Star Trek: Picard - Amazon Prime [** POSSIBLE SPOILERS **]

Sad Professor

UBI is a fairly right-wing idea and a far cry from Picard's description of a society with no money, hunger, want, etc. They have obviously just abandoned the idea of the Federation being a post-scarcity society. In fairness, despite paying lip service to the idea, the TNG/DS9 writers could never get their heads around it anyway. It was all bit too communist sounding to them and in the end of history/TINA era they struggled to even imagine it. Star Trek Picard depicts the 24th century as being much like the present - same clothes, same slang, same social issues, etc - but everyone has holographic computers. The utopianism is gone. And what's worse the show doesn't even acknowledge that it's gone.

Goodshape

UBI isn't necessarily right-wing at all. There's a socially conservative take on it – which usually includes the idea of paying for it all by eliminating existing social programs which would have been used primarily by people with lower income – but that's not the only way to do "UBI". Although maybe that's a discussion for another forum! :-D


Anyway I'm not sure they have shown that "utopianism is gone". Don't think they've either confirmed or denied. We've hardly seen the Federation or Starfleet. A couple of unhappy people (Rafi and the captain guy) isn't proof of anything. Nor is coruption in Starfleet or the existance of a comerical planet, or even people having a job or getting paid for things.

Picard owning an expansive vineyard is difficult to square, but we don't know the setup there. And it didn't make any more sense in the 1990s TV show either.

pixelburp

Yeah I wouldn't have squared UBI as right wing, surely if implemented correctly and fairly (which we may assume in the example of the Fed), it's the ultimate in left wing ideology - in that the "state" takes care of all your comforts and needs. Cant say I've thought too much about or too hard about it, beyond this thread

Have the books or spin off media ever tried to square the circle of the (intentionally?) ambiguous mechanics of Fed Earth's society? Seems ironic that for a franchise famed for granular, pedantic fandom, arguably what's the core geographic location in its universe remains sketchy at best. Feels like we know more about Romulan or Cardassian society than Earth's.

Mollyb60

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Which is out of character in itself, especially for something he was so adamant about and dedicated to.

The Picard of old would have rounded up the old gang and gone rogue if needed (eg: First Contact when he ignores Command and brings the Enterprise into the battle with the Cube, or Insurrection where he violates orders again to defend the Ba'ku).

He wouldn't have thrown away his influence and career in a failed attempt to call Command's bluff, and he definitely wouldn't have given up and gone home to wallow while millions died and his loyal second (Raffi) took the fall as well.

Stark wrote: »

Wasn't a matter of just "going against orders". How do you migrate billions of people without the help of the Federation/Starfleet?

The shipyards on Mars were involved in a massive shipbuilding program to make the migration feasible. With the shipyards destroyed, they didn't have enough remaining ships to continue the mission and keep the Federation running at the same time.

We've been having this argument in my house since the show started. I think Picard would've thrown everything he had at the rescue attempt, saved as many as he could which whatever ships he could scramble together, Starfleet don't have a monopoly on spaceships. He had tons of diplomatic connections with other races, he could've called in favours all over the galaxy. There's no way he would've just popped off to his vineyard with his favourite 2 Romulans and just left the rest to die. My husband disagrees.

pixelburp

It's entirely possible that just to get the armada put together, all those favours and connections Picard likely had were already called on; can't have been easy just getting the cooperation & coordination needed in the first place without compromises, so when the Martian attack happened & the key pillar in the whole enterprise stepped away, said favours probably collapsed too.

Given the major powers of the Quadrant were still nursing wounds after the Dominion War, which itself would have involved favours and use of political capital, I've never assumed there were enough starships to begin with. Many warships would have stayed on the frontline, if only to make sure the Founders didn't renege on the treaty, or some other power made a play for the Alpha Quadrant. Not like after WW2 all the soldiers went home; many of them stayed on the front-lines of the Cold War borders, not least Berlin famously. The economic war footing was ramped down too, shipyards and factories scaled back 'cos of a demand no longer there.

Evade

Mars was attacked a decade after the Dominion War ended most of those wounds should be scarred over if not outright healed.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

Mars was attacked a decade after the Dominion War ended most of those wounds should be scarred over if not outright healed.

Don't agree, 10 years is nothing on a galactic scale, no reason to think anyone was willing or capable to divert forces along the likely still fragile borders between everyone, for the sake of an admittedly seismic event. Crews, populations, economies would still be reeling from that War, along with any other local issues that hadn't changed like the Maquis, Borg, local ethnic conflicts or whatever.

