Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

unkel

I'd love to get a quote for just a battery installed under the PV grant scheme. I have solar PV already. The grant for the battery install is €1,000 and a decent 2.4kWh Li-ion battery retails for about €980+VAT from reputable solar retailers / wholesalers

I would like to have the battery installed on the AC side, so it would be completely independent of my current PV install

Any idea of what money I am looking at? Hardware and install costs?

air

unkel wrote: »

I'd love to get a quote for just a battery installed under the PV grant scheme. I have solar PV already. The grant for the battery install is €1,000 and a decent 2.4kWh Li-ion battery retails for about €980+VAT from reputable solar retailers / wholesalers

I would like to have the battery installed on the AC side, so it would be completely independent of my current PV install

Any idea of what money I am looking at? Hardware and install costs?

Are you looking at the cost of a battery module or a battery module plus controller?
If it's AC coupled it needs a controller which is effectively a second inverter.

Why don't you get a few quotes?

unkel

air wrote: »

Are you looking at the cost of a battery module or a battery module plus controller?
If it's AC coupled it needs a controller which is effectively a second inverter.

Total installed cost. So yes, battery + controller + install costs -/- grant

air wrote: »

Why don't you get a few quotes?

Aye that is my next step. But if someone on here has any rough idea of total cost to me, that would help. If total cost to me is under a grand, I might consider it. If it is like two grand, I wouldn't want to waste any installers time by getting a quote that I will go through with

air

You're quoting 980+ VAT though, which is only the cost of the battery module as I understand it?
I'd imagine you'd do well to get it installed for €1k cost to yourself to be honest and I think the economics are very poor unless you're also using it to help avail of the additional €1600 of grant aid for the PV element that's associated with it.

unkel

air wrote: »

You're quoting 980+ VAT though, which is only the cost of the battery module as I understand it?

Yes, you understand it correctly. Just looked it up and the battery has come down to 950 + VAT

air wrote: »

I'd imagine you'd do well to get it installed for €1k cost to yourself to be honest and I think the economics are very poor

For €1k net to me I would consider it. At that rate it is basically half price. If all I would use it for is load up with 8c night rate and use at 16c day rate every day, it would save €70 per year (365 days times (0.16 - 0.08) * 2.4kWh). If the saving from using it to store access solar during the day (and use it at night before night rate kicks in) is another (very modest) €70 per year, then payback all of a sudden is only about 7 years. I can live with that!

air

Fair enough. Not a great financial proposition even at that though.
Plus you'd want to install a good bit more PV yourself in order to have much of a chance of charging it up from solar on any kind of regular basis.
Would you not be tempted to just get PV + battery under the grant altogether?
I'm assuming you haven't registered your existing PV with ESB.

unkel

air wrote: »

you'd want to install a good bit more PV yourself in order to have much of a chance of charging it up from solar on any kind of regular basis.

What makes you say that? I have 1.65kwp (S+W), which would fill up a 2.4kWh battery 3 times on a good day. Granted it would not fill it up on a bad day. The figure of €70 saving per year I plucked out of the air is extremely low though. I would also attach a value of a few hundred quid on a battery system for gimmick reasons

air wrote: »

Would you not be tempted to just get PV + battery under the grant altogether?

I would, but I have very little space left on my main roof (already have 3 * velux swindow and 40 * solar tubes). Also technically I would need to apply for planning permission if I installed any more panels

air wrote: »

I'm assuming you haven't registered your existing PV with ESB.

Why would anyone register their PV with ESB? I thought that was only done way back when, when people were getting money back for exporting to the grid?

air

I believe it's a requirement of ESB Networks that they be notified of any generating equipment that is connected to the network.
See here: https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/conditions-governing-connection-and-operation-of-micro-generation-policy.pdf

The fact that your array is so small and split I would think that it would not fill the battery very often, especially given your very high base load.
Gadget and green factor is acknowledged but the hardware is effectively worthless after 7-10 years so there's no capital return other than any savings generated. I don't have high hopes for the life expectancy of the lithium packs being marketed for grid storage given the discharge levels used and the quality of the cells in some of them.
There are already plenty of "spares and repairs" packs coming up on Ebay UK that have partially failed.

phester28

Its a regulatory thing which attempts to be a safety thing. Any good grid tie inverter prevents a back feed. If the grid tie is of the Irish spec then all is well there. Reg with the esb is a belts and braces thing as any ESB worker will short any wires with a buss-bar before attempting to work on them.

