Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

Shefwedfan

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Your 18 panels system, does it come with an eddi ?

I would doubt it.


They list the entry system and include Eddie
7 panels (2.275kw) and a 2kw inverter with Eddi (smart immersion) = €4,500 + VAT = €5,108 and you can claim €1,400 back from SEAI = €3,708

py

Hi folks, been following this thread for some time. Could someone PM me recommendation(s) for installation of a PV system in Dublin please? I've got some family members looking to pull the trigger on an installation.

KCross

py wrote: »

Hi folks, been following this thread for some time. Could someone PM me recommendation(s) for installation of a PV system in Dublin please? I've got some family members looking to pull the trigger on an installation.

Assuming they want to utilise the grant they need to use SEAI registered installers. They are listed on their website
https://www.seai.ie/grants/home-energy-grants/solar-electricity-grant/

py

KCross wrote: »

Assuming they want to utilise the grant they need to use SEAI registered installers. They are listed on their website
https://www.seai.ie/grants/home-energy-grants/solar-electricity-grant/

They absolutely will need to utilise the grant. Thanks for that. Hopefully the recommendations inbound will also see the installers on the list.

Seanp92

Hi All,

Been reading the thread with interest , I’m looking for some help spec’ing a PV system possibly with battery:

Detached house in Dublin with roof faving SE/NW with 2 adults, consumption is mainly from 4pm onwards and 250w back ground. Looking to try and achieve as little on grid as possible and have hot water for early morning and evenings. Have Smappee energy meter installed so can see average daily usage is 11kwh.

Cheer guys.

Ballylad

wexfordman2 wrote: »

No,

I have the panels installed, waiting for the inverter and battery install etc.

Spoken to them in Friday and they are waiting for a final checklist from seai before installing in the electrical side.

The delay seems to be comming from seai producing a sign off sheet. They priced a friend of mine recently as well and he was told they are waiting in the same thing.

(He actually went for a 10kwh battery I think, and 6kwp solar)

Hi, Can you pm me supplier you went with?, thnks

zdragon

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Can't see it taking 15yrs. If you take even an assumption without pv and just using it as a night save device.

Charge battery overnight, 5kwh at 8c per kwh, is 40c

Discharge during the day, at 18c per kwh, and you save 50c per day, 3.50 per week or 182 euro per year, which is approx 15 year payback.

That's without solar pv being used to charge the battery.

15 year for LiOn batteries , very optimistic .

zdragon

Reading this forum carefully . I still have doubts that solar is worth it.

Here is my situation in numbers:

my annual electricity bill is ~€922 (8.3 kW/day).
Solar system 5kW (quote taken from this thread - €5200 after grants)

My calculations are based on following assumptions

electricity consumption stays flat :8.3 kW/day
electricity price inflation a 3%/year

Breaking point is around 8.5 years

for a 6% inflation the breaking point is 7.5 years


but my calculations are missing the real energy generated by a 5kW system so it could be longer before costs are recovered.

unkel

zdragon wrote: »

Breaking point is around 8.5 years

You wish. That's if all the electricity you use now will be covered by solar. You'd do very well to replace half of what you are using now...

zdragon

unkel wrote: »

You wish. That's if all the electricity you use now will be covered by solar. You'd do very well to replace half of what you are using now...

this calculation is an assumption that I get 60% from solar. but I think 5kw system will give me an average of 30% (here is where I need real data for Ireland)

unkel

You're using 3MWh per year. Your PV will generate 5MWh per year. Problem is that you use a lot of your electricity when your PV is not generating. Meaning most of your generated electricity will be lost and only a part (maybe half if you put a huge effort in) of your current consumption will be covered by PV. And you still have the same fixed electricity costs. So your savings are very optimistically 1500 units * 17c = €250 per year

A (subsidised) battery will alleviate this, but these have even longer pay back times than subsidised PV...

unkel

I hasten to add that I have a large solar thermal setup, my only family car is a full EV and I have just increased my PV setup to a total of almost 4kwp

But we have to be realistic about the figures and not kid ourselves with overly optimistic projections...

