Responsibility for boundaries

Chisler2

My 15-acre holding is bordered by very old dry-stone walls, with stone retaining field-walls criss-crossing within. I have been trying to maintain the walls in good condition despite the extra stress of wetter conditions over
the past couple of years, where heavy surface water caused collapse of a couple of retaining walls on the boundary.


I do not/have no plan to keep sheep. The holding is surrounded by sheep-farmers and commonage. A long stretch of my boundary is where my land and commonage meet.


Their sheep are getting in through a couple of small breaches in the boundary-walls. I am fighting a losing battle trying to patch the walls high enough to keep them out. Identifying the owners is difficult as it is a close-knit community with tribal families so everyone "denies all knowledge".


Any advice on how I should manage this would be helpful. I want to keep cordial relations with neighbours in what is a remote and interdependent location. BUT I must stock-proof my boundaries before the end of the year as I plan to put in a few hectares of native deciduous woodland.


My understanding was that stockholders were responsible for keeping their stock off other peoples' land. I am trying to make that easier for them but all the repair-work falls on me.



Are the immediate landowners jointly responsible - together with myself - for keeping up the boundary-walls?..............even if the stock getting through onto mine is not theirs, but get in from the commonage or belong to an unidentified brother-in-law or cousin?

acai berry

Hi, Chisler2! You bring up a very interesting scenario. I'm in no way qualified to give you the advice you're seeking. Nevertheless, I am very interested, as I' ve had experience regarding a boundary issue, where I lived before now. I'm wondering how long you have had your property. I'm presuming you live there. Do you have a good knowledge of the local history of the area, and how things have been worked out between neighbours in the past? Is there a way things are being done up to now, that is agreed between your neighbours, looking at the townland , as a whole?

Chisler2

The land and cottage became mine four years ago.
I have been renovating and extending (traditional cottage without light, heat or water) and meanwhile living nearby. The implication of your question is that it would be different if I was "on the spot" all the time. However others in the area have the same issue of sheep getting onto their land. I am aware of the shortage of grass and the struggle sheep-farmers are having this year due to the strange weather since last October. In this instance the sheep are "voting with their feet" and getting where the grub is most plentiful as there is good grass on mine.



Whilst having a professional interest and training in analysis of the social dynamics of the local community my query is quite specific. I thought the landholders on each side of a boundary-wall would have shared responsibility for maintenance as it is in both their interests. How should it be managed if that maintenance is only in the interests of ONE party..........in this case, "the unknown neighbour"? I reject the "get a solicitor" option. How are boundary-maintenance issues managed by smallholders?

Glass fused light

If the land was owned by a single individual the sheep owner would have a legal obligation to fence the animals in. The boundry of the land is different from the physical marker ie the fence or wall and on farm land is normaly on only one landowners land and as such is their property. However as the adjacent land is commonage the farmers using the land may have no obligation to maintain or enclose the grazing area so all the walls would be on your property, and so yours to maintain. the easier option in the short term may be a sheep proof fence on the outside of the wall.
Every sheep will have tags with a flock number and a individual ID so the neighbours are BSing when they claim they can't ID the animals. One option is to pen them in close to your house so the owner will have to come and collect them in person. Or have some fun and get a spray dye and mark the fleeces "three trespasses = mutton stew" etc

acai berry

Have you got the deeds to your property? I agree it seems obvious that boundaries would be the joint responsibiity of both parties. But in my experience, that's not always the case. Re the house I owned, I was surprised to learn that legally, I did not own either boundary on either side of me. The neighbours on both sides of me owned the boundaries and I was in between not owning either boundary. Granted, I maintained my side of the boundries, but I was not in a position to introduce any change to the nature of the boundries, such as changing from a wall to a fence, for example. Granted I'm talking about houses in a city suburb, whereas you're talking about a property in the country.

You seem not in favour of consulting a solicitor, but I'm inclined to think you may have to do that in the end, in order to find out your true legal situation. Disagreements re boundaries can be very touchy, as I've found out. Just saying!

