Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018/2019 [Mod note 31-Aug-18]

Cantona's Collars

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Any team who has won the PL has had a CB pairing who just click and are great partnership.

I have went back to every year of PL and every winners team has a super first choice CB pairing.

Ours are duds at the minute. I defended Jones a lot in past but the man is a accident waiting to happen every time he steps onto the field.

Been disappointed with Smalling development too. In 2011 v Man City he gave one of greatest Defensive displays I saw at OT

He should be England's CB first choice but they're reason he did not make the plane.

Jones has the awareness of Ray Charles when it comes to what's around him.
Smalling just never looks comfortable with the ball at his feet,his default is move forward a few yards then pass the ball backwards,De Gea does more ball distribution than him.

LuckyLloyd

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Hopefully it won't click until he's at a different club. Watching the chance of silverware constantly slip away on him is quite comforting to a United fan.

How comforting do you find current events? Liverpool lost the biggest final in the club game and that allowed for some brief schadenfreude but, like it or not, I don't think it's controversial to suggest that Liverpool fans are enjoying club football a lot more over the past 14 months or so. That's a big part of the issue here - having Mourinho is a grind. Every match and every interview comes with irritants and I don't think a Europa League and second place finish compensates for that consistent grind. Whether it should or not is a different matter, but watching football is a hobby for most people and how they feel about it matters.

ebbsy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How comforting do you find current events? Liverpool lost the biggest final in the club game and that allowed for some brief schadenfreude but, like it or not, I don't think it's controversial to suggest that Liverpool fans are enjoying club football a lot more over the past 14 months or so. That's a big part of the issue here - having Mourinho is a grind. Every match and every interview comes with irritants and I don't think a Europa League and second place finish compensates for that consistent grind. Whether it should or not is a different matter, but watching football is a hobby for most people and how they feel about it matters.

That is why I've stopped watching Ireland.

Fitz*

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Any team who has won the PL has had a CB pairing who just click and are great partnership.

I have went back to every year of PL and every winners team has a super first choice CB pairing.

9 games in a row now the United CB pairing has changed iirc.

At some point, Jose just have to accept that ye didn't buy Alderweild or Maguire, and just get a settled CB pairing and play them together every other week and get familiar with each other. Constant chopping and changing does not help, but that is for both CB pairing and also defensive formations and set ups. Bailly is the main man one week and then not even in the squad the next week and Smalling comes in after not playing for weeks and is expected to come in, hit the ground running and be brilliant (even after he knows that the manger wants him replaced).

Liam McPoyle

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How comforting do you find current events? Liverpool lost the biggest final in the club game and that allowed for some brief schadenfreude but, like it or not, I don't think it's controversial to suggest that Liverpool fans are enjoying club football a lot more over the past 14 months or so. That's a big part of the issue here - having Mourinho is a grind. Every match and every interview comes with irritants and I don't think a Europa League and second place finish compensates for that consistent grind. Whether it should or not is a different matter, but watching football is a hobby for most people and how they feel about it matters.

I dont think anyone would say they are happy with current events but to flip your question, for all the sexy kloppball it has proven completely fruitless to date. How long would you be happy for that to continue ie, play attractive footy but win nothing?

Its easy for LFC fans to say that winning trophies like the EL or league cup isnt enough to compensate for alot of dour performances or Jose moaning but the option of winning things ugly is damn sight better than winning absolutely nothing sexily. The winners will be remembered, the losers will only ever be remembered as the losers except to the fans desperately trying to take something, anything, out of another season of failure.

JaMarcus

Maybe I'm on my own, but I'd rather be playing attractive football and winning nothing rather than playing horrendous football and winning the Europa or League cups.

Football is a hobby, I watch it to be entertained. Apart from the opening 4 or 5 games last season, I haven't been entertained by United in years.

As a fan, you watch 50 odd games a season. I'd rather be somewhat entertained during them than celebrate some stupid Mickey Mouse trophy for a couple of hours before forgetting about it.

I suppose there's an argument to be made for boring football that grinds out results, but we're not even doing that anymore.

So yeah, I'm massively skeptical of anyone who claims they'd rather José over Klopp because of his winning pedigree. I suspect it's a case of "better not let the Liverpool fans get one over on me" for a lot of those people.

And the talk of "winners are remembered, losers are forgotten" is bollox. That matters to the players, not the fans. No one will remember the fans of either. All you should want as a fan is to enjoy watching football once or twice a week. A winning legacy only applies to managers, coaches and players. When I'm on my death bed, if someone were to ask me "Did you enjoy spending 3 hours a week watching boring football, shouting at the telly and complaining online?", I'm hardly going to answer "No, but at least we won the Europa League....."

xtal191

If its a choice between defensive football and winning/challenging for major trophies like the Premier League, Champions League every year or playing exciting football, winning nothing and challenging for 4th. Well then I'd 100% pick winning/challenging for major trophies, the problem is we're not close to doing either.

