Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018/2019 [Mod note 31-Aug-18]

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Faulty logic, a bad or poor signing is a mistake happens all the time in football but to continue on with it instead of fixing it when you have the money to do so is just compounding the mistake.

If you dont trust the manager to spend more money then move him on.

I think it is reasonable for any club to expect a manager to get more from his expensive signings.

It is not as binary as either giving him more to spend or sacking him.

Bad signings happen, but you go through Mourinho's United signings and how many of them do you feel have been successful? Matic was a fantastic signing last season, so he deserves credit for that. But the jury is out on all the rest.

AidoEirE

Why was mctominey put in a back three. Surely if your playing that youd have jones in there

bangkok

AidoEirE wrote: »

Why was mctominey put in a back three. Surely if your playing that youd have jones in there

Or bailly who was sitting on the bench.

Awful setup today, regardless of whats going on in the club as a whole, jose's setup today was crazy. No matter how bad sanchez/lingard have been playing they should have been on the bench

awec

Also, maybe I am wrong, but if Mourinho picked McTominay at centre half today to make a point then that is completely unacceptable. To pick him there when Bailly is on the bench is questionable.

ericzeking

Wrt being backed in the last window. Mourinho wanted to buy a centre back...a new centre back wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to how lethargic we are in general.

Actually I am wrong...it would have made the difference that he might have not spent the past 3 months moaning about transfers and the inadequacy of his squad and creating a generally negative atmosphere around the team.

The rubbish we see on the pitch is a manifestation of the atmosphere created by the manager.

One small thing I thought about today...just make DDG the captain....he plays every week and his performances give him authority. Leadership is an issue, the team has no structure or hierarchy, that isn't helped by a different player wearing the armband every week.

BenK

The argument as to who else is out there if Jose gets the sack seems very narrow minded.

I don't have a widespread knowledge of European football but I can't believe there's no manager out there capable of getting more out of the current set of players.

I don't think it has to be an experienced big name as that's a mistake we seem to make often enough when trying to sign players.

I think a manager with a serious hunger to take the next step in his career is very important. I think both LVG and Jose to an extent are managers who lost a bit of the hunger needed to succeed at this level.

Zeek12

awec wrote: »

Karius cost 5 million.

I'm sure if Mourinho had bought two 5 million centre halves he'd have been allowed to buy another one.

You go through Klopp's Liverpool signings and there have been a few duds alright, but the difference is they were dirt cheap. Mourinho has expensive flops, that's his problem.

Very good point.
The expensive signings Klopp made have all been really shrewd and successful.
Only the cheap ones have been duds.

Salah
Mane
Van Dijk
Wignaldum

Alisson already looks very good.

Too early to say for some of their midfield signings this summer.

Compare that to some of ours:

Lukaka: Hot/cold
Pogba: Skillful but a Trouble maker
Mikhi: Flop
Bailly: Flop
Lindelof: Flop
Sanchez: Disaster
Matic: Solid
Fred: Early days...but already struggling to hold his place in team

Rossi IRL

awec wrote: »

Also, maybe I am wrong, but if Mourinho picked McTominay at centre half today to make a point then that is completely unacceptable. To pick him there when Bailly is on the bench is questionable.

Couldn't agree more and I made a similar point a few weeks ago after the Spurs game when Herrera started CB.

If only he would focus more on gaining points on the pitch instead of trying to make points off it, maybe we would be better off.

bangkok

Id say the club are currently trying to find a club to sell sanchez to in january. He will go down as one of our worst signings

Strumms

BenK wrote: »

The argument as to who else is out there if Jose gets the sack seems very narrow minded.

I don't have a widespread knowledge of European football but I can't believe there's no manager out there capable of getting more out of the current set of players.

I don't think it has to be an experienced big name as that's a mistake we seem to make often enough when trying to sign players.

.

It’s not narrow minded. In fact it’s crucial as to possible decision making. For any organization such as United the goal of active ‘succession planning’ is imperative. Especially in this type of fast moving business /sport. As we are talking here there will be some type of list somewhere which will outline possible targets, of that I have no doubt. Their availability and when to call time on Jose is the only questions that perhaps need to be in alignment before the trigger is pulled so to speak.

awec

bangkok wrote: »

Id say the club are currently trying to find a club to sell sanchez to in january. He will go down as one of our worst signings

Who'd be stupid enough to pay his wages?