Chisler2

Glass fused light wrote: »

If the land was owned by a single individual the sheep owner would have a legal obligation to fence the animals in. The boundry of the land is different from the physical marker ie the fence or wall and on farm land is normaly on only one landowners land and as such is their property. However as the adjacent land is commonage the farmers using the land may have no obligation to maintain or enclose the grazing area so all the walls would be on your property, and so yours to maintain. the easier option in the short term may be a sheep proof fence on the outside of the wall.
Every sheep will have tags with a flock number and a individual ID so the neighbours are BSing when they claim they can't ID the animals. One option is to pen them in close to your house so the owner will have to come and collect them in person. Or have some fun and get a spray dye and mark the fleeces "three trespasses = mutton stew" etc

OK - that's helpful! The boundary walls are "mine". They are beautiful old walls. I also have a ruined ring-fort, an "ancient building and access road" and remains of a famine-era dwelling so great heritage location and love the aul' sthone! Razor-wire and posts would have an impact...........and I have bad experiences of the stuff! So long as I know how it works West of the Shannon I can get on with it and do the repairs myself, with some labour for the commonage breaches which are constructed of large stone and higher than ordinary field-walls.



A neighbour who has had the same issue with sheep on her land in the past did tell me about the flock-number but they have four legs and motivated by hunger and always outrun me. The spray-dye suggestion is delightful and a cheering prospect which would certainly wake up the 'hood!

Glass fused light

Chisler2 wrote: »

OK - that's helpful! The boundary walls are "mine". They are beautiful old walls. I also have a ruined ring-fort, an "ancient building and access road" and remains of a famine-era dwelling so great heritage location and love the aul' sthone! Razor-wire and posts would have an impact...........and I have bad experiences of the stuff! So long as I know how it works West of the Shannon I can get on with it and do the repairs myself, with some labour for the commonage breaches which are constructed of large stone and higher than ordinary field-walls.

I am not saying that the boundary is yours but slow and steady you approach the question in the pub from a local history angle you can circle around slowly till you extract what is or is not owned and by whom.

Ps if you are in a scenic area you could think of organising a course of dry stone wall laying with a stone mason or older men who whould still have the skill etc and link in with the local b&b and business association etc

Chisler2 wrote: »

A neighbour who has had the same issue with sheep on her land in the past did tell me about the flock-number but they have four legs and motivated by hunger and always outrun me. The spray-dye suggestion is delightful and a cheering prospect which would certainly wake up the 'hood!

Slow and steady, you approach the sheep in question by circling around slowly till you have them pointed in the right direction or use a plastic bucket with some feed that will rattle.

Glass fused light

Chisler2 wrote: »

I also have a ruined ring-fort, an "ancient building and access road" and remains of a famine-era dwelling so great heritage location and love the aul' sthone!

Sorry if you are already aware but you need to check with the local council and national monuments service before doing any work on or around the ring-fort or the building or road as they are likely to come under the protected structures and national monuments legistation.

Chisler2

Glass fused light wrote: »

Sorry if you are already aware but you need to check with the local council and national monuments service before doing any work on or around the ring-fort or the building or road as they are likely to come under the protected structures and national monuments legistation.

This is all done and dusted! The fort is listed and I met over-and-above planning restrictions. The "ancient road and building" (the archaologist thought it might be a tiny medieval church) were identified when I considered putting in some native deciduous woodland. They are protected structures........which makes me even more concerned about the depredations of the sheep...........though long before my wardenship began ESB put an electricity pylon up in the middle of the ring-fort!!!!!

Chisler2

Glass fused light wrote: »

I am not saying that the boundary is yours but slow and steady you approach the question in the pub from a local history angle you can circle around slowly till you extract what is or is not owned and by whom.

Ps if you are in a scenic area you could think of organising a course of dry stone wall laying with a stone mason or older men who whould still have the skill etc and link in with the local b&b and business association etc



Slow and steady, you approach the sheep in question by circling around slowly till you have them pointed in the right direction or use a plastic bucket with some feed that will rattle.

That is sound advice and I am thankful and hopefully the speed of getting the information would outpace the speed of the deteriorating boundaries as the sheep widen and deepen them.



As you can guess from my ignorance, I am a townie retired to the Wild Atlantic Way in my dotage. I do know how to build drystone walls but have had no success finding help locally as the skills are in short supply though I am still trying.