zdragon

unkel wrote: »

I hasten to add that I have a large solar thermal setup, my only family car is a full EV and I have just increased my PV setup to a total of almost 4kwp

But we have to be realistic about the figures and not kid ourselves with overly optimistic projections...

would you share the datat?
daily generated and daily consumed?

unkel

What data? Rule of thumb for a 5kwp panel south facing in a decent part of Ireland is that it will generate roughly 5MWh with a daily peak around midday and a yearly peak in the summer

You will have to measure your own consumption data. And make some adjustments for when you can move night time use to daytime use (i.e. put the dishwasher in the middle of the day provided it's not raining / very overcast, etc.)

zdragon

pvoutput org has a lot of interesting real data ,
data below was generated near Liverpool

Lyndale power station 4.000kW Compare: Tips
Date▼ Generated Efficiency Exported Peak Power Peak Time Conditions Temperature
Comments

21/12/11 1.400kWh 0.350kWh/kW 1.400kWh 0.850kW - Mostly Cloudy 0 to 5C
20/12/11 1.200kWh 0.300kWh/kW 1.200kWh 0.850kW - Mostly Cloudy 0 to 6C
19/12/11 0.950kWh 0.238kWh/kW 0.950kWh 0.700kW - Showers 0 to 5C
18/12/11 1.400kWh 0.350kWh/kW 1.400kWh 0.800kW - Fine 0 to 7C
17/12/11 1.400kWh 0.350kWh/kW 1.400kWh 1.200kW - Fine 0 to 8C
16/12/11 1.400kWh 0.350kWh/kW 1.400kWh 0.800kW - Cloudy 0 to 8C
15/12/11 1.400kWh 0.350kWh/kW 1.400kWh 0.900kW - Mostly Cloudy 0 to 6C
14/12/11 1.400kWh 0.350kWh/kW 1.400kWh 0.900kW - Mostly Cloudy 0 to 5C

zdragon

Fotoman 3.995kW Compare: Tips
Year▼
Generated

Efficiency

North Hampshire
4KW system

Exported
FIT Credit Low High Average
Comments
2019 117.472kWh 0.840kWh/kW 117.472kWh 0.146kWh 11.960kWh 3.356kWh Partial Year (35 days)
2018 3.853MWh 2.643kWh/kW 3.853MWh 0.061kWh 29.110kWh 10.556kWh
2017 3.521MWh 2.415kWh/kW 3.521MWh 0.311kWh 27.880kWh 9.647kWh
2016 3.775MWh 2.582kWh/kW 3.775MWh 0.218kWh 27.380kWh 10.314kWh
2015 3.791MWh 2.600kWh/kW 3.791MWh 0.103kWh 29.420kWh 10.386kWh
2014 3.758MWh 2.577kWh/kW 3.758MWh 0.183kWh 28.200kWh 10.295kWh
2013 3.825MWh 2.841kWh/kW 3.825MWh 0.047kWh 29.721kWh 10.480kWh
2012 3.509MWh 2.400kWh/kW 3.509MWh 0.053kWh 28.150kWh 9.587kWh
2011 406.643kWh 1.049kWh/kW 406.643kWh 0.276kWh 17.880kWh 4.192kWh Partial Year (97 days)

zdragon

my power consumption is 3200 kW/ year
so 4kW panels can generate more than I need.

pity all installers are offering 2kW systems without storage , would be the optimal solution for many consumers.

denismc

zdragon wrote: »

would you share the datat?
daily generated and daily consumed?

Some of my figures from last year, the system was installed in April.
My wife is at home fulltime with 2 toddlers and I work shift so we probably get to use more during the day than the average family.

My consumption from the grid hasn't decreased that much as the installation of the panels coincided with the arrival of twins! which increased my consumption quite a bit.

KCross

zdragon wrote: »

my power consumption is 3200 kW/ year
so 4kW panels can generate more than I need.

Your comment that "4kW panels will generate more than I need" gives the impression that you think it will reduce your bills by that same amount.... you realise the majority of it will go unused because you wont be at home utilising 4kW all day long and during the winter it will be generating close to "nothing".