Liam McPoyle

It's clear that Jose is not the man for us at this stage.

Terribly disappointing as I genuinely thought we had gotten the right man at the right time with him.

It's painfully obvious that he is not getting the best out of what he has but saying that, it does not exonerate self obsessed prima donnas like Pogba, I hope to fcuk he he drummed out of the club at the next possible juncture. Fergie often said that no player is bigger than the club and this spoiled brat is no different.

Gtfo.

bangkok

awec wrote: »

Who'd be stupid enough to pay his wages?

Theres always some club, only thing is considering his wages are so high his transfer fee would be small

BenK

Strumms wrote: »

BenK wrote: »

The argument as to who else is out there if Jose gets the sack seems very narrow minded.

I don't have a widespread knowledge of European football but I can't believe there's no manager out there capable of getting more out of the current set of players.

I don't think it has to be an experienced big name as that's a mistake we seem to make often enough when trying to sign players.

.

It’s not narrow minded. In fact it’s crucial as to possible decision making. For any organization such as United the goal of active ‘succession planning’ is imperative. Especially in this type of fast moving business /sport. As we are talking here there will be some type of list somewhere which will outline possible targets, of that I have no doubt. Their availability and when to call time on Jose is the only questions that perhaps need to be in alignment before the trigger is pulled so to speak.

I mean narrow minded in the sense that I hope whatever list is there doesn't just contain the obvious big names and that there is a clear thought process to whatever names are there (which I am doubtful of).

Turtwig

awec wrote: »

Who'd be stupid enough to pay his wages?

Take your pick of Chinese clubs.

Liam McPoyle

Turtwig wrote: »

Take your pick of Chinese clubs.

Is it just in the transfer fee that the tariff applies to? Ie if we sold him for 20m the buying club would only have to pay 20m of a tariff but could pay him what ever they wanted? It's about the only way we'd get him out, understandable from his pov. I would like to see him given the rest of the season under a different manager though.

DM_7

The club should not be taking decisions about moving players on unless of course Jose is staying and it was his request.

Anything else would be more of the same from last summer that played a large part in the bad season start.

I'm not happy with Mourinho, I'm not happy with the players, but Ed Woodward has presided over 5 seasons of mostly disappointment. Now in the 6th season, it's really time his position was considered. Not a hope though, not once he's making bank for the Glazers.

This is some shít show.

Zeek12

awec wrote: »

Mourinho's biggest success this season so far has been convincing so many people that he hasn't been backed by the club.

This is kind of what annoys me about the lads who keep shouting "back or sack him".

To the best of our knowledge, he wanted Maguire...and £70+M was made available by the club to get him.

But Leicester said No. Which they're completely entitled to do of course.

But even if sigend, would he have solved the problems were seeing with this team anyway?
Doubt it.

A CB cant help attacking players with no belief, no confidence...and a team that plays with no fluency and no attacking identity.

Guys like Sandro and Godin were never going to join United anyway.
That was pipe dream stuff.

StringerBell

Back him or sack him was a very reasonable position to take in the summer.

Very poor result today, I don't care who your manager is you play for the badge or you don't escape criticism.

Sack the manager, keep playing that manager roulette and hope one sticks. I won't lose any sleep if Mourinho goes, but to scapegoat him and pretend the latest flavour of the month will magically turn certain players into consistent high level performers is setting yourself up for the same fall as when Jose was supposed to wave the magic wand after the van gaal experiment.

The club needs a long term vision, the longer it goes the more you see the tone coming from the top is not right, there is no vision that runs through the club. This should have been a season to build on the best league campaign since fergie. The title challenge was over before a ball was kicked. That says a lot about the ambition of the higher ups.

If you have a long term strategy and Mourinho is part of that, with trophies and a second place finish under his belt you get him what he says he needs to win the title. No bull****, it's not like you just identify one player for each position and that's it. If one is unattainable, move on. Get the job done.

If Mourinho is not part of the long term vision for the club then sack him, don't arse around and waste a year pissing everyone off while displaying this ridiculous inability to take decisive action. The decision should have been clear in the summer and no amount of obfuscation will change that.

What you have is a sit on the fence job and it is running through the club. I'm not even going to get in to the personnel issues cause I'll be here all night.