Shefwedfan

I dont support this party, can't even remember contacting him but I must have at one stage


You contacted us previously in regard to environmental issues.

We would like to update you in regard to the Sinn Féin Microgeneration Support Scheme Bill which will come before the Dáil this coming Tuesday 27th November.

This bill aims to establish a feed-in tariff for electricity exported to the grid from small scale generation. We hope all parties can support the bill as we believe that small scale generation must form part of the wide portfolio of renewable energy sources we need going forward.

If you would like to receive further contact from us and our environmental policies please let us know.

Is mise le meas,

Brian Stanley TD

uck51js9zml2yt

I thought this thread was about quotes !!!

KAGY

Brecken Tart Newscast wrote: »

I thought this thread was about quotes !!!

€12800 from active8 {down from 20k+ with their " discounts " and grant) 13 panel, 4kWp, 5kWhr battery. ground mount (added 2k to roof install)
My own calcs suggest 21 years payback at current prices, 15 years payback if elec prices increase 5% per year neglecting the fact I have night rate.

KAGY

Follow up q: does anyone know if the mounting system need to be certified for the grant, I.e. will there be problems if I design and build a ground mount system myself

wexfordman2

KAGY wrote: »

€12800 from active8 {down from 20k+ with their " discounts " and grant) 13 panel, 4kWp, 5kWhr battery. ground mount (added 2k to roof install)
My own calcs suggest 21 years payback at current prices, 15 years payback if elec prices increase 5% per year neglecting the fact I have night rate.

So, 13k nearly, after tax and after grant for 4kw solar with a 5kwh battery ?

The faxt that they even dared.to quote you 20k in the first place, never mind that the quote above is woefull, wiyod make me steer clear of them.

randombar

wexfordman2 wrote: »

So, 13k nearly, after tax and after grant for 4kw solar with a 5kwh battery ?

The faxt that they even dared.to quote you 20k in the first place, never mind that the quote above is woefull, wiyod make me steer clear of them.

Don't forget the sign you've to put up!!

BryanF

KCross & UNKLE we’ll leave it there thanks

KAGY

GaryCocs wrote: »

Don't forget the sign you've to put up!!

But, but, if I get 8 ppl to purchase I get the system fo' free

wexfordman2

KAGY wrote: »

But, but, if I get 8 ppl to purchase I get the system fo' free

I genuinely thing seai should he doing something to reign installers who are overcharging.

Some guideline pricing in the seai website for example,.or outlawing of hard sell tactics.

KAGY

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I genuinely thing seai should he doing something to reign installers who are overcharging.

Some guideline pricing in the seai website for example,.or outlawing of hard sell tactics.

Yeah, I'm lucky I could do the maths (see kids, sum of geometric series is used in the real world).
TBF, they didn't lie, the figures quoted for annual generation tallied with pvgis
Not sure you could ban hard selling though, but like everything, do a bit of research first.

unkel

air wrote: »

You're quoting 980+ VAT though, which is only the cost of the battery module as I understand it?
I'd imagine you'd do well to get it installed for €1k cost to yourself to be honest

It looks like an easy job. What you need for an AC attached battery storage solution (very easy to extend with multiple batteries, but I would start with one):

-SoFar ME 3000SP energy storage inverter
-One Pylontech 2.4kWh lithium battery
-All necessary CT clamps and comms and power cables

Total cost of above GBP1299 + VAT

Linky


DIY install, apart from mounting the equipment, the install should take well under an hour. You don't need to touch your consumer unit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkTPaP49Jeo

and the clamps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFBrwY2K-rc

Controlled via an Android app

I will be getting some quotes for this from SEAI approved installers in the next few months, but surely they should not go over the €2k before grant by much (meaning net just a bit over €1k)?

