152

A couple of things are strange here.

(1) If he ran off several times before, why hadn't measures been taken to ensure it wouldn't happen again, especially if he only had a mentality of three?

(2) If someone looks like an adult, did they not think that playing guns was a dangerous pursuit (especially as the only picture we have so far makes it look like a good replica)?

Those are questions for the parents.

For the police, the standard questions about use of force and its appropriateness are there, but the parents appear to have been negligent at best.

thebull85

Graces7 wrote: »

That is totally unjustifed and an apology would be appropriate

When the first few responses came in I was literally sick to my old stomach at them... Knew I could not stay online with the vomiting and feared that the rest would be similar. Rather close the thread than that.

Seeing that beautiful innocent happy face...

No one who knows me knows that I a the last person on this sweet earth to sweep anything under any rug! Quite the opposite and I have literally the scars to prove it. Some very recent. I abbhor that shrugging and walking on by . If you abuse anyone, or any critter in my hearing, watch out. I have been outspoken and more re the child abuse scandals; especially on the catholic Answers forums :eek: I do nto go there any more as they are the three wise monkeys where child abuse is concerned. And that is intolerable.

Just now here still embroiled in the situation re the squatter who left his hens to starve. And yes, many walked on by; they are safe here with me. As many other critters and people have been and will be while there is breath in my body, which, at nearly 80 will thankfully, rejoicingly, not be much longer. If i see or hear of anyone being bullied, if there is any help I can give, I do, eg attending court with them and vouching for them. I know where to get help for most things now. .because yiu cannot do else and live with yoursef.

But reading the first posts here? Just could not take it. Was literally sickened ..I expected better and thankfully that came later I saw when I came in.

But yes, trigger happy cops and that is unacceptable. As the mother pointed out, it was not dark there then. As someone has said, Germany does much better ..

Not acceptable and blame indeed. Which will be glossed over and excused.

Blame in many places; that he was out alone.That some eejit bought him a toy gun.. and why are these not banned world wide? How many more little ones in

the USA have to die or kill their family because guns are left lying around and they think they are toys?

The police are supposed to be trained law keepers, not trained killers.Sweden has a bad ,bad record for this kind of killing . Life it seems is cheap . And no I will not feel sorry for them. They are supposedly professionals.
.
There are no excuses, and the only victim is that sweet faced boy who did no one harm.

So please no accusations at an old one with a weak stomach. Who found the cold heartedness of the early posts ..... words there are none.

So I left it in your safe and caring hands...to throw up in privacy and copiously

And my only response can be.. Requiescat in pace, little one, in Light Eternal..
Requiescat in pace, little one.. Recquiescat in pace.

May the price you paid help prevent some abuse...we will never forget thee

ok i am done. too old and too sick for this. Blessings and peace to all here.

Mind blown...

Graces7

blanch152 wrote: »

A couple of things are strange here.

(1) If he ran off several times before, why hadn't measures been taken to ensure it wouldn't happen again, especially if he only had a mentality of three?

(2) If someone looks like an adult, did they not think that playing guns was a dangerous pursuit (especially as the only picture we have so far makes it look like a good replica)?

Those are questions for the parents.

For the police, the standard questions about use of force and its appropriateness are there, but the parents appear to have been negligent at best.

The parents did not shoot him.

Graces7

thebull85 wrote: »

Mind blown...

Signing out; boards is too much these days...

Omackeral

Graces7 wrote: »

When the first few responses came in I was literally sick to my old stomach at them... Knew I could not stay online with the vomiting and feared that the rest would be similar. Rather close the thread than that.

Just unfollow the thread

lawred2

Graces7 wrote: »

No i expected more humanity and yes, criticicism of trigger happy cops.

Trigger happy cops is quite simply the very last thing that comes to mind when thinking of Sweden.

You seem to want to manufacture some outrage for what is clearly a terrible tragedy for all.

AllForIt

blanch152 wrote: »

A couple of things are strange here.

(1) If he ran off several times before, why hadn't measures been taken to ensure it wouldn't happen again, especially if he only had a mentality of three?

.

And the mother said this:

"How could there not have been an alternative to shooting him dead? Why not a warning shot?," Eric's mother said.

I don't know how she though he would have understood a warning shot when she said he has the mental capacity of a 3 years old. And since he wasn't doing anything wrong what would he do differently even if he understood the warning shot. Very strange thing to say.

vicwatson

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

4am.

Man with gun in city centre.

Police shoot man.

Transpires man has condition - gun was fake.

Feel sorry for him, but what are the cops meant to do?

