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Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

1282931333458

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 283 ✭✭pale rider


    unkel wrote: »
    Sounds extremely optimistic if I'm honest. A 4kwp system is producing about 20kWh per day on relatively good days like the last few days

    If you use all of this for daytime consumption (that you could not have used night rate electricity for) and nothing goes to heat your water and nothing goes back to the grid, your saving is 20 kWh * 18c (unit price) = €3.60

    In practice a lot of electricity would have gone to the grid even with a 6kWh battery. And you said you also use immersion? That's only worth 5c (unit price)

    With your system you'd do very well to save €2 per day on a good day

    I’ll look at it again, based on comments it may be optimistic like myself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,741 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Don't want to be a spoil sport and I have 4kwp PV myself, as well as 40 tubes thermal and the family car is an EV. And building a 19kWh home attached battery storage. And it is far from all about money. Yet we have to be realistic with our sums...


  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Coltrane


    pale rider wrote: »
    I’ll look at it again, based on comments it may be optimistic like myself.

    I agree with Unkel that you definitely won’t self-consume 100% of what you produce even with a battery. I recently considered an Enphase battery (4.4kW), until I realised that its max charge/discharge-rate was...500W!

    But I also agree with your optimism. Very few renewables make sense on a classical return-on-investment basis. But they start to if we consider that their use should reduce the future financial costs to us (and everyone else) of cleaning up the damage we’ve done to our environment...your calculated daily savings could be very conservative if we factor some estimate of those costs...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 283 ✭✭pale rider


    Confession time, based on my consumption over the last billing period for electricity plus vat I am saving less than I had thought at just over €3 a day on 80% of days since install, the battery has been charged on these days and on those good days can cover the night time and overnight loads which are small, we also have an iboost diverter that kicks in and out through the afternoon mainly.

    We try and maximise our return by using heavier consuming appliances when we are producing the best from the array, today was poor with just 11% left in the battery at 6.30 pm ish, as it stops contributing at 10% we will use the grid after dark tonight.

    I'm still happy enough to be producing my own lecky and making my little contribution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭gally74


    I'm at 86 % consumption this month....
    436 kw produced so far this month.
    The 2.4 kw battery is adequate for our consumption over night.
    Oil hasn't been switched on once.

    I'm v happy


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭reni10


    unkel wrote: »
    Don't want to be a spoil sport and I have 4kwp PV myself, as well as 40 tubes thermal and the family car is an EV. And building a 19kWh home attached battery storage. And it is far from all about money. Yet we have to be realistic with our sums...

    How are you building the battery yourself?


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭thos


    gally74 wrote: »
    I'm at 86 % consumption this month....
    436 kw produced so far this month.
    The 2.4 kw battery is adequate for our consumption over night.
    Oil hasn't been switched on once.

    I'm v happy

    You got a water diverter or EV?

    I'm at 71% consumption, 514kwh generated from 5.2kw array / 5.2kwh battery.
    EV using it's fair share overnight, have Zappi but car is home more in the morning when battery is prioritised and then less so in the afternoon after the battery is full, need to think about this
    No water diverter until I figure out a heat pump solution.
    Otherwise I'm tempted to shift some panels to West facing and keep my generation going more into the evening when consumption increases and can make better use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27 eamon_l


    thos wrote: »
    Have my solar install in place for 2 weeks now. 16 panel 5.2kw array facing south, 5.2kw DC battery.
    28kwh generated yesterday, but 16kwh exported. The battery was charged by 11am.
    Zappi just installed and first time getting it on Eco+ today, so that is currently consuming 3.6kw, which is awesome to see. Export Margin set at 100w to avoid it using the battery, seems to be working well so far. Myenergi Hub on the way also so I can use the app to monitor the Zappi.

    Talking to Daikin about my heat pump and how to get that working with the solar, so will keep looking at that. Needs a LAN Adapter and a meter, and should do it's own EDDI-like dynamic consumption. If anyone has worked with that setup, I'd love to hear from them!

    It's been interesting getting my head around the battery maxing out at 2.4kw charge rate, so having surplus even when battery is not yet charged. But also trying to factor the Zappi in, on the basis that it needs >1.4kw to get started.
    The car is around a good bit during the day, so hoping to use Eco+ during the day, and then the Smart boost at night. The battery is not getting me through the night anyway, so at the moment I don't mind if the last of the battery is getting dumped into the car, it would get consumed over the night rate anyway. Will need to re-think that in the darker months when I'll be looking at charging the battery from the AC overnight.