Cookiemunster

FitzShane wrote: »

9 games in a row now the United CB pairing has changed iirc.

Do the first two games of the season where the same two CBs played not count?

LuckyLloyd

bucketybuck wrote: »

Because the 3rd year thing was always a myth not supported by the evidence? It has been repeated so much that people now believe its true but that doesn't change the reality.

Any objective assessment of Mourinhos career would show that the 3rd year thing isn't really true, but then objective assessments of anything to do with Mourinho are thin on the ground. Blows up the third year, only plays defensive, his teams don't score goals, he doesn't play youth players, he only buys older players, myth after myth when it comes to Mourinho and most fan have no interest in hearing any different.

Here's the record in all its glory (and it is glorious for the most part):

Porto:

Year one - took over a team that finished 5th, finished 3rd in the league
Year two - won the league and UEFA Cup
Year three - won the league and European Cup and left

Chelsea:

Year one - took over a team that had finished second in the league and lost in the European Cup semi finals and won the league, won the league cup and lost in the European Cup semis to Liverpool
Year two - won the league again
Year three - second in the league and lost again in the European Cup semis to Liverpool before winning the FA Cup
Year four - sacked after a disastrous start to the season

Inter:

Year one - took over a team that had won the league and got to the last 16 in the European Cup and emulated that feat
Year two - Won it all

Real Madrid:

Year one - took over a team that had finished second and got to the last 16 in Europe and finished second, got to the semi finals in Europe and won the Spanish Cup
Year two - won the league and lost in the semis in Europe again
Year three - finished second in the league, runners up in the Spanish Cup and yet again was beaten in the semis of the European Cup. Massive unrest in the dressing room exacerbated by questionable media handling as the season progressed. Returning for a fourth season was not an option.

Chelsea:

Year one - took over a team that had finished 3rd in the league and won the UEFA Cup to a third place finish and semi finals of the European Cup
Year two - won the league and league cup
Year three - fiery abyss, sacked in the late autumn

Utd:

Year one - took over a team that had finished 5th and won the FA Cup and finished 6th in the league, winning the league and UEFA Cups
Year two - finished second in the league and lost in the last 16 in Europe
Year three - ?

============

Year three blow ups are not a common theme, though they've manifested to varying extents in his last two jobs. Some common points we can extract though:

- he's never lasted beyond three years bar a couple of months in year four during his first go round at Chelsea
- he's never failed to win a league in one of the first two years before this spell at Utd
- Utd were the weakest squad he had ever inherited, bar his first job at Porto when he was younger and with ideas revolutionary for the time
- his achievements are arguably on a downward trend from one job to the next, though the scenarios are becoming more difficult

So the third year thing isn't true, but there's nothing in his record that indicates he's a man for the long haul and everything in his record to make high expectations over his first two years quite reasonable.

bucketybuck wrote: »

The irony today of course is that United have created a situation that is only going to re-inforce that narrative. They decided to pull their support at the time it was most needed and now things are only going to end one way. And when it does people will point to the year 3 thing and say "I told you so", all the while ignoring the reasons why it ended that way.

Mourinho will be odds against to ever win the European Cup again, and likely will never win the Spanish / English league again the rest of his career. Those who want to will pick over the nuances of his third year in Real and Utd and what might have been had he and his superiors taken different tacks at different junctures. But it will be one for the anoraks, up there with what ifs regarding Benitez at Liverpool.

Mourinho makes life hard for himself. He wants expensive players with no onsale value. He makes lots of negative noises with the media. His football is becoming perceived as dated. And he falls out with players over and over and over. He deserves his fate.

Fitz*

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Do the first two games of the season where the same two CBs played not count?

I was taking the 9 games stat from the internet..... never trust the internet!

Maybe it is only once the same CB pairing has started 2 games in a row?

LuckyLloyd

Business Cat wrote: »

I dont think anyone would say they are happy with current events but to flip your question, for all the sexy kloppball it has proven completely fruitless to date. How long would you be happy for that to continue ie, play attractive footy but win nothing?

Its easy for LFC fans to say that winning trophies like the EL or league cup isnt enough to compensate for alot of dour performances or Jose moaning but the option of winning things ugly is damn sight better than winning absolutely nothing sexily. The winners will be remembered, the losers will only ever be remembered as the losers except to the fans desperately trying to take something, anything, out of another season of failure.

I don't consider a European Cup final or reestablishment in the top four as "fruitless". The vast majority of Liverpool fans don't. I'd expect opinions to start shifting once he approaches a half decade in the job.