I'll update here once I get a few quotes

air

£1299+VAT is €1750 close enough, you also need to get it shipped from the UK - say another €60
I'd imagine the SEAI installer will want at least €500 out of it to call out and install plus handle the administration and allow for overheads etc.
Which makes me think the coat to you is more likely to be closer to €1400.
At 8c margin between day and night rate, that's 17,500kWh to recover your investment, or 7291 cycles to 100% discharge.


Double the amount to 16c to assume it's all charged with PV and discharged to house loads during day rate and I still can't see it stacking up to be honest.

I've ignored charge and discharge efficiencies, opportunity cost and the chance of any failure before it has paid for itself to help the business case.

randombar

Few quotes in:


4.2kWp kitted to 2.4kWh battery storage
14 x Bisol 300w Monocrystalline modules (All black modules)
Van DerValk Ground Mount System
Santon Fire Safety Switch
Santon Switch Gear
Sofar 4.0kWp Inverter kitted to 2.4Kwh Pylon Tech Battery storage system
Costing
€9550(inclusive of VAT)
€3800 (SEAI Grant)
€5750 Final cost after grant incentive
NOTE: You will need to have a foundation laid for the ground mount structure and ducting from the PV system to the house


1 3.6 kw system including Panels
5 kw hybrid inverter
Brackets buckets
Battery and all the necessary components
Cables wires etc for the pv side
@ €4620 plus vat
Fitting to garage wiring board
Etc 800 circa

Note: This is one is not going the grant route

3.6 kw system with inverter ground mounted
System €2800 plus vat
Fitting probably €600 plus vat

Note: This is one is not going the grant route

Waiting on a few more to come back to me.

Torn between going the grant and getting the battery or just putting up a few panels.

Few people are saying to me that the grant is adding a lot more overhead to the install etc. that is unnecessary and costs the customer more.

Waiting on a couple more.

conor_mc

By overhead, do they mean decent standards perchance? Or is that too cynical???

unkel

air wrote: »

£1299+VAT is €1750 close enough, you also need to get it shipped from the UK - say another €60
I'd imagine the SEAI installer will want at least €500 out of it to call out and install plus handle the administration and allow for overheads etc.
Which makes me think the coat to you is more likely to be closer to €1400.

Agreed about €1200-€1400 would be in the ballpark

Now lets take this over a 7 year period. I can charge the 2.4kWh battery up once a night with night rate. This gives me:

7 years * 365 days * 1 * 2.4kWh * 0.08 = €490

I can also charge it up between 0.0 times (very bad day in winter) and theoretically 2.5 times (very good day in summer) with PV. Let's say on average 1 time a day, so 7 * 365 * 1 * 2.4kWh * 0.16 = €980

(note: my base load is high now because of a hobby, but let's presume it will only be average from say next summer)

That's a total of €1470, so give or take a few losses, a pay back period of roughly 7 years? The hardware should last a good bit longer than that, even the battery and once batteries get cheaper I can just add them. It is also likely that I will be adding PV

Seems like a decent proposition? My opportunity costs of money are about zero and I do not have to borrow money for this.

KCross

Your calculations assume you can charge/discharge the battery fully twice per day. I think that’s a very tall order and it equates to probably 50% of an average houses yearly consumption.

That will be very hard to achieve in reality unless you are really managing your hobby to utilise it.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Your calculations assume you can charge/discharge the battery fully twice per day.

Yes, once with night rate and on average once with PV

KCross wrote: »

it equates to probably 50% of an average houses yearly consumption.