    Picked up a Smappee on eBay so hopefully that will replace my Efergy and help me identify specific devices/appliances, but I also want to split out EV charging costs and Heat Pump usage from general household usage (my brain still see's these as separate budgets) so hopefully it will help me do that.
    I am looking at a purchasing circa 4kW PV array with battery on a 3 bed dormer. No EV yet but will consider inside 5 years. I'm also considering an air-to-water heat pump and would obviously want all working seamlessly together to minimise my electricity bills. The house is on an east/west axis and I am building a kitchen extension that will facilitate 4 panels facing south.

    Any advice of interoperability and sizing would be greatly received.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭gally74


    thos wrote: »
    You got a water diverter or EV?

    I'm at 71% consumption, 514kwh generated from 5.2kw array / 5.2kwh battery.
    EV using it's fair share overnight, have Zappi but car is home more in the morning when battery is prioritised and then less so in the afternoon after the battery is full, need to think about this
    No water diverter until I figure out a heat pump solution.
    Otherwise I'm tempted to shift some panels to West facing and keep my generation going more into the evening when consumption increases and can make better use.

    Yes I'm using the eddie for water. I expect to rise to 100 percent usage as the months pass as the only losses to the grid are on very sunny days .


  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Coltrane


    gally74 wrote: »
    Yes I'm using the eddie for water. I expect to rise to 100 percent usage as the months pass as the only losses to the grid are on very sunny days .

    I was at between 85-95% self-consumption over last year’s late autumn-winter months. (5kW east-west PV, Zappi and HP with UFH).

    I don’t mind exporting for free as I see it as a contribution. FIT is a nice idea and fair in principle but we should consider that the costs of it (in other markets its costs were recovered by a kind of levy paid by all users) could be unfairly shouldered by those who are less able to afford PV. Kinda like the grants for EVs:)

    I’m torn between my inner treehugger/geek who’d love a battery and pragmatic voices who say their cost/kWh are senselessly high especially when the coming FIT is factored, and that they have a dirty footprint of their own. Even if the pragmatist prevails that would only be for say 3-5 years until V2H. For now spending the battery money instead on more PV or (seems unviable in town) a small wind turbine might be a nice compromise, especially if the planning restrictions are relaxed.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭CiaranIRE


    I recently had a system installed and was looking for advice.

    I've used the same company as a lot of other people on this thread and I've had a very bad experience with them(like other people on this thread!). I've been reluctant up to now to mention anything publicly, especially since they still haven't submitted my SEAI forms 6 weeks later.

    I was invoiced for a 2.8kw battery and in nontechnical terms was told the DOD was 96%(I didn't believe this and assumed 80% anyway). The battery was faulty despite them not really admitting it. Each charge reduced the capacity of the battery by 10-15% until it held 100w. They reset it remotely, rinse and repeat.

    They replaced the battery after 4 weeks. I've since realised they replaced it with a 2.6kw battery, and while the battery seems consistent, it only takes around a 1.8kw charge(69% DOD, 64% of what I was invoiced for). The battery does state 80% DOD on the side.

    I'm running on mains by 10-11pm every night. Even adding a second battery(which I assume would need to be an identical 2.6kw battery) would probably still not see me through the night.

    Although I had originally planned on it, I'm not sure I'd even want a second battery from the same company at this point, but I'm getting no benefit from the system. Consuming maybe 3-4kw a day, exporting the rest and buying another 2-3 units every day.

    Would anyone have any advice? Would this performance seem inline with what would be expected?

    Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    CiaranIRE wrote: »
    I recently had a system installed and was looking for advice.

    I've used the same company as a lot of other people on this thread and I've had a very bad experience with them(like other people on this thread!). I've been reluctant up to now to mention anything publicly, especially since they still haven't submitted my SEAI forms 6 weeks later.

    I was invoiced for a 2.8kw battery and in nontechnical terms was told the DOD was 96%(I didn't believe this and assumed 80% anyway). The battery was faulty despite them not really admitting it. Each charge reduced the capacity of the battery by 10-15% until it held 100w. They reset it remotely, rinse and repeat.