Maybe you do understand that but just want to make sure you do as that comment makes it look like you dont!

niallers1

I have a 4.2kw PV system with 5kwh battery. Since mid september I've only given away 22kwh to the grid for free.
Summer will be difficult to store/use all. Will probably need to heat water with excess.

Even with above setup i'd expect to have to buy about 1000kw/year from the grid.

I'd love to see net metering or a decent feed in tariff .

unkel

niallers1 wrote: »

I have a 4.2kw PV system with 5kwh battery. Since mid september I've only given away 22kwh to the grid for free.

How the hell did you manage to do that, do you have a very high background load or do you reckon the battery evens it all out?

I wouldn't worry about the few hundred kWh you are likely to give away for free. Do not divert, it will only cost you money. If you don't mind me asking, what was your annual consumption in kWh before your system?

I've a 4kwp system up and running since last weekend, next phase for me is maybe a battery...

zdragon

KCross wrote: »

Your comment that "4kW panels will generate more than I need" gives the impression that you think it will reduce your bills by that same amount.... you realise the majority of it will go unused because you wont be at home utilising 4kW all day long and during the winter it will be generating close to "nothing".


Maybe you do understand that but just want to make sure you do as that comment makes it look like you don't!

I don't consider a system without battery. spending couple of thousands just to give away free energy, doesn't make sense at all

unkel

zdragon wrote: »

spending couple of thousands just to give away free energy, doesn't make sense at all

giving away free energy could be cheaper than using a battery

niallers1

unkel wrote: »

How the hell did you manage to do that, do you have a very high background load or do you reckon the battery evens it all out?

I wouldn't worry about the few hundred kWh you are likely to give away for free. Do not divert, it will only cost you money. If you don't mind me asking, what was your annual consumption in kWh before your system?

I've a 4kwp system up and running since last weekend, next phase for me is maybe a battery...

Battery definitely evens out things but in Summer I'll definitely end up giving away a lot of it even with the battery. I don't think I'll buy a diverter. Not sure if it would see the battery as generation and drain it too much. Will just flick on the immersion when I'm home if nothing else is consuming it.

I also put my appliances on delayed start . Washing machine, dryer and dishwasher set to come on at different times helps make the most of the daylight.

My consumption was about 3200kw/year but I have an electric car now and two daughters that will use a lot in the future.

unkel

I will be using pretty much 100% of my PV for the next month or two for my hobby which uses a lot of electricity. Towards the summer I will be phasing this hobby out, so I have a lot of spare capacity.

I work more often than not from home and have an EV. So I'm contemplating a smart EV charger that sends excess production to the car. This would cost me 600 for the charger minus about 200 I'd get for my old charger, so just 400. Diverting to the car is worth 8c/kWh. Diverting to immersion is only worth 4c/kWh, so a poor return (and I already have solar thermal )

Another thing I'm contemplating is an AC side battery, just the smallest unit to take advantage of the 1000 subsidy

wexfordman2

niallers1 wrote: »

Battery definitely evens out things but in Summer I'll definitely end up giving away a lot of it even with the battery. I don't think I'll buy a diverter. Not sure if it would see the battery as generation and drain it too much. Will just flick on the immersion when I'm home if nothing else is consuming it.

I also put my appliances on delayed start . Washing machine, dryer and dishwasher set to come on at different times helps make the most of the daylight.

My consumption was about 3200kw/year but I have an electric car now and two daughters that will use a lot in the future.

Turning the immersion on or off based on your pv producing excess won't be the most effective way if doing it. Say the element in your immersion is 3kw, that means if you are generating 1kw excess, you turn on your immersion, and now you are 2kw down.

My understanding of the way the diverters work, is that they only send to the immersion the excess, so in the scenario above, 1ke excess goes to the element, and you won't be 2kw down .

wexfordman2

unkel wrote: »

I will be using pretty much 100% of my PV for the next month or two for my hobby which uses a lot of electricity. Towards the summer I will be phasing this hobby out, so I have a lot of spare capacity.