The manager needs to find a way to adapt to what he has and get more from them. If he can't do that, when what he is doing isn't working then he isn't the top level coach he very clearly is. For whatever reason it isn't working, he needs to fix that or he's toast. I do believe hevis actually trying though which is more than I can say for some of those players.

You don't play for a manager, you play for a club, you play for a set of fans, you play for your own sense of professional pride. You are cheating the fans most of all when you don't give your all for the cause and do your very best for the team once you cross on to that pitch.

There is too much blame to be spread around to scapegoat one particular person but for my money regardless of who the manager is a change in direction is needed from the top down. A clear identity and a vision for what the club wants to do long term and just go with that. If it takes short term pain and failure so be it, stick to a course of action. Don't get jumpy if it doesn't go right straight away and trust the plan.

City have done it, Barcelona have it, Juventus, Bayern, hell Liverpool are doing it, United wants to keep itself at the top table of European football and keep the money coming in long term (which is the ultimate goal of the owners let's be honest) you have to think longer term and don't **** the bag if it doesn't achieve results straight away once you are making the right steps and the progression is clear.

The worrying part as a fan is that the board seem perfectly happy with the state of things, happy to be a top four team with champions league football while slipping further from genuine challenges at top honours.

Is he gone yet?

pjohnson

Zeek12 wrote: »

This is kind of what annoys me about the lads who keep shouting "back or sack him".

To the best of our knowledge, he wanted Maguire...and £70+M was made available by the club to get him.

But Leicester said No. Which they're completely entitled to do of course.

But even if sigend, would he have solved the problems were seeing with this team anyway?
Doubt it.

A CB cant help attacking players with no belief, no confidence...and a team that plays with no fluency and no attacking identity.

Guys like Sandro and Godin were never going to join United anyway.
That was pipe dream stuff.

Just in general I notice that yes for the most part defenders dont help with attacking play. They do however help with defending. Which is despite what most seem to think also an important part of the game.

Trigger

pjohnson wrote: »

Just in general I notice that yes for the most part defenders dont help with attacking play. They do however help with defending. Which is despite what most seem to think also an important part of the game.

Just a general point, not about Harry Maguire.. Well they can, in the case of CB's, play quick transitions from defense to Midfield/attack or move with the the ball out of the line to open up space by drawing opposition away from your players. In the case of FB(who are defenders too ) creating width is essential to the attacking element of the game, in essence quality defenders are a big element of attack too in most set ups these days

Lord TSC

Just to check.

When Martial and Pogba have been poor for United over the course of two years, it's Jose's fault.

But when Sanchez has been poor for 10 months (after joining as we started to struggle all over), then he needs shipping off to China asap?

If we do sack Jose, then Sanchez should probably be given at least the rest of the season to see if the issue is with him or tactics. But it strikes me some people are having their cake and eating it too, wanting to blame one players folly on Zthe manager while placing another's entirely on him.....

Mantis Toboggan

Back him or sack him? Lol as if 400 odd million wasn't enough and we can't beat the likes of Brighton, Wolves, West Ham and Derby. Nobody in their right mind would give the man more money to waste.

Someone on here yesterday said its been worse than Moyes and Van Gaal and they'd be right it's been a horror show.

pjohnson

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Back him or sack him? Lol as if 400 odd million wasn't enough and we can't beat the likes of Brighton, Wolves, West Ham and Derby. Nobody in their right mind would give the man more money to waste.

Someone on here yesterday said its been worse than Moyes and Van Gaal and they'd be right it's been a horror show.

Yet apparently he still wasn't sackable even though he could no longer be trusted

awec

Back him or sack him is such a lazy cliche.

He was backed, that's the problem. He has spent an absolute fortune. He has spent like 70 million on two centre halves, and then moans that he has no good centre halves. He spent the club world record fee on one of the best midfielders in the world. He bought the most expensive centre forward in the history of the Premier League.

The idea he has not been backed really is nonsense. And then he gets pissy because he's not allowed to spend his way out of an issue of his own making, at the same time creating a fairly toxic atmosphere around the whole club? Mental.

Mantis Toboggan

pjohnson wrote: »

Yet apparently he still wasn't sackable even though he could no longer be trusted

Let's hope Ed steps up to the plate although somehow I doubt he'll have the cojones to make the decision.