    They replaced the battery after 4 weeks. I've since realised they replaced it with a 2.6kw battery, and while the battery seems consistent, it only takes around a 1.8kw charge(69% DOD, 64% of what I was invoiced for). The battery does state 80% DOD on the side.

    I'm running on mains by 10-11pm every night. Even adding a second battery(which I assume would need to be an identical 2.6kw battery) would probably still not see me through the night.

    Although I had originally planned on it, I'm not sure I'd even want a second battery from the same company at this point, but I'm getting no benefit from the system. Consuming maybe 3-4kw a day, exporting the rest and buying another 2-3 units every day.

    Would anyone have any advice? Would this performance seem inline with what would be expected?

    Thanks

    What make of inverter and battery do you have, and what is your sytem spec.

    The battery does not/should not fully discharge, and typically the usable capacity is 90% as the battery will discharge to 10% of capacity. So a 4kwh battery with 90% discharge will give you 3.6kwh of usable storage if it is restricted to 90% discharge.

    My system allows a discharge to 4% so, a 5kwh capacity gives approx 4.8kwh of usable capacity.

    With regards the battery lasting you overnight, it depends on a number of factors, but typcialy for me, my battery would last till midnight, but it would not be unusual for it to be discharged at 10pm, but I have also seen it last overnight, right through to the morning, again, that depends entirely on your usage that day, as well as your generation.

    If for example, we cook late in the evening using the oven, that drains the battery significantly, and I would not expect any/much charge to remain at midnight.

    Also, its not simply a case of you haveing say 5kwh of capacity, and expecting that to be used 100% of the time, as batteries systems also have a max discharge rate, again, mine I think is around 2.5kw. So even if I have 5kwh of storage, if I am using 3KW of power at any moment, then, the battery can only provide me with 2.5kw of that power, and the rest will come from current solar generation (if it is still generating), or from the grid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭CiaranIRE


    What make of inverter and battery do you have, and what is your sytem spec.

    Thanks for the reply,

    I have 3.25kw system. Inverter and battery are both GivEnergy. Max discharge on the battery is 1.3kw.

    I understand I could use the battery up cooking etc, but it's the capacity I'm more concerned about.

    I was told the battery will discharge to 4%. The software 'confirms' the 4%, but I know that's not true. The manufacturer told me the battery keeps a 10% charge. The sticker on the side says DOD of 80%. I can generate spreadsheets of the system performance and I can see how much of a discharge/recharge the battery is taking and it's always between 1600w and 1800w. They rounded the figures up on the software so it always said 2kw throughput after a full charge, but they updated the software today to have decimals and it now confirms the 1.80kw.

    So I paid for a 2.8kw battery

    2800 -4%(sales guy figure) = 2688w
    2800 -10%(manufacturers figure) = 2520w
    2800 -20%(battery spec figure) = 2240w

    They replaced it with a 2.6kw battery without telling me

    2600 -4% = 2496w
    2600 -10% = 2340w
    2600 -20% = 2080w

    Would 1.8kw capacity not appear to be far below what would be acceptable?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    CiaranIRE wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply,

    I have 3.25kw system. Inverter and battery are both GivEnergy. Max discharge on the battery is 1.3kw.

    I understand I could use the battery up cooking etc, but it's the capacity I'm more concerned about.

    I was told the battery will discharge to 4%. The software 'confirms' the 4%, but I know that's not true. The manufacturer told me the battery keeps a 10% charge. The sticker on the side says DOD of 80%. I can generate spreadsheets of the system performance and I can see how much of a discharge/recharge the battery is taking and it's always between 1600w and 1800w. They rounded the figures up on the software so it always said 2kw throughput after a full charge, but they updated the software today to have decimals and it now confirms the 1.80kw.

    So I paid for a 2.8kw battery

    2800 -4%(sales guy figure) = 2688w
    2800 -10%(manufacturers figure) = 2520w
    2800 -20%(battery spec figure) = 2240w

    They replaced it with a 2.6kw battery without telling me

    2600 -4% = 2496w
    2600 -10% = 2340w
    2600 -20% = 2080w

    Would 1.8kw capacity not appear to be far below what would be acceptable?