The second paragraph is in the realms of rhetoric ultimately. You only need to be a brief visitor to either thread on this forum over the past two years to work out which fanbase is enjoying their football and consistently feeling good, feeling strong. There's no sense of "desperation" amongst Liverpool fans. The football and the effect of the football involving being back at the top table in Europe are very tangible indeed.

LuckyLloyd

ebbsy wrote: »

That is why I've stopped watching Ireland.

I do understand that. I'm hanging in there because I don't think the playing pool has the talent or are selling anyone short, but I understand why people are checking out.

Liam McPoyle

JaMarcus wrote: »

Maybe I'm on my own, but I'd rather be playing attractive football and winning nothing rather than playing horrendous football and winning the Europa or League cups.

Football is a hobby, I watch it to be entertained. Apart from the opening 4 or 5 games last season, I haven't been entertained by United in years.

As a fan, you watch 50 odd games a season. I'd rather be somewhat entertained during them than celebrate some stupid Mickey Mouse trophy for a couple of hours before forgetting about it.

I suppose there's an argument to be made for boring football that grinds out results, but we're not even doing that anymore.

So yeah, I'm massively skeptical of anyone who claims they'd rather Josver Klopp because of his winning pedigree. I suspect it's a case of "better not let the Liverpool fans get one over on me" for a lot of those people.

And the talk of "winners are remembered, losers are forgotten" is bollox. That matters to the players, not the fans. No one will remember the fans of either. All you should want as a fan is to enjoy watching football once or twice a week. A winning legacy only applies to managers, coaches and players. When I'm on my death bed, if someone were to ask me "Did you enjoy spending 3 hours a week watching boring football, shouting at the telly and complaining online?", I'm hardly going to answer "No, but at least we won the Europa League....."

As United fans we have been spoiled in that we have seen two decades of domestic dominance. Am I happy to see drab football played most of the time? Not a bit of it, however I know that its not where the club will be in the long term so I can accept it. We have been a shyt show since SAF left, it was always going to happen so this is part of the cycle of change. There is no doubt in my mind that we are not going to go another 20 years before we win a league title again, the club is in a transitional period and will be probably for at least 2 or 3 years more.

I want to see United challenging and winning the big two trophies but the reality is that we are a ways away from that currently so things like the EL or league cup are acceptable until we get the right man in. Its becoming more apparent that Jose is not that man, he has not really moved with the times and has been bypassed tactically by the likes of Klopp or Pep.

Gun to the head right this second I would probably take Klopp over Jose and I have no issue saying that. He is obviously a very good coach and his players really buy into his philosophy however I will say that he is not under any real pressure at LFC. If they were to fall outside of the top 4 he wont lose his job, the same cant be said for Jose. He has spent a huge amount of money (relative to club size, turnover etc) so if they go another season without any silverware then questions will rightly be asked.

Arsenal played some super stuff over the last decade but only got a few cups out of it and you only need to have read the Arsenal thread in here to see the frustration in the fans.

One thing for certain is, crap football and no returns is not acceptable. We are already well off the pace of a top 4 place so if that continues Jose wont see Halloween.

bangkok

i go to old trafford to be entertained.

i watch man utd on tele to be entertained

chances are if you are playing good football you are winning games.

Going out and sitting back against smaller teams and hoping to hit them on the break is unacceptable, should be taking the game to them, hounding them, dominating possession and creating lots of chances

Sport is about enjoyment, not only winning.

I played sport for the enjoyment as do most people, winning comes along the way

Happy players are generally confident players, theres no way the current man utd squad is happy playing the football they are being asked to play

Liam McPoyle

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I don't consider a European Cup final or reestablishment in the top four as "fruitless". The vast majority of Liverpool fans don't. I'd expect opinions to start shifting once he approaches a half decade in the job.

The second paragraph is in the realms of rhetoric ultimately. You only need to be a brief visitor to either thread on this forum over the past two years to work out which fanbase is enjoying their football and consistently feeling good, feeling strong. There's no sense of "desperation" amongst Liverpool fans. The football and the effect of the football involving being back at the top table in Europe are very tangible indeed.

I didnt think it needed spelling out but by fruitless I mean not actually winning anything. Losing finals and securing top 4 for consecutive years is grand if you have a low base of expectation I suppose. You boys consistently mocked Arsenal and the "top 4 trophy" but now its something to be lauded?

Ok.

You can call it rhetoric if it pleases you, it doesn't make it any less true.

LuckyLloyd

Business Cat wrote: »

I didnt think it needed spelling out but by fruitless I mean not actually winning anything. Losing finals and securing top 4 for consecutive years is grand if you have a low base of expectation I suppose. You boys consistently mocked Arsenal and the "top 4 trophy" but now its something to be lauded?