Shoot in the leg?

blanch152

Graces7 wrote: »

The parents did not shoot him.

Parental responsibility has become a thing of the past. After nearly every tragedy we are faced with parents who lament how could such a thing happen.

When they let their child with the mentality of a three-year old have the ability to leave the house with a replica gun, do they not realise the answer?

I see the same all the time every time an accident happens, and it is always someone else's fault.

If a child has no helmet but comes off a bike, it is never the parents fault.
If a child goes missing in Spain because her parents had no babysitter and left the 3-year old alone, it is never the parents fault.
If a child falls in a swimming pool and had no armbuoys or supervision, it is never the parents fault.

This is our culture now. Blame the police, blame the lifeguard, blame the motorist, but never take responsibility for our own actions. At the same time, children should not be over-protected which is the other curse of our time.

As a parent myself, I have to continuously walk that line, between giving freedom to my children to go out into the world, but ensuring that they have the tools to protect themselves when they do, and making sure that my negligence isn't a factor in what happens afterwards.

Pretzeluck

If this happened in merica then there would be 6 pages of cop bashing but since it is Sweden it seems that the cop suffered worse than the dead victim. Oh what a poor cop, how will he live his life knowingly executing someone innocent. Petty sure he got pleasure from killing.

Killinator

vicwatson wrote: »

Shoot in the leg?

Unfortunately that is not a guarantee that a 'threat' is incapacitated. The cops suspecting the person had a firearm, shooting in the leg means he may drop but could hold onto the weapon and fire back from the ground. The whole point of the training is to incapacitate so the threat cannot return fire, that's why firearms are used as a lethal response to what's seen as a potential lethal threat.

Pretzeluck wrote: »

Petty sure he got pleasure from killing.

Just stop! That's deplorable, you've no grounds for that comment at all!

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

of all the problems facing Sweden, the police shooting people with Downs Syndrome is hardly the most prevalent

Jesus it would be fairly high up my list were I living there! Maybe not the bane of my life in the sense it's not a daily occurrence, but one I'd damn well be demanding answers for.

Omackeral

Pretzeluck wrote: »

If this happened in merica then there would be 6 pages of cop bashing but since it is Sweden it seems that the cop suffered worse than the dead victim. Oh what a poor cop, how will he live his life knowingly executing someone innocent. Petty sure he got pleasure from killing.

I'm 80% sure you reside under a bridge given most of your offerings here but if not... the absolute state of that bolded part. Utter crap.

Manic Moran

Chewbacca wrote: »

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's the main point of aiming here in Ireland and in the UK too. This warning shots, shoot at the legs craic, it's stupid imo

As you are an ex-AGS member, do armed AGS members not operate degrees of force?

Unsure about AGS, but the Irish Army does have an escalation scale. Shout, show, shove, shoot sort of thing. However, the situation determines which part of the scale to go to, skipping straight to shoot is authorized if deemed appropriate.

The note on Swedish use of force linked to is interesting. I also suspect it to be highly idealistic and which are not likely to survive a couple of gunfights, which, face it, Swedish police don’t have a heck of a lot of experience in. And it doesn’t seem to have been followed here anyway. Legs are pretty small targets, even when they are not moving, and not obscured by some form of cover. If the bullets miss the legs, or even if they go through, they are going to go somewhere, ricocheting from the ground. You may recall the death of Kate Steinle in the US, where that is exactly what happened. Woman walking along minding her own business, a round is discharged, ricochets off the ground, and into her.

Warning shots are actively prohibited in most jurisdictions in the US, both for police, military and civilians, the rules of engagement I was under in California were very specific on that. Because the bullet has to go -somewhere-, and the shooter is responsible for that somewhere (“know your target and what lies beyond it” is a rule of firearms safety for a reason), if the trigger is pulled, the only authorized reason is because there is an immediate danger, warranting the use of lethal force. Once the trigger is pulled, you have discharged lethal force. It may be lethal to the target, it may be lethal to someone half a mile away who gets accidentally hit by a warning shot. Since “target” is vastly more preferable to “not the target”, we aim for the most likely place a round will hit and stop.

This, the question is not “should it have been a shoot to wound or a shoot to stop”, the question should be “at the time the trigger was pulled, did the cop have a reasonable believe that there was an immediate threat to himself or others justifying pulling the trigger”

Bob24

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

Jaysus.

Looks like the original post you were replying to is gone ... but for reference and for future readers of the thread, it was a hell of a post!