    Ok, so I have the same HW, albeit larger capacity. My battery is 5kwh, and is speced to discharge up to 2.5kw instantanious. My battery system is a single 5kwh batter, but I beleive this could also be provided via 2 x 2.5kwh batteries. My understanding is that in either case, with 1 larger or, 2 smaller battery, the max discharge is 2.5kw, and I see this, both when looking at the charge or the discharge graphs, I regularly see 2.5kw instances.

    My system is configured to discharge to 4%, and this is what I see. The figures and graphs I have seem to add up, I dont see anything that would cause me to think I am not getting those power levels in real life.

    Where are you getting your specs from ?

    http://www.givenergy.co.uk/images/GE-A5-V1.4%20PF.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭CiaranIRE


    Where are you getting your specs from ?

    http://www.givenergy.co.uk/images/GE-A5-V1.4%20PF.pdf

    I'm getting them from the sticker on the side of the battery, but it's the same 2.6kw battery in the PDF (page 16/17). It's doesn't say the Depth of Discharge, but on the battery it says 80%.

    I've attached a photo from the GivEnergy portal which shows 1.8kw for today.

    But if you want to check the performance, go to System > Actions > View > System Data

    Pick a day you had a clean 100% charge(or discharge) and click export data.

    In the spreadsheet, find when your battery was at 3% or 4% in the Bat_Percent(%)
    column, Bat_Power(W) should be 0, then select all the values under Bat_Power(W) until Bat_Percent(%) got to 100% again and Bat_Power(W) returns to 0.

    Add all the value in that column and divide the result by 12(each line represents a 5 minute interval).

    The result should be in and around the current usable capacity.

    I know the portal shows 4% as the max discharge, but that's just a front end displaying an API. The figures are likely adjusted.

    I suppose a similar way is just to cook a roast dinner and see how long it takes the battery to discharge at maximum discharge rate.

    EDIT: I've checked again and the throughput looks like it's counting the discharge from after midnight last night. The actual charge looks closer to 1.4kw. The battery charged 51% in 40 mins today @ avg 1.2kw. I'll test the battery cooking dinner tonight. I would expect to see the battery drain from 100% to 0% in 1 hour whereas a 2.6kw battery drained at a max 1.3kw an hour should give 1hour 50mins taking the DOD into account.


  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭CiaranIRE


    Battery discharged in 60 minutes last night and wasn't even running at a consistent 1.3kw.

    Battery charged today from 4% to 100% with a throughput of 1.4kw. So replacing the battery hasn't fixed the problem. There must be something else wrong with the installation.

    I'll get back onto them again on Tuesday.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,460 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Right, feck it.

    I had nearly given up on solar for the near future but living in the sticks and enduring frequent power cuts is becoming a pain in the hole.

    Had to jump the wall and spend a tenner on a taxi to get to work this morning because the power went down and I was trapped by the electric gates. (I know there is a manual override system but I couldn't find the keys).

    I was close to proceeding before on a system with battery but went off the installer because he was BS-ing me about the issues with Zappi car chargers and AC/DC batteries. Zappi manufacturers themselves told me there would be issues, he insisted there wouldn't.

    Any companies that cover the North West that people here have used?

    Previous quote was for a 4kw system, 4.8kWh battery, swanky German "glass on glass" panels, €8k after grant. That also included a Zappi charger install.

    The high price was due to the panels, they were guaranteed for 30 years at 87% minimum. The standard panels are 25 years guarantee to 80%.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    What you need is a little diesel gennie Dr Phil, boss.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Water John wrote: »
    What you need is a little diesel gennie Dr Phil, boss.

    +1

    Phil, your frustration appears to be power cuts, Solar PV won’t solve that for you unless you get a powerwall (€7k!!!).

    A small generator and wire it to your consumer unit with a changeover switch and it will give you basic lights, internet, TV and running water. It won’t heat water or cook dinners but it will be enough to get you over the hump.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It was a a bit of a joke but yeah. You can get a propane one from the UK or pay twice the price here for it. Brigg and Stratton, 6/8Kw £2.5k ex Vat. Cuts in automatically.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,460 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    KCross wrote: »
    +1

    Phil, your frustration appears to be power cuts, Solar PV won’t solve that for you unless you get a powerwall (€7k!!!).