In Britain, rationing didn't formerly end until 1954, nearly 10 years after ww2 ended (IIRC, in fact it came back briefly during the Suez Crisis). And the Soviets might have been the West's allies during that war, but once the common enemy disappeared, existing enmities returned, guns aimed at each other again. The Berlin AirLift happened 3 years after the war ended.

In a less warlike situation, it took Ireland 10 years for the economy to recover from the 2008 crash - and some would debate if we've even achieved it at all. Wars collapse economies of those on the frontline, no way the Quadrant was in a fit state to handle a refugee crisis.

Evade

I don't think any of those economic examples can really be analogous in a universe with replicators.

What borders are left to seriously guard? Klingons are allies again, Cardassia were only really a threat with the Dominion, same goes for the Breen, and the last time we saw the Romulan Empire Picard's conversation with Donatra hinted there was a willingness for peace plus they're the ones in need of aid. Maybe, maybe, the Tholians but they mostly keep to themselves, or the Sheliac, but they have 70 years of bureaucratic red tape before they can even table a proposal to consider the option of issuing a declaration of war.

Rawr

Evade wrote: »

or the Sheliac, but they have 70 years of bureaucratic red tape before they can even table a proposal to consider the option of issuing a declaration of war.

(Begins process of applying for a form to submit a proposal to +1 this comment, in accordance with Section 233, Paragraph 5 of the Boardsie Acknowledgement (Amendment) Treaty)

AMKC

I am hoping the first season of Picard ends up with Picard and his motley crew in a proper ship like say a Miranda, Nova, Nebula or hell even an Oberth class ship. Actually I have always liked the Oberth class ships even if they are small.

pixelburp

AMKC wrote: »

I am hoping the first season of Picard ends up with Picard and his motley crew in a proper ship like say a Miranda, Nova, Nebula or hell even an Oberth class ship. Actually I have always liked the Oberth class ships even if they are small.

I don't like the design, but it makes narrative sense for a 2, 3 or 4 man craft to effectively be a glorified shuttle craft. I like the interior TBH if not the exterior. Feels like a suped up shuttle. Not like there weren't plenty of Trek episodes centred around the shuttles as primary mode of transport. A proper "class" of ship would need more extras, more sets, etc when it's not really that kind of show. As much as it'd be nice to see a Fed ship zipping about, the ...whatever the name of it is, suits the purpose.

AMKC

Stark wrote: »

Wasn't a matter of just "going against orders". How do you migrate billions of people without the help of the Federation/Starfleet?

The shipyards on Mars were involved in a massive shipbuilding program to make the migration feasible. With the shipyards destroyed, they didn't have enough remaining ships to continue the mission and keep the Federation running at the same time.

Surly it was silly of them to try to build all the ships at the one shipyard anyway. I certainly think it was. They should have had 2 or 3 even 4 shipyards building them. Then the likelihood of them all getting destroyed would have been less.

_Kaiser_

AMKC wrote: »

Surly it was silly of them to try to build all the ships at the one shipyard anyway. I certainly think it was. They should have had 2 or 3 even 4 shipyards building them. Then the likelihood of them all getting destroyed would have been less.

You have to remember that this was Mars in the heart of the Federation (Sol). Also with the end of the Dominion war they wouldn't have expected a threat, certainly not from within or on that scale.

Personally I always thought that the Breen attack on Earth during the latter stages of the war was strange. No cloaking devices but even allowing for the weapon they had, they've presumably managed to cut through multiple layers of significantly increased defences and systems with sufficient strength remaining to attack Earth, and yet they didn't irradiate the planet before they were chased off?

Hmmm..

Evade

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You have to remember that this was Mars in the heart of the Federation (Sol). Also with the end of the Dominion war they wouldn't have expected a threat, certainly not from within or on that scale.

Personally I always thought that the Breen attack on Earth during the latter stages of the war was strange. No cloaking devices but even allowing for the weapon they had, they've presumably managed to cut through multiple layers of significantly increased defences and systems with sufficient strength remaining to attack Earth, and yet they didn't irradiate the planet before they were chased off?

Hmmm..

It was a Doolittle raid. The point wasn't to do any real damage it was to show they could strike anywhere. We'd already seen that Starfleet was reluctant to pull forces away from Earth during the war (the plan to retake DS9) and after the Breen attack I wonder how many ships were pulled back from the front line to guard against another Breen raid.

AMKC

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You have to remember that this was Mars in the heart of the Federation (Sol). Also with the end of the Dominion war they wouldn't have expected a threat, certainly not from within or on that scale.