Yes, a bit less than half

KCross wrote: »

I think that’s a very tall order

KCross wrote: »

That will be very hard to achieve in reality

Maybe it is. I've no doubt the battery will be empty every evening before the night rate comes in. And I've no doubt the battery will be fully discharged every morning before any useful solar PV comes in

The charging / discharging the battery with PV during the day is the great unknown

I thought my figures were already reasonably prudent, but let's say I can only charge half a cycle during the day on average (and not one full cycle). In that case you would be talking about a payback time of about 10 years

And remember the payback time gets better in the likely scenarios that I will add more PV, that I will add more (cheaper) batteries and that electricity prices will increase

And the total initial investment is just €1200-€1400. Not a huge risk to be taking.

uck51js9zml2yt

GaryCocs wrote: »

Few quotes in:


4.2kWp kitted to 2.4kWh battery storage
14 x Bisol 300w Monocrystalline modules (All black modules)
Van DerValk Ground Mount System
Santon Fire Safety Switch
Santon Switch Gear
Sofar 4.0kWp Inverter kitted to 2.4Kwh Pylon Tech Battery storage system
Costing
€9550(inclusive of VAT)
€3800 (SEAI Grant)
€5750 Final cost after grant incentive
NOTE: You will need to have a foundation laid for the ground mount structure and ducting from the PV system to the house

Gary..Could you pm me who quoted you please?


I'm looking at the possibility of gettiing a ground mounted system.
Do you need to get the foundations done yourself or will they do it?


TIA

randombar

conor_mc wrote: »

By overhead, do they mean decent standards perchance? Or is that too cynical???

I would be very cynical myself but I've heard it from three different suppliers now. To be honest I don't know enough about things but two of these guys were recommended by third parties with no interest either way.

randombar

Brecken Tart Newscast wrote: »

Gary..Could you pm me who quoted you please?


I'm looking at the possibility of gettiing a ground mounted system.
Do you need to get the foundations done yourself or will they do it?


TIA

PM Sent, as I said in the pm, a lot of these guys would have the equipment for doing the ground work so it suits everyone involved if you know someone with a digger

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Maybe it is. I've no doubt the battery will be empty every evening before the night rate comes in. And I've no doubt the battery will be fully discharged every morning before any useful solar PV comes in

The charging / discharging the battery with PV during the day is the great unknown

I thought my figures were already reasonably prudent, but let's say I can only charge half a cycle during the day on average (and not one full cycle). In that case you would be talking about a payback time of about 10 years

And remember the payback time gets better in the likely scenarios that I will add more PV, that I will add more (cheaper) batteries and that electricity prices will increase

And the total initial investment is just €1200-€1400. Not a huge risk to be taking.

True, not a big investment and if you are sure of the two cycles per day your figures look in the right ball park although you haven’t included the extra cost of a hybrid inverter, that needs to be paid for too.

Allowing for losses and battery degradation 7-10 years sounds reasonable. Battery will have 10yrs warranty so your covered there.

You would be very much the exception with two cycles per day.

See if you can get a quote that is €1400 net to you is the next hurdle!

unkel

KCross wrote: »

True, not a big investment and if you are sure of the two cycles per day your figures look in the right ball park although you haven’t included the extra cost of a hybrid inverter, that needs to be paid for too.

Nope, no need for a hybrid inverter. The Sofar ME3000SP energy storage inverter(linky) sits on the AC side, connected to the battery. Both completely independent of any solar PV setup. You can use it without any solar PV system. Watch the 2 vids in my previous post, only a few minutes each!

randombar

unkel wrote: »

Nope, no need for a hybrid inverter. The Sofar ME3000SP energy storage inverter(linky) sits on the AC side, connected to the battery. Both completely independent of any solar PV setup. You can use it without any solar PV system. Watch the 2 vids in my previous post, only a few minutes each!

Just wondering about it from an efficiency perspective.

Solar - DC -> Inverter to AC - AC - > Inverter to DC - DC -> Battery

Would there be much losses?

unkel

Sure. The biggest loss is from sun to Solar PV though, you lose 80-85% on that bit even before it goes into the inverter

conor_mc

GaryCocs wrote: »

Just wondering about it from an efficiency perspective.

Solar - DC -> Inverter to AC - AC - > Inverter to DC - DC -> Battery

Would there be much losses?

Read one blog post today, gave ~98% efficiency on one leg, followed by ~95% on the second, for a net of 93% or so. Can’t remember the inverter in question just now though.

rolion

unkel wrote: »

Nope, no need for a hybrid inverter. The Sofar ME3000SP energy storage inverter(linky) sits on the AC side, connected to the battery. Both completely independent of any solar PV setup. You can use it without any solar PV system. Watch the 2 vids in my previous post, only a few minutes each!

nice storage unit for retrofit systems designs.