I shall try the "circling slowly" stuff with the sheep again.......but these mountain breeds are not just olympic-class runners and jumpers but they are cute hoors. They are hillsheep so I doubt they would recognise a rattling bucket but shall try.


I am grateful for all the advice. The responses make me feel less alone with this.

Rows Grower

Chisler2 wrote: »

My 15-acre holding is bordered by very old dry-stone walls, with stone retaining field-walls criss-crossing within. I have been trying to maintain the walls in good condition despite the extra stress of wetter conditions over
the past couple of years, where heavy surface water caused collapse of a couple of retaining walls on the boundary.


I do not/have no plan to keep sheep. The holding is surrounded by sheep-farmers and commonage. A long stretch of my boundary is where my land and commonage meet.


Their sheep are getting in through a couple of small breaches in the boundary-walls. I am fighting a losing battle trying to patch the walls high enough to keep them out. Identifying the owners is difficult as it is a close-knit community with tribal families so everyone "denies all knowledge".


Any advice on how I should manage this would be helpful. I want to keep cordial relations with neighbours in what is a remote and interdependent location. BUT I must stock-proof my boundaries before the end of the year as I plan to put in a few hectares of native deciduous woodland.


My understanding was that stockholders were responsible for keeping their stock off other peoples' land. I am trying to make that easier for them but all the repair-work falls on me.



Are the immediate landowners jointly responsible - together with myself - for keeping up the boundary-walls?..............even if the stock getting through onto mine is not theirs, but get in from the commonage or belong to an unidentified brother-in-law or cousin?

That is my understanding too.

I'd wager the owner is probably in receipt of some form of annual grant for the sheep.

They will lose this grant if the land is not stock proof and they are seen to not be taking action to rectify this.

It's a delicate situation but you need to let the owner or owners know it's a situation you will not tolerate anymore.

Best of luck and hopefully once they realize you are not someone to be ignored they will do the decent thing and fence in their animals like they are supposed to.

Chisler2

Rows Grower wrote: »

That is my understanding too.

I'd wager the owner is probably in receipt of some form of annual grant for the sheep.

They will lose this grant if the land is not stock proof and they are seen to not be taking action to rectify this.

It's a delicate situation but you need to let the owner or owners know it's a situation you will not tolerate anymore.

Best of luck and hopefully once they realize you are not someone to be ignored they will do the decent thing and fence in their animals like they are supposed to.

Thanks for that clarity Rows Grower. My perception of the law on this was that the farmer was responsible for keeping their stock ON their own land OFF other peoples' and off the public highway. On a couple of occasions a farmer has walked up the lane past my renovation and mentioned casually that they are looking for their missing sheep. There was no apology or suggestion they would help me mend the commonage walls along my stretch. The dwelling was unoccupied for decades and picking up earlier comments I think the mind-set locally is that my land is a common resource.



The best solution seems to be a combination of me making the boundary stockproof by repairing the walls (regardless of who "owns" them!) and also writing a polite but firm letter to my sheepfarming neighbours, all of whom live in the nearby towns, NOT in my immediate area.


I appreciate all the advice. It has helped me clarify and focus the issues.

148multi

Rows Grower wrote: »

That is my understanding too.

I'd wager the owner is probably in receipt of some form of annual grant for the sheep.

They will lose this grant if the land is not stock proof and they are seen to not be taking action to rectify this.

It's a delicate situation but you need to let the owner or owners know it's a situation you will not tolerate anymore.

Best of luck and hopefully once they realize you are not someone to be ignored they will do the decent thing and fence in their animals like they are supposed to.

1, it's an offence under the welfare act to allow animals to stray, dept of agriculture police this mainly. It doesn't matter who is responsible for the fence. Now getting fined for allowing animals to stray is a whole different ball game. Don't think a normal stone wall will keep horny sheep out, you will need high tensile sheep wire and two strands of barbed wire on top. Dept won't give owners details and it all depends on who owns the animals when it comes to how the department of agriculture deals with complaints. Can you approach the farmer that was looking for the sheep and ask him/her to go halves putting up stakes and wire. Could put it on their side of wall and stone wall would block view of wire, you could say that you don't want to report but want to stop trespass. If that doesn't work, pictures of tag numbers (you'll need more than one) and write to the department of agriculture.
Hope you get sorted without anymore hassle.

looksee

Farmer - looking for sheep.
You - only mildly interested, not really taking in the discussion...oh yes there were a couple of animals on my land.
Farmer - so what happened to them
You - ah now, I couldn't say (still not really interested.) So what do you think of (local team)'s chances next weekend?
Farmer - so if you see any on your land will you let me know?
You - ah now, you know how it is. You wouldn't know whose they were. I'll let you know though.