JMNolan

blanch152 wrote: »

Parental responsibility has become a thing of the past. After nearly every tragedy we are faced with parents who lament how could such a thing happen.

When they let their child with the mentality of a three-year old have the ability to leave the house with a replica gun, do they not realise the answer?

I see the same all the time every time an accident happens, and it is always someone else's fault.

If a child has no helmet but comes off a bike, it is never the parents fault.
If a child goes missing in Spain because her parents had no babysitter and left the 3-year old alone, it is never the parents fault.
If a child falls in a swimming pool and had no armbuoys or supervision, it is never the parents fault.

This is our culture now. Blame the police, blame the lifeguard, blame the motorist, but never take responsibility for our own actions. At the same time, children should not be over-protected which is the other curse of our time.

As a parent myself, I have to continuously walk that line, between giving freedom to my children to go out into the world, but ensuring that they have the tools to protect themselves when they do, and making sure that my negligence isn't a factor in what happens afterwards.

Ah here, it is 100% the fault of the police for shooting dead a person with down syndrome who was of no threat. Clearly either poor training or poor personnel. Or was shooting dead a harmless disabled person the right thing to do?

Cushie Butterfield

JMNolan wrote: »

Ah here, it is 100% the fault of the police for shooting dead a person with down syndrome who was of no threat. Clearly either poor training or poor personnel. Or was shooting dead a harmless disabled person the right thing to do?

How were the police to know he was no threat? They had numerous reports of an armed man wandering the streets at 4am.

I don’t think 100% of blame can be attributed to any one party.

The people who reported him to police must share some blame, as should the parents for not ensuring he couldn’t wander out of their home at 4am (considering he had wandered before), plus supplying him with a toy gun,

It was an unfortunate & tragic incident

I have to say, I'm very conflicted about this case.

On the one hand, police had been aware for some time that this man was missing.
There are certainly questions to be answered about the communication these officers received.

His mother says it was light outside.
That being the case, where police may have mistaken the gun for a real one, someone with downs syndrome is pretty hard to miss, even in poor light.
But we don't know what information the officers involved had, or how far from home he was, or any other possible extenuating circumstances.

We don't know the circumstances in which he left the house.
Fair enough, he shouldn't have been on the streets at 4 am - but anyone who knows someone who has cared for a dementia patient, for example, knows how difficult it is to watch them 24/7 - often without support, or respite.

I don't know what the situation re: support with caring for the disabled is in Sweden - but I'd be very inclined to ask, before I condemned the parents, tbh.

Tldr? We don't have enough information to make anything close to an informed judgement.

the_pen_turner

How close to someone would you have to be to know if someone has a disability. You would have no hope with disabilities that don't show .
I don't think you would know at 60 plus feet .
I actually wouldn't be going any nearer to a potential gun wielding nutcase .

It's a sad situation but the cop did nothing wrong.
Given the facts he had at the time I'm sure he would do the same again. As would most.

What would people be saying if he let him go and it turned out to be a real gun and a nutter. They would blame him

the_pen_turner

the_pen_turner wrote: »

How close to someone would you have to be to know if someone has a disability. You would have no hope with disabilities that don't show .
I don't think you would know at 60 plus feet .
I actually wouldn't be going any nearer to a potential gun wielding nutcase .

It's a sad situation but the cop did nothing wrong.
Given the facts he had at the time I'm sure he would do the same again. As would most.

What would people be saying if he let him go and it turned out to be a real gun and a nutter. They would blame him

We don't know what information the cop had at the time.
We know the victim had been reported as a missing person. We don't know how much information had been relayed to the cop in any detail.

That's the point. There's far too much we don't know.

the_pen_turner

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We don't know what information the cop had at the time.
We know the victim had been reported as a missing person. We don't know how much information had been relayed to the cop in any detail.

That's the point. There's far too much we don't know.

I agree in principal but
I think it's safe to say that the cop didn't have a description of a down syndrome man wearing X and y going around his area with a toy gun. If he had it would be fair to say that things would have ended up diferently

Graces7

Bob24 wrote: »

Looks like the original post you were replying to is gone ... but for reference and for future readers of the thread, it was a hell of a post!

Sorry; so deeply upset.

Here it is...
Nothing has affected me like this since Tuam.

I gather the world-wide reaction is the same as mine and that of others here.
Utter shock, and that it was totally unjustified, wrong and reprehensible .

Originally Posted by Graces7 View Post

That is totally unjustifed and an apology would be appropriate

When the first few responses came in I was literally sick to my old stomach at them... Knew I could not stay online with the vomiting and feared that the rest would be similar. Rather close the thread than that.