StringerBell

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Back him or sack him? Lol as if 400 odd million wasn't enough and we can't beat the likes of Brighton, Wolves, West Ham and Derby. Nobody in their right mind would give the man more money to waste.

Someone on here yesterday said its been worse than Moyes and Van Gaal and they'd be right it's been a horror show.

It's mad how short football fans memories can be isn't it?

To throw out teams we "can't beat" as an argument is light, easily countered by anyone who would care to throw out teams we can beat, Manchester City for example.

Crazy how we can beat City and not West Ham right!

And still, even with him wasting billions and being worse than Moyes and van gaal (and this is obviously right I mean just compare the trophy hauls and league finishes!)and putting the fans and club through and absolute horror show the board didn't and still haven't sacked him.

Incredible when you think of it, I mean what could be their motivation?

pjohnson

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Let's hope Ed steps up to the plate although somehow I doubt he'll have the cojones to make the decision.

Too late now. He should have done it after the FA Cup Final. Give the "trustworthy" manager a proper chance.

Mantis Toboggan

Anyone want to go through Jose's signing and see if they have justified the fee paid?

StringerBell

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Anyone want to go through Jose's signing and see if they have justified the fee paid?

Makings of a very good squad in there, notable absences though to name a couple, right wing and having two younger cbs is great to build on but I'd say they could probably benefit from having an older head beside them to lead?

Rossi IRL

Lord TSC wrote: »

Just to check.

When Martial and Pogba have been poor for United over the course of two years, it's Jose's fault.

But when Sanchez has been poor for 10 months (after joining as we started to struggle all over), then he needs shipping off to China asap?

If we do sack Jose, then Sanchez should probably be given at least the rest of the season to see if the issue is with him or tactics. But it strikes me some people are having their cake and eating it too, wanting to blame one players folly on Zthe manager while placing another's entirely on him.....

If Jose is sacked soon then all players should be given till the end of the season under the new manager.

If they still haven't improved then ship them off in the summer.

That goes for all players.

Edit: All players Jose has signed. Dirt that has been there for the 3 managers should go regardless.

Liam O

Rossi IRL wrote: »

If Jose is sacked soon then all players should be given till the end of the season under the new manager.

If they still haven't improved then ship them off in the summer.

That goes for all players.

You're right. They've only got Moyes, LVG and José's reigns to prove themselves in some cases. It's clearly all to do with him. Keep Young and Valencia for 5 more years I say!

StringerBell

That post made me remember Young's corner that he passed straight to west ham to start a counter.

Can't believe Jose made him do that

Mantis Toboggan

StringerBell wrote: »

That post made me remember Young's corner that he passed straight to west ham to start a counter.

Can't believe Jose made him do that

Yeah and only a few months ago Jose extended his contract!

Rossi IRL

Liam O wrote: »

You're right. They've only got Moyes, LVG and José's reigns to prove themselves in some cases. It's clearly all to do with him. Keep Young and Valencia for 5 more years I say!

Your right though when it comes to the players that have been there through the 3 managers.

Alot of them are clearly just not good enough.

What I should of said was the players Jose signed should be given the till the end of season under a new manager before they are shipped off.

nullzero

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Anyone want to go through Jose's signing and see if they have justified the fee paid?

I think we all know the answer, but the same can be said of all players brought in post Ferguson.

We can't get value for money in the transfer market and its beginning to tear the club apart.

Ideally we should take this period in our history to focus almost solely on using academy players to fill the first team, we're going to be way off challenging for anything anyway, we may as well move away from the market madness that's ruining the club and try and build something cohesive because the higher ups seem to be making decisions on the bigger transfers without considering how the players will fit into the first team. We've sold plenty of shirts with Pogba, Di Maria, Sanchez and Falcao on the back without even challenging for a title.
It's time for a serious rethink of how the club operates.

duffman13

Liam O wrote: »

You're right. They've only got Moyes, LVG and José's reigns to prove themselves in some cases. It's clearly all to do with him. Keep Young and Valencia for 5 more years I say!

Well we probably aren't going to replace a whole squad in January so yeah the vast majority of the players will see out the season regardless of what happens with Jose.

pjohnson

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Your right though when it comes to the players that have been there through the 3 managers.