Very discreet undertones of 'I might as well, the freezer is full'.

Edit - in slightly the same situation except with cattle, the neighbouring farmer has put up a very considerable amount of electric fence on his side of the boundary - yay!

Rows Grower

148multi wrote: »

1, it's an offence under the welfare act to allow animals to stray, dept of agriculture police this mainly. It doesn't matter who is responsible for the fence. Now getting fined for allowing animals to stray is a whole different ball game. Don't think a normal stone wall will keep horny sheep out, you will need high tensile sheep wire and two strands of barbed wire on top. Dept won't give owners details and it all depends on who owns the animals when it comes to how the department of agriculture deals with complaints. Can you approach the farmer that was looking for the sheep and ask him/her to go halves putting up stakes and wire. Could put it on their side of wall and stone wall would block view of wire, you could say that you don't want to report but want to stop trespass. If that doesn't work, pictures of tag numbers (you'll need more than one) and write to the department of agriculture.
Hope you get sorted without anymore hassle.

You seem to be responding as if I started the thread, I didn't.

It matters very much who is responsible for the fence. It matters enormously.

The dept give owners very clear details about fences via the vet employed by the dept who issues the flock number plus there are checks every time new bounties are applied for or different stages of grants are sought. There are also pictures taken by satellite and farmers need to confirm that the ares shown and outlined in red are the areas their sheep occupy.

There are minimum requirements needed and these are obviously not up to the standard in this case.

If a farmer does not adhere to these rules the farmer is not entitled to bounties.

Why should the person who's land is being trespassed on and damaged by someone else's animals pay half of the cost of fencing in said animals?

The owner of the animals is paid to do this via grants.

It makes no sense whatsoever for someone to offer to pay anything towards these costs and could open up a whole new plethora of problems for the person.

Chisler2

acai berry wrote: »

Have you got the deeds to your property? I agree it seems obvious that boundaries would be the joint responsibiity of both parties. But in my experience, that's not always the case. Re the house I owned, I was surprised to learn that legally, I did not own either boundary on either side of me. The neighbours on both sides of me owned the boundaries and I was in between not owning either boundary. Granted, I maintained my side of the boundries, but I was not in a position to introduce any change to the nature of the boundries, such as changing from a wall to a fence, for example. Granted I'm talking about houses in a city suburb, whereas you're talking about a property in the country.

You seem not in favour of consulting a solicitor, but I'm inclined to think you may have to do that in the end, in order to find out your true legal situation. Disagreements re boundaries can be very touchy, as I've found out. Just saying!

Thank you for those thoughts on my situation and I agree different situations operate on different systems. At one stage in the past I lived in a Victorian terrace house in the south-east of England with long narrow strip gardens at the rear. In that case each property-owner had responsibility for "the boundary fence to the left".............right down the terrace. When the fence to your right looking into the back garden needed maintenance or replacing, it was the responsibility of the neighbour to your immediate right.


I may indeed (and very reluctantly...........life is too short for this palaver) engage a solicitor.



The information, exchanges and advice here have been very helpful in looking at the issue from different perspectives and I thank ye all. Shall post again when the issue is resolved.

Chisler2

Glass fused light wrote: »

I am not saying that the boundary is yours but slow and steady you approach the question in the pub from a local history angle you can circle around slowly till you extract what is or is not owned and by whom.

Ps if you are in a scenic area you could think of organising a course of dry stone wall laying with a stone mason or older men who whould still have the skill etc and link in with the local b&b and business association etc



Slow and steady, you approach the sheep in question by circling around slowly till you have them pointed in the right direction or use a plastic bucket with some feed that will rattle.

A big "thank you" for raising the prospect of a dry-stone walling course led by experienced masons. A great idea with layers and layers of benefit. I started organising today and will post the results though that news may take a year or two.