I work more often than not from home and have an EV. So I'm contemplating a smart EV charger that sends excess production to the car. This would cost me 600 for the charger minus about 200 I'd get for my old charger, so just 400. Diverting to the car is worth 8c/kWh. Diverting to immersion is only worth 4c/kWh, so a poor return (and I already have solar thermal )

Another thing I'm contemplating is an AC side battery, just the smallest unit to take advantage of the 1000 subsidy

Why is diverting to the immersion only 4c/kwh ?

niallers1

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Turning the immersion on or off based on your pv producing excess won't be the most effective way if doing it. Say the element in your immersion is 3kw, that means if you are generating 1kw excess, you turn on your immersion, and now you are 2kw down.

My understanding of the way the diverters work, is that they only send to the immersion the excess, so in the scenario above, 1ke excess goes to the element, and you won't be 2kw down .

If bright out the panels could generate most of the 3kw needed but even if they didn't the battery would supply the short fall.

unkel

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Why is diverting to the immersion only 4c/kwh ?

Because instead of using the diverter, you can heat your water with an efficient gas or oil boiler (if you have one), which costs about 4c/kWh

In a similar vein, charging your car (or running your dish washer) is worth 8c/kWh because instead of with solar PV, you could charge your car at night at the night rate, which costs 8c/kWh

niallers1

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Why is diverting to the immersion only 4c/kwh ?

That's the price of Gas so you could just heat with gas as that is what you should be comparing with.

unkel

niallers1 wrote: »

If bright out the panels could generate most of the 3kw needed but even if they didn't the battery would supply the short fall.

If the battery is charged. And don't discount the base load of the house that runs in the background. That could also easily be a few hundred watt.

I have a similar issue with my car. As a default it charges at 7.2kW. Which even with the sun blasting down, would cost me more to charge partially from the grid, than it would cost me to charge at the night rate. Pointless. There is a setting in the car that I can charge at medium or at low rates. I have to find out what they are but I believe the low rate is just 6A (so about 1.4kW). That would do nicely on sunny days

niallers1

unkel wrote: »

Because instead of using the diverter, you can heat your water with an efficient gas or oil boiler (if you have one), which costs about 4c/kWh

In a similar vein, charging your car (or running your dish washer) is worth 8c/kWh because instead of with solar PV, you could charge your car at night at the night rate, which costs 8c/kWh

The one thing that makes me disagree with this a bit is in my case I'd have to put a price on sleeping well. Putting on the appliances in my house at night is very noisy. I wouldn't be able to sleep properly.

unkel

Aye that's fair enough. If you never put on your appliances at night even though you do have night rate electricity, then running them on solar PV is worth the full 17c/kWh or so day rate to you

niallers1

unkel wrote: »

Aye that's fair enough. If you never put on your appliances at night even though you do have night rate electricity, then running them on solar PV is worth the full 17c/kWh or so day rate to you

I don't have night rate yet. Luckily I get to charge the car at work but if that changes then I'll have to get it in to charge from home at night.

unkel

Yeah if you rarely charge the car at home and prefer not to switch on hungry appliances at night, there's no point in getting a night meter.

I take it your battery is on the DC side (hybrid solar inverter)? In that case there probably isn't any way to program the inverter to charge the battery up during the cheap night rate anyway?

This is the main reason I want the battery on the AC side. And of course I had no appetite for paying mad money for a hybrid inverter. No PV subsidies yet for this boyo, it had to be mostly DIY and getting parts cheaply here

KCross

zdragon wrote: »

I don't consider a system without battery. spending couple of thousands just to give away free energy, doesn't make sense at all

You'll need to look closely at the math on that.
Battery storage systems, even with the €1k grant, have a long payback time.

A battery storage system requires...
- hybrid inverter... about €800 extra
- labour costs... i was quoted €300 extra in labour/cabling etc to add it
- battery itself - ~€1200+ for the smallest battery - 2kWh
- minus the €1k grant.