I think you will make yourself a big disadvantage by buying a product from a non local supplier or at least,not represented or based in UK.
By purchasing a important piece in the overall PV architecture and having to return it to some third party across many seas and oceans will invalidate any savings you have made already(or will make in the future,after replacment after an unknwon RMA / warranty work ).

Thats one of the main reasons why i advise to go with a known name that has a local Irish or UK presence ...

unkel

rolion wrote: »

I think you will make yourself a big disadvantage by buying a product from a non local supplier or at least,not represented or based in UK.
By purchasing a important piece in the overall PV architecture and having to return it to some third party across many seas and oceans will invalidate any savings you have made already(or will make in the future,after replacment after an unknwon RMA / warranty work ).

Thats one of the main reasons why i advise to go with a known name that has a local Irish or UK presence ...

I have no intention of buying these parts and fitting them myself. Sure it is cheaper to get an Irish SEAI approved installer do it

conor_mc

Interesting blog on the plyontech battery warranty fwiw unkel.

https://blog.spiritenergy.co.uk/homeowner/solar-storage-warranty-powerwall-pylontech-powervault

air

So the usable capacity is 2.15kWh and the lifetime cycle cost is similar to the retail price of electricity (excluding the grant admittedly). The warranty doesn't sound too promising.
I just can't see the justification for residential storage at these prices unless you need and get backup / off grid capability as well.

unkel

air wrote: »

(excluding the grant admittedly)

The grant makes all the difference. It's a nice system to get "officially" installed for just €1300. Not so much for the guts of €2000 and you having to do your own DIY install.

air wrote: »

The warranty doesn't sound too promising.

The written warranty is not really relevant. If you buy from an SEAI approved Irish installer, it will have to comply with the Sale of Goods Act. If the battery fails after say 5 years, the supplier should get it fixed, should replace it or should issue you a full refund and if the they don't play ball, the small claims court will find in your favour.

air

That's well and good if the installing company and indeed Pylontech are around in 5 years.
Personally I can think of plenty of better ways to spend €1400
I stand by my position that battery storage at this point is only viable as a means to get the additional €1600 of grant aid to those for whom this is applicable.

rolion

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I dont support this party, can't even remember contacting him but I must have at one stage


You contacted us previously in regard to environmental issues.

We would like to update you in regard to the Sinn Féin Microgeneration Support Scheme Bill which will come before the Dáil this coming Tuesday 27th November.

This bill aims to establish a feed-in tariff for electricity exported to the grid from small scale generation. We hope all parties can support the bill as we believe that small scale generation must form part of the wide portfolio of renewable energy sources we need going forward.

If you would like to receive further contact from us and our environmental policies please let us know.

Is mise le meas,

Brian Stanley TD

Well...is this side of 2018 November or...2019 side of November !?

Shefwedfan

rolion wrote: »

Well...is this side of 2018 November or...2019 side of November !?

It was discussed on Tuesday


I didnt watch but the feedback was that they do not want private house getting FiT. THey are using the excuse that people who get FiT will increase the price for people without FiT.....which is a load of bulls**t


They released something about trying to do it for small business but that again is a load of bulls**t.


Too many jobs for the boys in ESB etc

antoinolachtnai

Well, after 2021 you will have to have access to the settlement to sell your electricity under EU law, whatever the government says or does.

The only problem is that we will be paid very little for solar. It is just worth very little.

It is definitely true that if you pay a home producer more than the market price for the electricity, then other customers who can't afford their own solar will have to pay the difference.

air

Market price plus any green subsidies that are offered to large scale green energy suppliers would be a good starting point for FIT. There should be some benefit to consumers also due to the savings in TUOS and other charges due to the local consumption of export. We're a long way off needing to worry about overall export from clusters of private homes.

antoinolachtnai

Nobody is worried about export from clusters of private homes really. The savings in TUoS and DUoS are there but a bit ephemeral. PV only really produces when the networks are quite lightly loaded. Sure, small producers should get the same as big producers.