Alot of them are clearly just not good enough.

What I should of said was the players Jose signed should be given the till the end of season under a new manager before they are shipped off.

Well theres quite a fúckin que that need to leave and be replaced so it wont be sorted for a few windows now. And it certainly wont be cheap.

Rossi IRL

pjohnson wrote: »

Well theres quite a fúckin que that need to leave and be replaced so it wont be sorted for a few windows now. And it certainly wont be cheap.

It certainly won't be cheap.

De Gea contract needs to be sorted.

Defence needs alot of work.

I think the midfield might be OK, think Fred has it in him to be what we need.

Attack needs work

We will know better after a couple of months under a new manager if that midfield is OK.

deaddonkey15

awec wrote: »

Back him or sack him is such a lazy cliche.

He was backed, that's the problem. He has spent an absolute fortune. He has spent like 70 million on two centre halves, and then moans that he has no good centre halves. He spent the club world record fee on one of the best midfielders in the world. He bought the most expensive centre forward in the history of the Premier League.

The idea he has not been backed really is nonsense. And then he gets pissy because he's not allowed to spend his way out of an issue of his own making, at the same time creating a fairly toxic atmosphere around the whole club? Mental.

I made a similar point during the summer about it being a ridiculous ultimatum. As if the board should just pay whatever it takes to bring whoever Mourinho wants to the club or else just fire him - its ridiculous. Absolutely no manager has that luxury.

It's quite possible that the club were prepared to spend a fortune on first choice targets during the summer and that they just weren't available or interested it joining.

Maybe they were only prepared to go so far with alternative options like Maguire who don't represent much of an improvement on what we already have. Maybe they felt that offering big money for the right player in January or next summer was better than blowing big money on a fairly average player just for the sake of it. Offering 70m or 80m to Leicester to entice them to sell Harry Maguire is lunacy. If he joined and turned out to be completely underwhelming like the other centre halves that Mourinho has bought then the same people would probably be blaming Woodward for sanctioning such a massive fee for an ordinary player, and most likely criticising him again next year if he shows reluctance to splurge on another centre half to replace him.

StringerBell wrote: »

It's mad how short football fans memories can be isn't it?

To throw out teams we "can't beat" as an argument is light, easily countered by anyone who would care to throw out teams we can beat, Manchester City for example.

Crazy how we can beat City and not West Ham right!

And still, even with him wasting billions and being worse than Moyes and van gaal (and this is obviously right I mean just compare the trophy hauls and league finishes!)and putting the fans and club through and absolute horror show the board didn't and still haven't sacked him.

Incredible when you think of it, I mean what could be their motivation?

Your post just proves that the this group of players isn't exactly the sack of sh*t all the Jose defenders make it out to be. If we can beat City in their own back yard then we can beat anyone else in the league and challenge for a title or at the very least challenge for top 4.

The fact that we are struggling to put together any sort of consistency or momentum and that practically none of the players are playing to their potential is on the manager.

Ironically it was Pogba who spearheaded that comeback.

DM_7

StringerBell wrote: »

Back him or sack him was a very reasonable position to take in the summer.

Very poor result today, I don't care who your manager is you play for the badge or you don't escape criticism.

Sack the manager, keep playing that manager roulette and hope one sticks. I won't lose any sleep if Mourinho goes, but to scapegoat him and pretend the latest flavour of the month will magically turn certain players into consistent high level performers is setting yourself up for the same fall as when Jose was supposed to wave the magic wand after the van gaal experiment.

The club needs a long term vision, the longer it goes the more you see the tone coming from the top is not right, there is no vision that runs through the club. This should have been a season to build on the best league campaign since fergie. The title challenge was over before a ball was kicked. That says a lot about the ambition of the higher ups.

If you have a long term strategy and Mourinho is part of that, with trophies and a second place finish under his belt you get him what he says he needs to win the title. No bull****, it's not like you just identify one player for each position and that's it. If one is unattainable, move on. Get the job done.

If Mourinho is not part of the long term vision for the club then sack him, don't arse around and waste a year pissing everyone off while displaying this ridiculous inability to take decisive action. The decision should have been clear in the summer and no amount of obfuscation will change that.

What you have is a sit on the fence job and it is running through the club. I'm not even going to get in to the personnel issues cause I'll be here all night.