Personally I always thought that the Breen attack on Earth during the latter stages of the war was strange. No cloaking devices but even allowing for the weapon they had, they've presumably managed to cut through multiple layers of significantly increased defences and systems with sufficient strength remaining to attack Earth, and yet they didn't irradiate the planet before they were chased off?

Hmmm..

It was probably a suicide run by the Breen. They probably dropped out of Warp just above Earth and started firing before they got destroyed or were chased out.

You have to remember that this was Mars in the heart of the Federation (Sol). Also with the end of the Dominion war they wouldn't have expected a threat, certainly not from within or on that scale.

Good point. Still if the starfleet intelligence agencies were doing there job it should not have happened. What were section 31 doing? I just thought how the Synth was hacked and then able to hack all the Mars systems seemed to show a lack of security on Starfleets part.

TheValeyard

AMKC wrote: »

It was probably a suicide run by the Breen. They probably dropped out of Warp just above Earth and started firing before they got destroyed or were chased out.

You have to remember that this was Mars in the heart of the Federation (Sol). Also with the end of the Dominion war they wouldn't have expected a threat, certainly not from within or on that scale.

Good point. Still if the starfleet intelligence agencies were doing there job it should not have happened. What were section 31 doing? I just thought how the Synth was hacked and then able to hack all the Mars systems seemed to show a lack of security on Starfleets part.

Never know, Section31 could be in on it.

AMKC

So Robert Picardo might be back to reprises his role as the Doctor in the second season of Star Trek Picard.

Not sure how true that is. I just seen it on FB.

What would you think of this?

Stark

Would love to see him back. Himself and seven of nine were the best characters on Voyager. Could easily be worked into the AI storyline as well.

Slydice

Depends on how far along his personality is at this point. Can honestly see the earlyEMH getting a rise out of Picard over something small... but it was shown that he progresses a lot into the future.

TheValeyard

AMKC wrote: »

So Robert Picardo might be back to reprises his role as the Doctor in the second season of Star Trek Picard.

Not sure how true that is. I just seen it on FB.

What would you think of this?

I want Miles O'Brien back!

_Kaiser_

TheValeyard wrote: »

I want Miles O'Brien back!

I actually don't want any more of the previous characters or cast back unless it's as a regular member of the show.

Having these cameos is just frustrating as to what could have been, but then they're killing off half of them for no reason anyway (

Icheb, Hugh

).

Greyjoy

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Having these cameos is just frustrating as to what could have been, but then they're killing off half of them for no reason anyway (Icheb, Hugh).

Yeah the Picard series has become a revolving door for bringing back TNG characters then killing them off for "shock" value. If they're not going to do anything substantial with the old characters don't bring them back.

pixelburp

Guys.

"Star Trek: Picard - Amazon Prime [** NO SPOILERS **]"

Maybe we should just kill this thread 'cos this keeps happening.

AMKC

TheValeyard wrote: »

I want Miles O'Brien back!

Colm Meaney was on ''The Tommy Tiernan Show'' just saying in case you did not see my tread about it lol.

pixelburp wrote: »

Guys.

"Star Trek: Picard - Amazon Prime [** NO SPOILERS **]"

Maybe we should just kill this thread 'cos this keeps happening.

No I don't think we should. People just need to not put any spoilers in there post.

Bobtheman

I enjoyed seeing Riker and Troi again. It was pure nostalgia. Didnt really advance the plot much but it warmed my heart.
Though I'm partly inclined to think Stewart is just too damn old for this.

GreeBo

Bobtheman wrote: »

I enjoyed seeing Riker and Troi again. It was pure nostalgia. Didnt really advance the plot much but it warmed my heart.
Though I'm partly inclined to think Stewart is just too damn old for this.

The bolded bit has been the problem with the whole show for me.

AMKC

TheValeyard wrote: »

I want Miles O'Brien back!

I don't think there is any chance of that happening unfortunately as he has let himself go and forgotten most of what he said and done on Star Trek. I suppose do if you not doing it you are going to forget it or just not be good at it anymore. He did however say the writing and stories were always very good. The one episode he did remember ''Past Tense'' is obviously his favorite or close to it s it was the one in brought up in his conversation with Tommy Tiernan.

AtomicHorror

GreeBo wrote: »

Bobtheman wrote: »

I enjoyed seeing Riker and Troi again. It was pure nostalgia. Didnt really advance the plot much but it warmed my heart.
Though I'm partly inclined to think Stewart is just too damn old for this.

The bolded bit has been the problem with the whole show for me.