Ok.

You can call it rhetoric if it pleases you, it doesn't make it any less true.

Arsenal went 12 years from appearing in a European Final to consecutive failures to qualify for the European Cup. All that time without a genuine title challenge, and seven years in a row losing in the last 16 in March. Klopp hasn't come near that sort of malaise and you know it. If he does reach that sort of point, the conversation will be the same. And rightly so.

You only need to look at the replies to your post from other ardent Utd fans on here. Don't take my word for it, take what your own fans are saying to you. Your binary black and white view is not widely shared.

TitianGerm

Business Cat wrote: »

I didnt think it needed spelling out but by fruitless I mean not actually winning anything. Losing finals and securing top 4 for consecutive years is grand if you have a low base of expectation I suppose. You boys consistently mocked Arsenal and the "top 4 trophy" but now its something to be lauded?

Ok.

You can call it rhetoric if it pleases you, it doesn't make it any less true.

Second consecutive Top 4 since 07/08 and 08/09. Only made Top 4 four times since 07/08.

Yes a CL final and a consecutive CL qualification was a decenct season. Especially when we play such an attractive style of football.

fatherted1969

JaMarcus wrote: »

Maybe I'm on my own, but I'd rather be playing attractive football and winning nothing rather than playing horrendous football and winning the Europa or League cups.

Football is a hobby, I watch it to be entertained. Apart from the opening 4 or 5 games last season, I haven't been entertained by United in years.

As a fan, you watch 50 odd games a season. I'd rather be somewhat entertained during them than celebrate some stupid Mickey Mouse trophy for a couple of hours before forgetting about it.

I suppose there's an argument to be made for boring football that grinds out results, but we're not even doing that anymore.

So yeah, I'm massively skeptical of anyone who claims they'd rather José over Klopp because of his winning pedigree. I suspect it's a case of "better not let the Liverpool fans get one over on me" for a lot of those people.

And the talk of "winners are remembered, losers are forgotten" is bollox. That matters to the players, not the fans. No one will remember the fans of either. All you should want as a fan is to enjoy watching football once or twice a week. A winning legacy only applies to managers, coaches and players. When I'm on my death bed, if someone were to ask me "Did you enjoy spending 3 hours a week watching boring football, shouting at the telly and complaining online?", I'm hardly going to answer "No, but at least we won the Europa League....."

But yet I've great memories of watching Ireland in the late 80s/early 90s when they had incredible players but played absolute ****e football. That Liverpool team that won the champions league under Benitiz was by no means an expansive side but ask any Liverpool fan and they'll treasure that win and rightly so. Point is it's nice to play great football but it's nice to actually win something too.

I think in the main our squad isn't as terrible as I'm seeing but I genuinely believe that for whatever reason they ar ent performing for Mourinho.

Mitch Connor

I really don't understand the flack Klopp is getting from some in here.

Klopp has needed to go step by step in the process of improvement. Throughout that process he has ensured a consistent style and ethos, and improved the players in the system, mostly through purchase (but so what).

He took over a side that were inconsistent.

He has turned them into a side that arguable play the best football in the country and are best placed to challenge City, a side built on vast sums of money. They've spent roughly similar to United in the market - and have, imo, surpassed United as City's main rival for the title, and got to the CL final last year while United got humiliated by Seville.

Does he need to win something? Maybe. Winning the title will remain hard, not winning is not a failure imo. Not winning the CL is also not a failure imo, as long as you perform and show you can compete - Cup football is tough to make a must win. Would anyone really care if they won the league cup? Would it be seen as justification for the money spent? I would say no. I reckon people would care a bit more about the FA Cup but not to a huge extent.

If Klopp has liverpool playing entertaining football, the fans enjoy 99% of their matches and he turns them into genuine title contenders (as he has done, imo - but it does remain to be seen).... I don't see how any more could really be asked of him. If that is what we were getting from jose I would be delighted. With Jose, as of now (imo) we play rubbish football and will have to battle hard to make top 4. CL? Forget about it, we'll be schooled by the first side with competence we come across.

Liam McPoyle

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Arsenal went 12 years from appearing in a European Final to consecutive failures to qualify for the European Cup. All that time without a genuine title challenge, and seven years in a row losing in the last 16 in March. Klopp hasn't come near that sort of malaise and you know it. If he does reach that sort of point, the conversation will be the same. And rightly so.

You only need to look at the replies to your post from other ardent Utd fans on here. Don't take my word for it, take what your own fans are saying to you. Your binary black and white view is not widely shared.

Like I said, lower base of expectations.

Why would I possibly care what anyone else thinks, it's my view, there is no hive mind. Do you change your own opinions because people disagree with you? You do in your hat.