    So that's another thing the installer was lying about? He said that in the event of a power cut, the house could run off the battery short term.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    So that's another thing the installer was lying about? He said that in the event of a power cut, the house could run off the battery short term.

    Maybe not lying, it probably would, but the key word is “short” term. A 2-4kWh battery won’t see you for long and what about if the power cut comes at night when the battery is already dead! ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Water John wrote: »
    It was a a bit of a joke but yeah. You can get a propane one from the UK or pay twice the price here for it. Brigg and Stratton, 6/8Kw £2.5k ex Vat. Cuts in automatically.

    I wouldn’t go that far, that’s big money. Something small for <€1k that you pull out of the shed as required, plug it in, flick the changeover switch and you’re up and running in 5mins.

    As a rural dweller myself a power cut is a bigger deal for us than urban folks as we also lose our water for toilets etc during a power cut. After Ophelia I said never again am I getting caught with that scenario. Generator now on standby!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Kcross, a good salesman starts with the high priced item, what the customer will actually buy will then seem very cheap in comparison. €1K is nothing and the occasional buyer will go for the deluxe model. That's why a menu has the dearest option at the top.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,460 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    KCross wrote: »
    Maybe not lying, it probably would, but the key word is “short” term. A 2-4kWh battery won’t see you for long and what about if the power cut comes at night when the battery is already dead! ;)

    To be honest the power cuts are rarely more than a few hours. It's the frequency of them that's a pain. Probably 3 or 4 a week where it just drops and comes back on in a few minutes, enough to knock out all the clocks on the oven, microwave etc.

    Maybe 1-2 times a month we get blacked out for a few hours.

    The kicker today was that it went down at half 6, we leave for work at quarter to 8, but we couldn't open the bloody gates.

    It came back in at half 9.

    Would the battery in a solar system be able to cover us for that length of time?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    To be honest the power cuts are rarely more than a few hours. It's the frequency of them that's a pain. Probably 3 or 4 a week where it just drops and comes back on in a few minutes, enough to knock out all the clocks on the oven, microwave etc.

    That’s shocking. You need to start complaining to Eirgrid about that.


    And your example this morning proves my point about the battery not helping you because it would still have been dead this morning when your power went out unless it was a 14kWh powerwall for €7k!


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭thos


    I wired up the ‘Essential Load’ circuit off my battery the other night when we had a power cut, and it wasn’t up to much. I tried my water pump, no joy, and it couldn’t handle the fridge freezer either.

    Pulled out the 6kva genny on extension lead, so just need to get changeover switch installed.

    Does anyone know if a grid-tie solar system will work off/with a generator? Does it qualify as a grid?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,460 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Surely the battery could be programmed to hold on to a minimum level of discharge, to be overridden only in an emergency?

    It's one thing spending €5-6k that I had planned to spend at some stage anyway, a whole other issue spending €1k on a generator that I didn't plan on buying, all to overcome something that has happened once in 8 years (not the power cut, but actually being stuck inside the gate).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Surely the battery could be programmed to hold on to a minimum level of discharge, to be overridden only in an emergency?

    You can program it all you like but power cuts are random so you will only end up compromising your battery system by having it charged all the time and then not being able to take the excess Solar when it’s available during the day because you’ve it fully charged in anticipation of a power cut.... again, unless it’s a powerwall that has loads of spare capacity, 2-4kWh is tiny really and won’t cover much.

    Solar PV is not going to solve your power cut problem.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    DrPhilG wrote: »

    It's one thing spending €5-6k that I had planned to spend at some stage anyway, a whole other issue spending €1k on a generator that I didn't plan on buying, all to overcome something that has happened once in 8 years (not the power cut, but actually being stuck inside the gate).