It reminded me of "Family". I don't know if that episode advanced the arc of season 4 (such as it was), but maybe not every episode needs to do that, even in the age of serialised shows and binge-watching?

Maybe if it warmed our hearts, that's worthwhile too.

Evade

I think one major problem ST:Picard has is it's a three hour story spread across eight hours. It reminds me of the CW DC Universe stuff.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

I think one major problem ST:Picard has is it's a three hour story spread across eight hours. It reminds me of the CW DC Universe stuff.

I find the pace perfectly fine- it allows for a lot of character moments. If you don't like the characters, which I think we've established you do not, then I guess that won't be a pro.

Plenty of the harsher critics of the show think it's too fast-paced, so it seems like the writers really can't win on that point.

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Plenty of the harsher critics of the show think it's too fast-paced, so it seems like the writers really can't win on that point.

Could you post a few links? I'd love to know the arguments for it being fast paced.

Greyjoy

Bobtheman wrote: »

Though I'm partly inclined to think Stewart is just too damn old for this.

As much as I'm enjoying this show I can't shake that feeling either. Given Stewart's age it really limits what the writers can do with his character. I think they missed the window for this show maybe 10 years ago. I also think the idea that people could criticise they show for being *too* fast paced ridiculous. Just because there's a lot happening in each episode doesn't mean the actual story has made any progress. We've only got a few episodes left in the season and the story has barely progressed from the pilot episode.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

Could you post a few links? I'd love to know the arguments for it being fast paced.

You can dismiss my claim as baseless, if you like. Burden of evidence or no, I don't have time to go hunting for citations.

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

You can dismiss my claim as baseless, if you like. Burden of evidence or no, I don't have time to go hunting for citations.

I actually wanted to know what the arguments for it being too fast paced are and didn't think that a link was too much to ask for since there are many examples you've read/watched. Also, I didn't think your claim was baseless but I kind of do now.

ted1

Greyjoy wrote: »

As much as I'm enjoying this show I can't shake that feeling either. Given Stewart's age it really limits what the writers can do with his character. I think they missed the window for this show maybe 10 years ago. I also think the idea that people could criticise they show for being *too* fast paced ridiculous. Just because there's a lot happening in each episode doesn't mean the actual story has made any progress. We've only got a few episodes left in the season and the story has barely progressed from the pilot episode.

They could assimilate him again. Awake the Borg ship.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

I actually wanted to know what the arguments for it being too fast paced are and didn't think that a link was too much to ask for since there are many examples you've read/watched. Also, I didn't think your claim was baseless but I kind of do now.

That's ok, I don't mind you thinking that. I'm not trying to be dismissive of you either. Honestly, it's more about me not letting myself get dragged into, for example what "plenty" means, what sources are valid and invalid and all of that. It never stops at a link or two, is my point.

Which is fine, sometimes. But I'm a compulsive internet arguer and genuinely don't have the time to indulge that impulse at the moment.

uncleoswald

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I find the pace perfectly fine- it allows for a lot of character moments. If you don't like the characters, which I think we've established you do not, then I guess that won't be a pro.

Plenty of the harsher critics of the show think it's too fast-paced, so it seems like the writers really can't win on that point.

I get the disparity of opinion, it's paced very unevenly in my opinion. Like all modern Trek it's edited very quickly and can give the impression you've missed important plot details (wait, who was flying that old school Romulan Bird of Prey and where did Seven come from?) But then more often then not these details don't matter and then the plot will come to a complete standstill for more overwrought melodrama (Raffi's backstory for example...) I understand if you like the characters you might get more from these moments but it's all very shallow and inconsequential in my opinion.

But overall the plot has barely progressed at all with a lot still seemingly to wrap up in just a couple of episodes, even allowing for a season 2. Nothing I've seen so far would fill me with optimism for how they will achieve this.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

I don't think there is any chance of that happening unfortunately as he has let himself go and forgotten most of what he said and done on Star Trek. I suppose do if you not doing it you are going to forget it or just not be good at it anymore. He did however say the writing and stories were always very good. The one episode he did remember ''Past Tense'' is obviously his favorite or close to it s it was the one in brought up in his conversation with Tommy Tiernan.

Let himself go? Did you see Frakes?

pah

I thought Colm Meaney looked quite well

pah

uncleoswald wrote: »

overwrought melodrama

It's abysmal. I can't think off hand what other Trek episodes had this sh ite bit I'm sure they're are a few here and there. My all time favourite episode SubRosa maybe :rolleyes:

The problem is you can forgive an episode here and there but in a serialised story across 10 short episodes it's just unnecessary and mostly inconsequential.