Seeing that beautiful innocent happy face...

No one who knows me knows that I a the last person on this sweet earth to sweep anything under any rug! Quite the opposite and I have literally the scars to prove it. Some very recent. I abbhor that shrugging and walking on by . If you abuse anyone, or any critter in my hearing, watch out. I have been outspoken and more re the child abuse scandals; especially on the catholic Answers forums I do nto go there any more as they are the three wise monkeys where child abuse is concerned. And that is intolerable.

Just now here still embroiled in the situation re the squatter who left his hens to starve. And yes, many walked on by; they are safe here with me. As many other critters and people have been and will be while there is breath in my body, which, at nearly 80 will thankfully, rejoicingly, not be much longer. If i see or hear of anyone being bullied, if there is any help I can give, I do, eg attending court with them and vouching for them. I know where to get help for most things now. .because yiu cannot do else and live with yoursef.

But reading the first posts here? Just could not take it. Was literally sickened ..I expected better and thankfully that came later I saw when I came in.

But yes, trigger happy cops and that is unacceptable. As the mother pointed out, it was not dark there then. As someone has said, Germany does much better ..

Not acceptable and blame indeed. Which will be glossed over and excused.

Blame in many places; that he was out alone.That some eejit bought him a toy gun.. and why are these not banned world wide? How many more little ones in

the USA have to die or kill their family because guns are left lying around and they think they are toys?

The police are supposed to be trained law keepers, not trained killers.Sweden has a bad ,bad record for this kind of killing . Life it seems is cheap . And no I will not feel sorry for them. They are supposedly professionals.
.
There are no excuses, and the only victim is that sweet faced boy who did no one harm.

So please no accusations at an old one with a weak stomach. Who found the cold heartedness of the early posts ..... words there are none.

So I left it in your safe and caring hands...to throw up in privacy and copiously

And my only response can be.. Requiescat in pace, little one, in Light Eternal..
Requiescat in pace, little one.. Recquiescat in pace.

May the price you paid help prevent some abuse...we will never forget thee

ok i am done. too old and too sick for this. Blessings and peace to all here.

Grace, without knowing the full facts of what happened, you have made yourself judge & jury against the police.
'trigger happy cops '
Maybe you could keep some compassion for the policeman or woman who shot him. They deserve it too.

ED E

Graces7 wrote: »

nb why not use tazers?

Shows how clueless you are here Graces.


Police either shot because:
A) Shooting people dead is fun
They thought he had a firearm

Assuming the answer is as this is sweden not the USA then lets look at that. Taser somebody with a gun. That's like pissing on a bee hive.

JMNolan

ED E wrote: »

Shows how clueless you are here Graces.


Police either shot because:
A) Shooting people dead is fun
They thought he had a firearm

Assuming the answer is as this is sweden not the USA then lets look at that. Taser somebody with a gun. That's like pissing on a bee hive.

Police in England managed to do it. Special needs man, toy gun, still alive.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1531807/disabled-man-holding-his-favourite-plastic-toy-gun-is-tasered-by-cops-who-mistook-him-for-a-terrorist/

Dohnjoe

JMNolan wrote: »

Police in England managed to do it.

Every situation is different

We don't know all the details and circumstances. If someone is pointing a gun at you, from range - it can be very hard to tell if it's real or not and what the person's mental state is

The whole thing is a tragedy for everyone involved, including the police who had to make a decision

kirving

JMNolan wrote: »

Police in England managed to do it. Special needs man, toy gun, still alive.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1531807/disabled-man-holding-his-favourite-plastic-toy-gun-is-tasered-by-cops-who-mistook-him-for-a-terrorist/

And as a link on the very same page, another UK police officer armed with a Taser was stabbed with a samurai sword. There isn't a tend here.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1461226/watch-the-dramatic-moment-a-taser-wielding-cop-is-stabbed-with-a-samurai-sword-during-a-raid-leaving-his-leg-in-a-bloody-mess/

the_pen_turner

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I agree in principal but
I think it's safe to say that the cop didn't have a description of a down syndrome man wearing X and y going around his area with a toy gun. If he had it would be fair to say that things would have ended up diferently

Maybe. If not, the question is, why not?


It's fairly safe to assume the parents informed the police of his condition when they reported him missing, and gave a description - otherwise, it would have been assumed an adult male was going about his business.


As to the toy gun, we have no information on whether the parents notified police about it, or even if they knew he had the toy gun with him.


Either way, there are to many unknowns to make an informed judgement - but there are most definitely questions that need to be asked....