Trigger

I suppose I will have to turn in my membership and stop going to Dalymount now as I shouldn’t be supporting a team that’s **** :pac:

fatherted1969

JaMarcus wrote: »

Maybe I'm on my own, but I'd rather be playing attractive football and winning nothing rather than playing horrendous football and winning the Europa or League cups.

Football is a hobby, I watch it to be entertained. Apart from the opening 4 or 5 games last season, I haven't been entertained by United in years.

As a fan, you watch 50 odd games a season. I'd rather be somewhat entertained during them than celebrate some stupid Mickey Mouse trophy for a couple of hours before forgetting about it.

I suppose there's an argument to be made for boring football that grinds out results, but we're not even doing that anymore.

So yeah, I'm massively skeptical of anyone who claims they'd rather José over Klopp because of his winning pedigree. I suspect it's a case of "better not let the Liverpool fans get one over on me" for a lot of those people.

And the talk of "winners are remembered, losers are forgotten" is bollox. That matters to the players, not the fans. No one will remember the fans of either. All you should want as a fan is to enjoy watching football once or twice a week. A winning legacy only applies to managers, coaches and players. When I'm on my death bed, if someone were to ask me "Did you enjoy spending 3 hours a week watching boring football, shouting at the telly and complaining online?", I'm hardly going to answer "No, but at least we won the Europa League....."

But yet I've great memories of watching Ireland in the late 80s/early 90s when they had incredible players but played absolute ****e football. That Liverpool team that won the champions league under Benitiz was by no means an expansive side but ask any Liverpool fan and they'll treasure that win and rightly so. Point is it's nice to play great football but it's nice to actually win something too.

I think in the main our squad isn't as terrible as I'm seeing but I genuinely believe that for whatever reason they ar ent performing for Mourinho.

I think at the moment Liverpool fans are in the Spurs fans way of thinking. They are happy to be seen as back in amongst the big competitions and playing nice football. There will come a time where that won't be enough and a FA cup final win with a goal in the 1st minute off someones arse and then battered for 89 will be very quickly forgotten for a trophy. I get what your saying but I don't really believe it. In Jose Mourinho's time at Utd he's won as many trophies as Liverpool and Spurs have combined in the last 10 years or more. Which would you rather ?

yourdeadwright

Klopp flack is laughable, He has improved Liverpool every season so far,
He lost his 3 cup finals, should they have been in nay of them ?
Lost to mega bucks City on Pens after what 8 months at the club with none of his own players,
Lost to Madrid 2 times champions at that stage in the Champions league final no one would have given them a chance of being in, The keeper had a nightmare hardly Jürgen's fault,
Sevilla the one I expected them to win but again they had won it 2 year on the bounce, but we should have beaten them

Liam McPoyle

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Klopp flack is laughable, He has improved Liverpool every season so far,
He lost his 3 cup finals, should they have been in nay of them ?
Lost to mega bucks City on Pens after what 8 months at the club with none of his own players,
Lost to Madrid 2 times champions at that stage in the Champions league final no one would have given them a chance of being in, The keeper had a nightmare hardly Jürgen's fault,
Sevilla the one I expected them to win but again they had won it 2 year on the bounce, but we should have beaten them

Flack?

I know some of you lads are of a sensitive disposition but if you think my comments are "flack" then there is no hope.

I have said he is a very good coach.

I have said I would most likely take him ahead of Jose as manager of United.

Anything else I have said is true.

I know its not the done thing with most of you lads to question anything about him but luckily I dont subscribe to the church of Jurgen.

yourdeadwright

Business Cat wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Klopp flack is laughable, He has improved Liverpool every season so far,
He lost his 3 cup finals, should they have been in nay of them ?
Lost to mega bucks City on Pens after what 8 months at the club with none of his own players,
Lost to Madrid 2 times champions at that stage in the Champions league final no one would have given them a chance of being in, The keeper had a nightmare hardly Jürgen's fault,
Sevilla the one I expected them to win but again they had won it 2 year on the bounce, but we should have beaten them

Flack?

I know some of you lads are of a sensitive disposition but if you think my comments are "flack" then there is no hope.

I have said he is a very good coach.

I have said I would most likely take him ahead of Jose as manager of United.

Anything else I have said is true.

I know its not the done thing with most of you lads to question anything about him but luckily I dont subscribe to the church of Jurgen.

All coaches/mangers make mistake Jurgen is no different,
I have to say I'm just impressed because we have literally improved season on season which is all you can ask for but with that improvement there will come the stage where you need to win something to continue improving and that time may be now,
I still think it would be a great achievement for whoever finishes second this year as I just can't see anyone matching City,

54and56

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If Klopp has liverpool playing entertaining football, the fans enjoy 99% of their matches and he turns them into genuine title contenders (as he has done, imo - but it does remain to be seen).... I don't see how any more could really be asked of him.