Add that up and then figure out what the payback for you would be and you need to be realistic about how often you will have excess to send to the battery as there will be several months where there will be nothing.

A 2kWh battery is tiny really and the warranty on them is about the same timeframe as the payback.

Do your research is all I'd say.

unkel

Agree with your post KCross, but:

KCross wrote: »

- hybrid inverter... about €800 extra

Instead of going battery on the DC side, you can go AC side. Which requires a battery inverter which costs about €300-€400

With the added benefit that you can cycle your battery at night rate every night too. Giving you 365 cycles per year * (17c day rate minus 8c night rate) * 2.4kWh battery capacity for a small batttery, or €80 per year, which might halve your payback time of this €800 system (your figures of 800 + 300 + 1200 -/- 1000) adjusted for the cheaper AC option) from 10 to 5 years

rolion

One reason why will not have a FIT payment is...why to pay the "home supplier" when we can get it for free !??
Forgot to switch on the diverter today... 6KWh went to unkel's favourite battery: grid... hmmm




After reading last few posts,just enabled timer for the spring time ...not too happy to give for free,sorry !

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Agree with your post KCross, but:



Instead of going battery on the DC side, you can go AC side. Which requires a battery inverter which costs about €300-€400

With the added benefit that you can cycle your battery at night rate every night too. Giving you 365 cycles per year * (17c day rate minus 8c night rate) * 2.4kWh battery capacity for a small batttery, or €80 per year, which might halve your payback time of this €800 system (your figures of 800 + 300 + 1200 -/- 1000) adjusted for the cheaper AC option) from 10 to 5 years

We've been here before unkel!

I'm still not convinced Joe public will get the cycles you suggest. If you charge it up at night, will you have it burned off by the time the excess sun appears?

Or will you just have a winter/summer switch to go from AC charging at night during winter to excess sun during summer?

I just think anyone considering it needs to take a critical look at the figures and not convince themselves it will pay for itself according to the sales literature.

If you can make it work, great, go for it.

I remain to be convinced based on the quotes I've got.
I'll take another look at AC connected systems and see if I can convince myself!

unkel

As before, I don't really disagree with any of your points. And it's hard to make the case either way without hard evidence, which is nearly impossible to measure. Unless you spend silly money on being able to measure

KCross wrote: »

If you charge it up at night, will you have it burned off by the time the excess sun appears?

That is a key question. I presume you will, easily enough outside the 3 or so summer months. On the longest day of the year? Maybe. And my presumptions are only based on the smallest battery size

Maybe if we put a timeline on it. Battery fully charged by 01:00. House base load 240W. By 08:00 (even on the longest day there would not have been that much useful PV by then), the baseload has already taken 7*240/2400 = 70% of the full battery charge. By 10:00 or 11:00 except maybe on the very brightest, longest days, you will have cycled your battery in full

Sounds pretty convincing doesn't it?

unkel

rolion wrote: »

Forgot to switch on the diverter today... 6KWh went to unkel's favourite battery: grid... hmmm

Haha, I tolerate excess PV production going into zero emissions vehicles too

I had a look at my inverter at 2:40PM, just over 8kWh generated. My system is 3.8kwp, 75% south and 25% west

None of that gone to the grid, to the immersion or to my EV

rolion

And,as below,that's "bad planning" on using the Sun's PVs.
Good coverage of the daily backgroound consumption but once night settles in, people arriving and using electrical appliances,all goes out of planning.

If we could invent PVs that works at dawn, as well !?
Or,improve the usage but HOW !?

Seanp92

Hi All,

Looking at getting a 4.2kw system installed with 5kw battery but have been told that it’s either battery storage or immersion diverter, you can’t do both together. Is there a way of utilising both and have excess charge batteries and also divert some to immmerion ?

Cheers

rolion

Seanp92 wrote: »

Hi All,

Looking at getting a 4.2kw system installed with 5kw battery but have been told that it’s either battery storage or immersion diverter, you can’t do both together. Is there a way of utilising both and have excess charge batteries and also divert some to immmerion ?