    Better find the keys for the manual override on the gates so! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,460 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    KCross wrote: »
    Better find the keys for the manual override on the gates so! :)

    I did find them eventually, still couldn't open the gates. Not sure if it was just siezed shut after 7 years or if I needed to be more ignorant with the pressure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,741 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Installer could very well be right in saying the Zappi is fine with the battery. Anyway it's his problem to make it work if there are issues. The only snake oil I smell here is the upselling of the more expensive panels. It will add years to your pay back period and the only difference is that the installer gets a much nicer margin :p

    A battery is going to run out in the evening so would not have sorted your issue. Unless you get a bigger battery. Not necessarily a €7000 power wall though. An alternative solution is to get the battery installed (preferably as cheaply as possible, I would go 2.4kWh), sell the battery. Then get your hands on second hand lead acid. For what the 2.4kWh lithium will sell for you could buy about 20kWh lead acid. That should see you through the night on most nights, and not only that, you can charge it up with night rate electricity so you always have some juice left. And a powercut will never again affect you. Don't charge your car up from the battery though. And I would go for 6kwp instead of 4kwp if you have the space.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,460 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    unkel wrote: »
    Installer could very well be right in saying the Zappi is fine with the battery. Anyway it's his problem to make it work if there are issues. The only snake oil I smell here is the upselling of the more expensive panels. It will add years to your pay back period and the only difference is that the installer gets a much nicer margin :p

    A battery is going to run out in the evening so would not have sorted your issue. Unless you get a bigger battery. Not necessarily a €7000 power wall though. An alternative solution is to get the battery installed (preferably as cheaply as possible, I would go 2.4kWh), sell the battery. Then get your hands on second hand lead acid. For what the 2.4kWh lithium will sell for you could buy about 20kWh lead acid. That should see you through the night on most nights, and not only that, you can charge it up with night rate electricity so you always have some juice left. And a powercut will never again affect you. Don't charge your car up from the battery though. And I would go for 6kwp instead of 4kwp if you have the space.

    But won't the battery charge up on night rate electricity, so the most filled it would be is first thing in the morning?

    I can just about fit 4kw on the south facing garage roof. Not sure there would be much benefit adding more on N, E, W facing


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Would it be empty again by 11/12 o'clock for PV?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Depend in the time of year. During summer months, charge form Pv, with no night time charging, as the days get shorter, night time charging would be worth using.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,741 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Depend in the time of year. During summer months, charge form Pv, with no night time charging, as the days get shorter, night time charging would be worth using.

    +1

    And in Phil's case a little bit of night time charging in summer to make sure he has some base power when the grid gets down.
    DrPhilG wrote: »
    I can just about fit 4kw on the south facing garage roof. Not sure there would be much benefit adding more on N, E, W facing


    Absolutely much benefit as the extra cost of 2kwp is very low, about a grand installed. And W facing would still give you a lot of direct drive from PV in the early evening that would have otherwise come out of your battery.

    Out of interest, what was your quote for above system with the cheaper panels?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,460 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    unkel wrote: »
    Absolutely much benefit as the extra cost of 2kwp is very low, about a grand installed. And W facing would still give you a lot of direct drive from PV in the early evening that would have otherwise come out of your battery.

    Out of interest, what was your quote for above system with the cheaper panels?

    Problem is the garage has the south and north faces. Would have to go to the house for west facing. Wouldn't that be an issue, 2 separate installations on 2 separate buildings?

    Can't honestly remember how much the cheaper panel quote was, I'll have to dig through some emails.

    Edit - €6k with Peimar panels.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    I remember getting a quite fir a 4kwp system using those glass glass panels as well, and the pitch being that they had less degradation.

    I think the cost of those panels compared to ordinary ones was about 1500 ?

    I ended up going to a different provider with a 6kwp system, which cost about 1k extra over the 4kwp system. My justification was, more production, and as well as that, 6kwp degradation v 4kwp degradation over 30 years, I would still have more capacity than the 4kwp glass glass system.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    pale rider wrote: »
    I've done my math based on my usage cost from bills versus no grid use and monitoring the meter, I added vat/carbon tax to unit costs not purchased to arrive at my average daily savings, weather has been good for all but one or two days since install.

    Can you post some figures. I think your savings are incorrect.
    Even a 10 kWh battery only costs €1.80 to fill at full day rate and that would be more that what you’d use.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,741 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Problem is the garage has the south and north faces. Would have to go to the house for west facing. Wouldn't that be an issue, 2 separate installations on 2 separate buildings?

    No problem at all. Unless the buildings are very far apart the losses through the cables will be small. My own setup is 5 panels on high south facing roof, 5 panels on south facing kitchen extension and 3 panels on west facing shed.
    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Edit - €6k with Peimar panels.