This 100%.

Playing football that is attacking but also effective defensively is what makes me want to watch each and every match, it entertains me.

From a business and long term club development viewpoint that is very important as it engages the existing fanbase and attracts new fans which in turn grows revenue and ultimately leads to more investment in the team.

When exciting football intersects with genuinely competing for the PL and CL you have the best of both worlds and that is what Klopp has been consistently building towards. It doesn't mean he'll win the PL or CL this year, there are many variables outside his control but the squad, management, ownership and fanbase can all see he has a clear strategy and they are all 100% supportive of him. If that results in a trophy this year great but if it doesn't and he continues to build and strive for that success then what would there be to gained by "asking questions" of him or piling up pressure on him? It would be totally counter productive.

Klopp will easily get another 3-4 years providing the team are playing entertaining AND effective football and are genuine contenders for the PL and can go deep into the CL. Top 4 will increasingly become a minimum requirement and not a target in itself but it should always be acknowledged as a milestone of success as there will always be other clubs with significant resources who don't make it e.g. Arsenal and Chelsea last year.

To get this back on topic here:-

Klopp has a clearly defined playing style which the players, fans and owners are 100% behind and really enjoy which is aligned with a long term strategy to be genuine contenders for the PL and CL on a consistent basis and he has made huge progress towards that goal since his arrival in Oct 2015.

Mourinho on the other hand is not employing a style of football which either the players or fans seem to enjoy and despite success in his first year winning the EL and LC followed by achieving 2nd place in the PL last year it doesn't appear that he has the support of the owners to invest in the squad.

He is therefore caught in a limbo where the team hasn't really advanced much since the end of last season (Fred in for the retiring Carrick) so it's hard to see how he can improve on last years result of coming 2nd or even tread water and deliver 2nd again this year when Liverpool have strengthened significantly and Spurs, who came 3rd last year behind Utd and didn't sign anyone but appear to be an even tighter well balanced unit this year, just doled out a 3 goal thrashing at OT.

Is Mourinho's goal for the season to move up one place better than last year and win the PL + a deeper run the CL? How can that be expected with such few additions to the squad which finished 2nd and were thrashed by Seville? Do the owners think there is significantly more to be gotten out of the likes of Sanchez, Rashford, Lukaku, Martial, Bailly, Lindelof and Pogba etc and are basically telling him that before he goes spending more money replacing these players he first of all needs to get them playing to their potential? Why else would they not back him yet not sack him? It doesn't make either football or commercial sense.

If so that's a fairly big test of Mourinho's man management skills, something which he isn't famous for.

Liam McPoyle

yourdeadwright wrote: »

All coaches/mangers make mistake Jurgen is no different,
I have to say I'm just impressed because we have literally improved season on season which is all you can ask for but with that improvement there will come the stage where you need to win something to continue improving and that time may be now,
I still think it would be a great achievement for whoever finishes second this year as I just can't see anyone matching City,

United have improved every season under Jose - 2 trophies in year one, second place finish last year.

Yes, the football hasn't been easy on the eye in the main yet the thread has been inundated with visitors trying to tear him down.

It's the height of hyprocisy.

yourdeadwright

Business Cat wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

All coaches/mangers make mistake Jurgen is no different,
I have to say I'm just impressed because we have literally improved season on season which is all you can ask for but with that improvement there will come the stage where you need to win something to continue improving and that time may be now,
I still think it would be a great achievement for whoever finishes second this year as I just can't see anyone matching City,

United have improved every season under Jose - 2 trophies in year one, second place finish last year.

Yes, the football hasn't been easy on the eye in the main yet the thread has been inundated with visitors trying to tear him down.

It's the height of hyprocisy.

I Know iv been saying its crazy to want him out at this stage,
But the one thing people will say if has his football improved, they seem to have no direction , every week its a guess who of who will play and what shape, There doesn't seem to be a plan for evolving , you cant see what type of team they are striving to be,
To be fair Jose rarely has ever had a style he just does what he needs to do to win the game at hand, He is a here and now manger not really worried in the direction of the club just result,
There is no right or wrong way but fans seem to give mangers with a long term plan and style more time

Your Airbag

Business Cat wrote: »

United have improved every season under Jose - 2 trophies in year one, second place finish last year.

Yes, the football hasn't been easy on the eye in the main yet the thread has been inundated with visitors trying to tear him down.

It's the height of hyprocisy.

Others and I have said before we'd gladly take less to no trophies but with attacking positive football. Try leave out the generalisations.

fatherted1969

Your Airbag wrote: »

Business Cat wrote: »

United have improved every season under Jose - 2 trophies in year one, second place finish last year.