AMKC

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Let himself go? Did you see Frakes?

I mean he has put on weight just like William Shatner has. Also did you see Colm Meaney's latest add. Its terrible. Don't get me wrong I would love to see him back in Star Trek as Myles O' Brian again. I think he is a good actor and should really have done better after DS9.
If your on about Frakes in ''Picard'' I would say the was the look thy wanted him to have and thought he looked good.
No idea what he looks like away from the camera now do.

fixXxer

Frakes has always been a big guy, I thought he looked well considering he's settled down outside of Star fleet. He looked worse in Enterprise where he was squeezed back in to uniform for the holodeck episode.

Stark

Nice interview with Jonathan Del Arco https://www.queerty.com/star-treks-jonathan-del-arco-fate-hugh-borg-life-actor-showbiz-peril-20200312

Some of the more interesting bits: Looked like if Patrick Stewart had said no, they would have gone with Seven of Nine as the lead character. (which would have been awesome, here's hoping that might still happen after season 2).

Apparently gay guys had a crush on Hugh? No accounting for taste though I do remember having a weird attraction to Gul Dukat on Deep Space Nine so can't really comment

As an aside, he looks fantastic at 54 when he's out of the Borg make-up.

368100

Stark wrote: »

No accounting for taste though I do remember having a weird attraction to Gul Dukat on Deep Space Nine so can't really comment
.

:-S He was very skinny but youve reminded ne i had a big thing for Vedek Bareil.....

FGR

Greyjoy wrote: »

As much as I'm enjoying this show I can't shake that feeling either. Given Stewart's age it really limits what the writers can do with his character. I think they missed the window for this show maybe 10 years ago. I also think the idea that people could criticise they show for being *too* fast paced ridiculous. Just because there's a lot happening in each episode doesn't mean the actual story has made any progress. We've only got a few episodes left in the season and the story has barely progressed from the pilot episode.

I think they could have gotten away with the age difficulties if the story had Stewart playing in service Admiral Picard as opposed to rebel on a great big adventure Picard.

Had it been a small federation crew on a small fed ship like a nova class as opposed to this outlaw shuttle it would have mitigated the age disparity. Stewart as old style Picard wouldnt require as much suspension of belief as Captain Picard in TNG days was on the bridge, in the ready room or in his quarters 90% of the time.

The other 10% in cardassian custody or being a borg of course.

Plus it would have allowed for old school serious in charge Picard from TNG

But all that said I'm still enjoying this show !

Note: out of character movie Picard not included in this appraisal.

tromtipp

Stark wrote: »

Nice interview with Jonathan Del Arco https://www.queerty.com/star-treks-jonathan-del-arco-fate-hugh-borg-life-actor-showbiz-peril-20200312

Some of the more interesting bits: Looked like if Patrick Stewart had said no, they would have gone with Seven of Nine as the lead character. (which would have been awesome, here's hoping that might still happen after season 2).

Apparently gay guys had a crush on Hugh? No accounting for taste though I do remember having a weird attraction to Gul Dukat on Deep Space Nine so can't really comment

As an aside, he looks fantastic at 54 when he's out of the Borg make-up.

In I, Borg, although the script and the other actors gave us a story of a borg being humanised by friendship, Del Arco totally played it as his being humanised/transformed by falling in love with Geordie (the way he says his name, that sidelong look at the end). He makes a sacrifice for the man he loves, and I can well imagine the episode and his part in it being important to gay guys, particularly at a time when many of them were closeted and when there were few unstereotyped gay characters on TV.


His performance was brilliant and has aged well (as has he). I keep hoping there'll be some way of bringing him back.

368100 wrote: »

:-S He was very skinny but youve reminded ne i had a big thing for Vedek Bareil.....

Stark

tromtipp wrote: »

In I, Borg, although the script and the other actors gave us a story of a borg being humanised by friendship, Del Arco totally played it as his being humanised/transformed by falling in love with Geordie (the way he says his name, that sidelong look at the end).

Oh I totally picked up on that. For the Picard greeting scene in "Picard", I fully expected him to ask "Is Geordi here too?" with a puppy dog eyes expression.

EltonJohn69

How Picard is portrayed in this series was down to Patrick Steward, he said he would only do it if they approached it in a similar way to Logan.. and he wasn't going to wear any uniform. There is a great interview he did on happy sad confused where he talks about all of this

AMKC

Just noticed there now that episode 9 and 10 are the one episode in two parts.

EltonJohn69

AMKC wrote: »

Just noticed there now that episode 9 and 10 are the one episode in two parts.

So two episodes this week ?