    Including the Zappi and immersion diverter I presume? That's probably one of the better quotes in here if my memory serves me well.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,460 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    unkel wrote: »
    No problem at all. Unless the buildings are very far apart the losses through the cables will be small. My own setup is 5 panels on high south facing roof, 5 panels on south facing kitchen extension and 3 panels on west facing shed.



    Including the Zappi and immersion diverter I presume? That's probably one of the better quotes in here if my memory serves me well.

    That Solarwatt panels €8100 quote was including the Zappi (new model) install, but not minus the charger grant. Installer was claiming the solar grant back directly, but I had to do the Zappi one myself.

    So net cost for 4kw + 4.8kwh + Zappi 2 +Eddi & Harvi is €7.5k.

    Or just under €5.5k with the Peimar panels.

    Regarding buildings, the house with the E/W faces is about 25m from the garage with the N/S.

    But to add panels on the house, I would need to run overhead cables to the garage to link into the main system? That's not an option.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    unkel wrote: »
    Absolutely much benefit as the extra cost of 2kwp is very low, about a grand installed.

    I'm very interested to see your figures on this claim as I've seen you post similar before.

    Taking prices from Solartricity which to my knowledge is the cheapest supplier in Ireland that actually publishes prices:

    Amerisolar 300W - Black € 102.50 X 7 = €717.50
    K2 Solid rail ultralight 32 2.1m € 7.91 X 8 = €63.28
    K2 End Clamp €2.09 X 4 = €8.36
    K2 Mid Clamp €2.09 X 12 = €25.08
    K2 Roof Fastner for flat tile, 15cm h33 m10 A2 K1000074 € 7.67 X 16 = €122.72
    K2 T-Bolt M10x30 A2 K1000042 € 0.30 X 16 = €4.80
    K2 T-Bolt M10x30 A2 K1000041 € 0.30 = €4.80
    K2 Self Drilling Wood screw K1000642 € 0.21 X 32 = €6.72

    PC sum for PV cable, roof entry flashing, MC4 connectors, trunking, DC & AC Isolators, mounting board, cable clips, sealants, consumables = €100

    Total cost €1053.26 + VAT @23% = €1295.51

    This assumes the most straightforward possible installation (single row) on a tiled roof. It excludes the additional cost of a larger inverter, scaffolding and anything other than short, very straightforward cable runs, access and no allowances for any additionals.

    Obviously zero allowance for delivery to the customer site and zero allowance for labour.

    I'm really looking forward to you sharing details on the suppliers that can supply the above or equivalent at a price point that would allow for it to be supplied and professionally installed at €1000 Inc VAT.

    I would expect the marginal cost of the additional installation works to cost a minimum of €400 inc VAT assuming a crew is already on site for the rest of the installation, which leaves €600 for the supply and delivery of the hardware.

    Feel free to PM me supplier details if the charter won't allow you to share them on thread.
    I'm very keen to source panels & parts from your supplier at your kind of prices!


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭thos


    unkel wrote: »
    No problem at all. Unless the buildings are very far apart the losses through the cables will be small. My own setup is 5 panels on high south facing roof, 5 panels on south facing kitchen extension and 3 panels on west facing shed.
    Out of interest is that all through same inverter? Are the West & South panels on a shared string or separate?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,741 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    No you're right, air. I wasn't thinking of the implications of having the install on a second roof elsewhere (as would be the case for Phil). My mistake.

    I was thinking of doing a 6kwp install instead of a 4kwp install on the same roof as part of the same array. Would take not much more than an hour extra to install the 6-7 panels and you wouldn't need any extra scaffolding / isolators / etc. And a 5kwp hybrid inverter is no more expensive than a 4kwp inverter the last time I looked. And delivery won't cost any more for a 6kwp than for a 4kwp system and won't take up any more time. And I was presuming a standard pantile roof. Slate is a lot more expensive and time consuming to install on. You won't need any more cable / MC4 connectors to install that either.