Yes, the football hasn't been easy on the eye in the main yet the thread has been inundated with visitors trying to tear him down.

It's the height of hyprocisy.

Others and I have said before we'd gladly take less to no trophies but with attacking positive football. Try leave out the generalisations.

Lol, sometimes that's all you can do

StringerBell

Your Airbag wrote: »

Others and I have said before we'd gladly take less to no trophies but with attacking positive football. Try leave out the generalisations.

Quote the wrong guy?

Liam McPoyle

Your Airbag wrote: »

Others and I have said before we'd gladly take less to no trophies but with attacking positive football. Try leave out the generalisations.

Deadly.

I'll be sure to take note of that in my things I don't care about cabinet.

Your Airbag

Business Cat wrote: »

Deadly.

I'll be sure to take note of that in my things I don't care about cabinet.

Well aren't you cable of mature debates. Good for you.

Cantona's Collars

Business Cat wrote: »

United have improved every season under Jose - 2 trophies in year one, second place finish last year.

Yes, the football hasn't been easy on the eye in the main yet the thread has been inundated with visitors trying to tear him down.

It's the height of hyprocisy.

We should ask these visitors for a look at the trophies their clubs have won recently.

While I'm no fan of the pragmatic style of play,Jose has a lot of clearing out still to do. He could hardly have came in and binned half a squad in one fell swoop.
Ferguson left an aging squad,Moyes and LVG royally fooked things up and left a huge mess to sort.

yourdeadwright

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Business Cat wrote: »

United have improved every season under Jose - 2 trophies in year one, second place finish last year.

Yes, the football hasn't been easy on the eye in the main yet the thread has been inundated with visitors trying to tear him down.

It's the height of hyprocisy.

We should ask these visitors for a look at the trophies their clubs have won recently.

While I'm no fan of the pragmatic style of play,Jose has a lot of clearing out still to do. He could hardly have came in and binned half a squad in one fell swoop.
Ferguson left an aging squad,Moyes and LVG royally fooked things up and left a huge mess to sort.

I think the above is so true, He literally has to improve every department but the GK ,
at United your not afforded the patience of Liverpool or Spurs, Its like the shadow of Fergie looming over everyone, the clubs fan and board where spoiled with such a long dominance , I don't think a club in England will ever do that again not even mega bucks city,

Liam McPoyle

Your Airbag wrote: »

Well aren't you cable of mature debates. Good for you.

Are you suggesting i should, pipe down?

Your Airbag

Business Cat wrote: »

Are you suggesting i should, pipe down?

Are you suggesting your preferred style is immature debates? :pac:



Awesome.

Talisman

Business Cat wrote: »

United have improved every season under Jose - 2 trophies in year one, second place finish last year.

Last season's league finish shouldn't be underestimated - it re-established Man Utd as a top 4 team at the expense of Chelsea.

Ferguson had the good sense to step down before City took a grip on the league. It's now Man City plus three others for the top four. For any team to beat City to the title now will take some degree of good fortune and also a decent squad of players.

Tottenham have been the most consistent also-ran in the bunch with 3 placings in the top 4 over the last 3 seasons. That's also the combined total of Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd for the same period.

It was madness on the part of the Man Utd board not to back Mourinho in the transfer market this summer. They have gambled on the team maintaining the same performance level and also hoping that neither Arsenal nor Chelsea improve sufficiently to surpass Man Utd this season.

Hococop

IITYWYBMAD

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

We should ask these visitors for a look at the trophies their clubs have won recently.

While I'm no fan of the pragmatic style of play,Jose has a lot of clearing out still to do. He could hardly have came in and binned half a squad in one fell swoop.
Ferguson left an aging squad,Moyes and LVG royally fooked things up and left a huge mess to sort.

You're beginning to sound like LFC fans of old, to be honest, living in the past. Well done on your league cup and UEFA cup, it's a good return.

The point is, and you know it, that LFC are playing a progressive and exciting brand of football. UTD tried the same the other night, with their 3331, and it back-fired on them, due to laziness in midfield, incompetence up front and sheer comedy at the back.

Jose has tried to address this, but has been given the 2 fingers by Ed and cannot seem to motivate Pogba, Alexis or Rashford.

Klopp has a well oiled machine at the moment, with a strong spine of players, playing for him and the fans, and looking confident and dangerous. Jose does not.

It doesn't take a genius to work out the happier set of fans and the club with the most potential to put it up to City. It's not Manu, it is Liverpool.

Personally, I think they will fall short this year in the league, but will have another good run in Europe. I agree with the sentiments expressed by both sets of fans here, that Utd have little or no chance in Europe or the league.