The manager needs to find a way to adapt to what he has and get more from them. If he can't do that, when what he is doing isn't working then he isn't the top level coach he very clearly is. For whatever reason it isn't working, he needs to fix that or he's toast. I do believe hevis actually trying though which is more than I can say for some of those players.

You don't play for a manager, you play for a club, you play for a set of fans, you play for your own sense of professional pride. You are cheating the fans most of all when you don't give your all for the cause and do your very best for the team once you cross on to that pitch.

There is too much blame to be spread around to scapegoat one particular person but for my money regardless of who the manager is a change in direction is needed from the top down. A clear identity and a vision for what the club wants to do long term and just go with that. If it takes short term pain and failure so be it, stick to a course of action. Don't get jumpy if it doesn't go right straight away and trust the plan.

City have done it, Barcelona have it, Juventus, Bayern, hell Liverpool are doing it, United wants to keep itself at the top table of European football and keep the money coming in long term (which is the ultimate goal of the owners let's be honest) you have to think longer term and don't **** the bag if it doesn't achieve results straight away once you are making the right steps and the progression is clear.

The worrying part as a fan is that the board seem perfectly happy with the state of things, happy to be a top four team with champions league football while slipping further from genuine challenges at top honours.

Maybe the board have accepted short term pain? Perhaps that was a key factor in holding back in the summer. They have a scenario where the manager is asking for new players which in isolation is fine. But it is not isolation.

It was a request on top of the backing they provided when he said he didn't want Memphis or Morgan so the club accepted moving them on two windows later. It was on top of moving on Miki, again within 18 months. Now he want new defenders to replace the ones they bought for him in the last two years.

Surely the club are entitled to say no, we are not paying huge fees for new CBs, we have spent a lot alreaadsy, we have bought Fred and Dalot as well. This group needs to knuckle down, you need to work again with the group you have while we make sure the club is well structured into the future. We accept it may result not winning the league for another year but that is a price worth paying for a sensible use of money.

Jose though, after getting 2nd last season, getting two new players has lost 3 from 7 this season as well as a home draw in the league. Even though they actually did spend some money. He is overseeing the mess and his actions are a major factor in the regression since last season.

If Jose can't get over himself and work well with this group then he is the one to be blame right now. It is like people forget this is elite sport and it is down to 'trying' or people 'downing tools'. That is beyond simplistic.

Every time United play he comes up with some mad scheme, Herrera was in defence for a gane and bately played before or after, McT this week without games before it. Andreas in the team at start of season, ****ed out after a poor 45 mins. Martial up front this week from nowhere. Valencia and Sanchez dropped. Lingard plays last week but dropped this week even though away games are most suited to him. Lots more, I can't be bothered going on. His mad ideas are not even to deal with the very best teams, this week was West Ham away, the exact type of game where at least 10 of the team should be obvious to everyone.

MD1990

When Mourinho wanted Maquire for 70m he should have been sacked the next day.

StringerBell

MD1990 wrote: »

When Mourinho wanted Maquire for 70m he should have been sacked the next day.

Could you ring Woodward and let him know that?

StringerBell

Good post DM_7

I agree with lots of it

MD1990

StringerBell wrote: »

Could you ring Woodward and let him know that?

No I want Mourinho in charge as long as possible.

Rayne Wooney

It’s amazing people still don’t comprehend what others are saying when they say Mourinho hasn’t been backed.

Pep has spent almost 600 million on a team that already had Aguero, Silva, Dw Bruyne and Kompany. We had two progressive seasons under Mourinho and then last summer we did not provide him with the quality needed to push on and even let Liverpool skip us in the queue. The players he tried to replace will obviously not care to play for him if they are being chucked out, and for Mourinho starting a season with 3rd place being the ceiling of our expectations would have numbed any motivation he had which has resulted in him not taking any shít from Pogba etc.

https://twitter.com/gnev2/status/1046298837952933888?s=21

ParkRunner

Zidane for the job down from 6/5 yesterday after the match to 8/11 on PP this morning

LuckyLloyd

When Mourinho was in his hey day no - one had to go around defending how much he was backed or nuances over tactics, players, etc. He just inflicted his philosophy on everything around him, won and that was that. The conversation was about how hateful he was, his controversies, etc. The very nature of these conversations are testament to how far he has fallen.