Cheers

Get a 9Kw installed power PV array then it will be enough harvesting work for both battery and diverter.
...or...
get a 30 tubes solar / 300l cylinder and the quoted PV array.

Nice grants for both.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Maybe if we put a timeline on it. Battery fully charged by 01:00. House base load 240W. By 08:00 (even on the longest day there would not have been that much useful PV by then), the baseload has already taken 7*240/2400 = 70% of the full battery charge. By 10:00 or 11:00 except maybe on the very brightest, longest days, you will have cycled your battery in full

Sounds pretty convincing doesn't it?

No, it doesnt!

Unless I've missed your point completely.... In the example you give above all you have done is shifted some of your night rate electricity from one hour to another(or at least for the 70% portion).... no net gain there!

What you need is to have the battery fully charged just as night rate finishes.... THEN start discharging it where you get the benefit of the cost differential between day and night.

The gotcha is that the sun is coming up when the night rate finishes so just as you start to generate free Solar your battery is full to the brim.


Technically you can make a battery pay for itself in reasonable timeframe but it requires micro-managing of when its charging/discharging and micro-managing your usage (turning on appliances when there's excess etc).

Personally I've no interest in a system that requires me to live my life around the system. It has to fit in seamlessly and just work and save me money in a reasonable timeframe.

wexfordman2

Seanp92 wrote: »

Hi All,

Looking at getting a 4.2kw system installed with 5kw battery but have been told that it’s either battery storage or immersion diverter, you can’t do both together. Is there a way of utilising both and have excess charge batteries and also divert some to immmerion ?

Cheers

Mm,

Technically it is possible, and that's what I have been quoted for, albeit with a slightly bigger pv system (6kwp with 5kw inverter and battery etc).

The way I see it, during a good day, if my base load is 400w, I can at times be generating up to 5kw, so 4.5kw there to go to battery charge and immersion diverter. Maybe I am missing something but technically I can see why it can't or shouldn't work, the issue is more around usage etc.

KCross

Seanp92 wrote: »

Hi All,

Looking at getting a 4.2kw system installed with 5kw battery but have been told that it’s either battery storage or immersion diverter, you can’t do both together. Is there a way of utilising both and have excess charge batteries and also divert some to immmerion ?

Cheers

Its really down to the cost of those systems. The hot water diverters tend to be in the order of €500 to get/install.

You'll heat ALOT of hot water for that €500 via gas etc.


Technically you can put up so much Solar PV and batteries and diverters that you can go off-grid... the sticking point in all cases is making it work financially.

wexfordman2

KCross wrote: »

Its really down to the cost of those systems. The hot water diverters tend to be in the order of €500 to get/install.

You'll heat ALOT of hot water for that €500 via gas etc.


Technically you can put up so much Solar PV and batteries and diverters that you can go off-grid... the sticking point in all cases is making it work financially.

So, it's down to whether or not it pays back or not.

It's interesting, when I was getting my quotes, everyone quoted me for a base system of 4kwp, 3.5kw inverter, 5kwh battery and an eddi hot water diverter, so they were all plugging the same configuration pretty much. Payback as you said, is the question.

For me, the payback for the eddi I suppose would be to see how much it cost to heat the hot water with oil v solar, I suppose bearing in mind that the excess solar won't just heat it once during the day, but would keep it topped up as well ?

Ant idea how much the cost if heating a 300l hit water tank with oil is ?

rolion

Just dont get it... help me.

Why not go for a standard quoted PV,with only array and battery !?
Then,apply for solar tubes grant AND the money difference versus bigger array + diverter and makes it more viable so that you have two independent systems !?
There are days when PV barely heats electronics while the solar tubes lifts the bottom sensor temperatures over 20ish.

dathi

wexfordman2 wrote: »

So, it's down to whether or not it pays back
Ant idea how much the cost if heating a 300l hit water tank with oil is ?

ltrs X 4 X temp difference /3412
incoming water 10* heating to 60*
300 X 4 X 50* / 3412 = 17.58 kwh + 10% for losses = 19.3 kwh
there are 10 kwh in 1 liter of oil . so two liters of oil