A major rebuilding job has to be done and after handing Jose the cheque book over the last couple of years, I can see why the board have clearly stated that he is not the man for the job.

So, I'd be getting used to 2 or 3 more years of this, while the team is rebuilt. My feeling is that Liverpool's next trophy is very near, while Utd's is not. And it'll be sitting nicely beside the multiple major trophies they have won in the past.

StringerBell

Could you imagine if they ever actually won anything

IITYWYBMAD

StringerBell wrote: »

Could you imagine if they ever actually won anything

It'll be interesting all right. I remember the kick I used to get watching mancunians having brain farts at the build up to the CL quarters, semis and final last year, it was incredible. Had they won, I can only imagine the meltdowns in here.

Mitch Connor

yourdeadwright wrote: »

He is a here and now manger not really worried in the direction of the club just result,

I don't like this constant narrative that people have that painst Jose has purely looking at the short term, while at the same time we hear that all the signings we have made have been his signings.

Dalot - 19.
Bailly - 22. (when signed iirc)
Lindelof - 22 (when signed iirc)
Pogba - 23 (when signed iirc)
Fred - 25.
Lukaku - 24 (when signed iirc)

Ibrahimovic - 34, but a short term signing allowing other signings.

Yes, we have also signed other older players - such as Matic and Sanchez, but are is the demand that we only sign players under 25 or 24? That we can't add experience to a squad that lacked it?

Jose is manager at United, is the manager at United going to be afforded time to completely rebuild? Is he going to be backed to do so? His signings have covered ages ranges for short, medium and long term. We are seeing a cluster fck on the pitch, but I don't see how we can argue that he hasn't looked beyond short term.

The_Kew_Tour

It's a Result Business really.

Your winning and people will apply the excuses to justify it and vice versa.

That be Manchester United, Liverpool, Republic Of Ireland

TitianGerm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I don't like this constant narrative that people have that painst Jose has purely looking at the short term, while at the same time we hear that all the signings we have made have been his signings.

Dalot - 19.
Bailly - 22. (when signed iirc)
Lindelof - 22 (when signed iirc)
Pogba - 23 (when signed iirc)
Fred - 25.
Lukaku - 24 (when signed iirc)

Ibrahimovic - 34, but a short term signing allowing other signings.

Yes, we have also signed other older players - such as Matic and Sanchez, but are is the demand that we only sign players under 25 or 24? That we can't add experience to a squad that lacked it?

Jose is manager at United, is the manager at United going to be afforded time to completely rebuild? Is he going to be backed to do so? His signings have covered ages ranges for short, medium and long term. We are seeing a cluster fck on the pitch, but I don't see how we can argue that he hasn't looked beyond short term.

Of those players listed Dalot hasn't played and Fred is only in the door.

Bailey is injured an awful lot and looks way off the pace when he plays.

Lindelof looks like he forgot how to play soccer.

Pogba good in flashes but been average since he signed.

Lukaku generally good to very good but has a tendency to miss a lot of important chances.

Are those four signings you can build the backbone of a team around?

LuckyLloyd

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

It's a Result Business really.

Your winning and people will apply the excuses to justify it and vice versa.

That be Manchester United, Liverpool, Republic Of Ireland

Absolutely true. You certainly can choose to help yourself and give yourself wiggle room for when you're not however - and Jose has never chosen to do that.

54and56

StringerBell wrote: »

Could you imagine if they ever actually won anything

Indeed, does super fan Paul have another gear???

Mitch Connor

TitianGerm wrote: »

Of those players listed Dalot hasn't played and Fred is only in the door.

Bailey is injured an awful lot and looks way off the pace when he plays.

Lindelof looks like he forgot how to play soccer.

Pogba good in flashes but been average since he signed.

Lukaku generally good to very good but has a tendency to miss a lot of important chances.

Are those four signings you can build the backbone of a team around?

None of those things actually matter though, at all. It isn't a discussion about results, it is a discussion of intent, of care.

Did he sign them thinking they were going to be rubbish?

The only thing that matters is the age range of his signings are really all you could want for.

TitianGerm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

None of those things actually matter though, at all. It isn't a discussion about results, it is a discussion of intent, of care.

Did he sign them thinking they were going to be rubbish?

The only thing that matters is the age range of his signings are really all you could want for.

It doesn't matter how young or old they are if they aren't good enough to play for the club.

StringerBell

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

It'll be interesting all right. I remember the kick I used to get watching mancunians having brain farts at the build up to the CL quarters, semis and final last year, it was incredible. Had they won, I can only imagine the meltdowns in here.

Not at all, people will simply call you all child molesters and the like, the thread will be locked and you will all be banned for upsetting the regulars in their emotional time.

Still, I feel safe enough it won't be happening anytime soon.