Will the rates large producers will get be enough to incentivise small producers?

air

Any FIT at all will help uptake by domestic and small commercial producers and has potential to be very light on administrative and bureaucratic overhead.
Look at people on this thread considering battery storage for returns that are realistically less than that which would be achieved by even a 4c/kWh FIT.

There are certainly concerns about PV on domestic homes in other jurisdictions where they have high penetration. Anecdotally, plenty of people in rural areas in the UK have been refused permission for PV. It's usually due to sharing a transformer with another customer or customers with lots of PV. Almost trivially easy to completely mitigate nowadays though if the will is there.

We're a country set up for the benefit of vested interest groups so a FIT may be a long way off.
We should open an international centre of excellence on regulatory capture, it's almost an art form here.
The coal lobby in Australia is doing it's best to scupper (or at least slow) adoption of solar there, vested interests here are far more slick in how they operate.

With regard to PV producing when networks are lightly loaded, that's old school thinking to an extent. In the medium term the networks will move towards being loaded more heavily when energy is cheapest.
PV production will be ideal for charging EVs parked up during the working day too, most production will occur during hours that the majority of vehicles are parked.

randombar

So my sums to work out if this is a good idea.

Based on: €900 per year usage, cost €4300 for panels inc hybrid inverter (battery to follow) for 3kw system.

Worst case: Reduce our electricity bill by half saving €450 a year, payback would be 9.5 years (based on electricity prices not increasing). If you based it off electricity increasing 5% year on year your return would be in 8.5 years

Best case: Reduce our electricity bill by 3/4 saving €675 a year, payback would be 6 years If you based it off electricity increasing 5% year on year your return would be in 5.5 years

Guessing it would work out somewhere in the middle. Is my worst case too optimistic?

Price Increases on Electricity based on: https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/crops/crops/EnergyInIreland2011Report.PDF

KCross

GaryCocs wrote: »

Worst case: Reduce our electricity bill by half saving €450 a year, payback would be 9.5 years


Is my worst case too optimistic?

So, the question is, how did you calculate that you would half your electricity bill?

Sounds WAY too optimistic to me.

EDIT: When you say your usage is €900 is that the total bill cost or the kWh cost? If its the total bill cost you are definitely out in your calculations as a decent portion of your bill is PSO level and standing charges, which will not change with the addition of Solar.
Even if its €900 for kWh's, its still too optimistic, imo.

unkel

Reducing your bill by half even with a battery sounds optimistic to me. Without a battery you can forget about it, unless you micro manage it (as in switch on appliances consecutively around the middle of the day when it is sunny, etc.)

What's roughly your calculations / assumptions? A lot of people fail to realise that when they run an appliance that uses 1kWh on solar, that the saving is only 8c, not 16c (as they could have run that appliance at night at the lower rate). Same for charging a car, and even worse for heating water...

randombar

unkel wrote: »

Reducing your bill by half even with a battery sounds optimistic to me. Without a battery you can forget about it, unless you micro manage it (as in switch on appliances consecutively around the middle of the day when it is sunny, etc.)

What's roughly your calculations / assumptions? A lot of people fail to realise that when they run an appliance that uses 1kWh on solar, that the saving is only 8c, not 16c (as they could have run that appliance at night at the lower rate). Same for charging a car, and even worse for heating water...

Soooo finger in the air calculations, have a resting load of 400w.

Month = 214 units @ 0.1784 (Day rate => 9 to 23hrs) = €48 per month / €576 per year.
Have a report on one of the guys 4kw set up: 310 units per month on average
3kw set up would then be: 232 units maybe? Don't know how much would be wasted out of that? Solar thermal pump uses a bit when it's sunny, that would be written off etc. etc.

Day rate, night rate argument I get but I cant get herself to do two washes at night, best case scenario we have one wash done in the morning on night rate. (we're averaging 6 or 7 a week, all on fri, sat, sun, all very weather dependent, if the sun is shining she'll want to do them as it could be raining the next day). Setting up a dehumidifier and drying room too which should sort out drying clothes if required overnight. Dishwasher is already night-rate.