    Those prices you quote are for the public. Installers get a serious discount on that. And they can reclaim the VAT, and often charge only 13.5% VAT for an install including materials and labour. In other words if you are getting a quote from a SEAI installer and they quote you a figure of say €7k for a 4kwp install, I'd say there's a fair chance that if you offer €8k for a 6kwp system (as part of the same array) that they will accept

    This bit:

    Amerisolar 300W - Black € 102.50 X 7 = €717.50
    K2 Solid rail ultralight 32 2.1m € 7.91 X 8 = €63.28
    K2 End Clamp €2.09 X 4 = €8.36
    K2 Mid Clamp €2.09 X 12 = €25.08
    K2 T-Bolt M10x30 A2 K1000042 € 0.30 X 16 = €4.80
    K2 T-Bolt M10x30 A2 K1000041 € 0.30 = €4.80

    At installers cost comes to about €790 including 13.5% VAT the installer would charge you. And we're talking 2.1kwp here. A 1.8kwp 6 panel system would be a good bit cheaper


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    Fair enough, I still think you're dreaming if you think someone (or even a pair) can install 6-7 (additional) panels on a domestic roof in an hour.
    Realistically it's going to take at least 10 minutes just to haul the panels up there safely.
    Removing and reinstating tiles, possibly notching for clearance underneath, drilling for and installing fixings, fixing and aligning rails, pre fix clips, haul and place panels, secure and tighten clips, install earthing links, etc.
    Inevitably there will be a broken tile or two to deal with as well.

    I've installed plenty of panels on several different tiled roofs but I think I must be doing something wrong since it's always taken me a hell of a lot longer than 10 minutes a panel!

    Also I'm pretty confident that you're vastly overestimating the margins on the panels and other hardware, Solartricity are very competitive with even large UK wholesalers to the best of my knowledge.

    I have no idea if it's permissable to charge 13.5% on the materials or not as I'm not in the business.

    I'm all for people getting a great deal but I think it's important that expectations are realistic as well, installers need to cover costs at the very least.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,741 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    air wrote: »
    Also I'm pretty confident that you're vastly overestimating the margins on the panels and other hardware

    Nope. The discounts are available for the trade. Trust me on that one :)
    air wrote: »
    I have no idea if it's permissable to charge 13.5% on the materials or not as I'm not in the business.

    That depends on what value of the install is materials and what value is labour. It's the two thirds rule. If the ex-VAT price of the parts is less than two thirds of the total ex-VAT bill, the installer is allowed to just charge 13.5% on the whole bill. In practice that is what most installers charge no matter what the percentage is, unless it is very obvious that materials are like 90% of the total cost.
    air wrote: »
    I'm all for people getting a great deal but I think it's important that expectations are realistic as well

    Indeed. Personally I tend to get very good deals on parts, but I work hard for those deals. Might look at eBay for months on end for something. I don't just pick a supplier and order the parts. As for installers - deals can be made. Don't just accept a quote you get and pay it. Negotiate!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    unkel wrote: »
    Nope. The discounts are available for the trade. Trust me on that one :)

    I don't think it's very likely that there are major margins to be honest, I've dealt with a lot of people in the industry across Ireland, the UK & Germany and have a fairly good handle on manufacturer pricing levels.
    unkel wrote: »
    That depends on what value of the install is materials and what value is labour. It's the two thirds rule. If the ex-VAT price of the parts is less than two thirds of the total ex-VAT bill, the installer is allowed to just charge 13.5% on the whole bill. In practice that is what most installers charge no matter what the percentage is, unless it is very obvious that materials are like 90% of the total cost.
    Fair enough.
    unkel wrote: »
    Indeed. Personally I tend to get very good deals on parts, but I work hard for those deals.

    As have I in the past, but scraping deals on odd quantities here and there from eBay etc is of no relevance to consumers on this thread.
    They are looking to deal with suppliers that need to deliver a professional product in quantity on demand.
    This means the goods have to be sourced at normal wholesale rates.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,741 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    air wrote: »
    I don't think it's very likely that there are major margins to be honest, I've dealt with a lot of people in the industry across Ireland, the UK & Germany and have a fairly good handle on manufacturer pricing levels.

    I have no idea of manufacturer pricing levels or margins for wholesalers. But I do know that on prices listed on websites from wholesalers, these prices are for the public. There is a substantial discount available to the trade. You will have to take my word on that. If you don't want to, so be it :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 283 ✭✭pale rider


    kceire wrote: »
    Can you post some figures. I think your savings are incorrect.
    Even a 10 kWh battery only costs €1.80 to fill at full day rate and that would be more that what you’d use.

    I clarified this on the thread already, correct figure is around €3 a day on good to very good days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    This came up on Facebook feed

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