Manager wants me gone

sillysmiles

_Brian wrote: »

Here’s an angle and it’s something worth thinking about.

Maybe a senior manager has indicated to op’s manager that op needs issues addressed and the manager is giving op the opportunity to leave rather than be managed out.

In the past I’ve worked in a large company where senior managers would meddle in employee affairs and have been instructed to “manage that fella out” or “run him through a pip” to put manners on him.
It could be for many petty reasons, lads who don’t work overtime, snotty attitude, asking awkward questions of senior managers in open meetings, you’d be surprised why senior managers take the hump with employees well below their grade.

I’ve been put in the position when I pushed back where “it’s him or it’s you”

Jaysus, people are assholes sometimes aren't they.

No matter what your level, no one is irreplaceable so why do some people go out of their way to be assholes or to have a power trip. Is it really so hard to do your job as a manager without being a dick to someone.

Cilantro2000

_Brian wrote: »

Here’s an angle and it’s something worth thinking about.

Maybe a senior manager has indicated to op’s manager that op needs issues addressed and the manager is giving op the opportunity to leave rather than be managed out.

In the past I’ve worked in a large company where senior managers would meddle in employee affairs and have been instructed to “manage that fella out” or “run him through a pip” to put manners on him.
It could be for many petty reasons, lads who don’t work overtime, snotty attitude, asking awkward questions of senior managers in open meetings, you’d be surprised why senior managers take the hump with employees well below their grade.

I’ve been put in the position when I pushed back where “it’s him or it’s you”

He definitely is giving me an opportunity to leave, as don't think he wants the hassle of a pip process for months.

jon1981

I'd play hard ball and ask your manager to provide detailed examples and start addressing those.

He is predetermining your outcome of any process by saying you should move on now. That's a big HR no no and could land him in trouble. He sounds pretty inexperienced in this.

The pip process is horrible and really the manager feels all the pain, of course he wants the easy road. Don't give it to him.

Start documenting every engagment with your manager.

P.s. PIPs tend to end like this

1) employee gets fed up after month on month of improvement plans and leaves
2) manager can't design the pip well enough that the employee fails and so eventually pays off to leave
3) employee fails the pip

Number 3 is less common.

Glass fused light

jon1981 wrote: »

I'd play hard ball and ask your manager to provide detailed examples and start addressing those.

He is predetermining your outcome of any process by saying you should move on now. That's a big HR no no and could land him in trouble. He sounds pretty inexperienced in this.

The pip process is horrible and really the manager feels all the pain, of course he wants the easy road. Don't give it to him.

Start documenting every engagment with your manager.

The OP will be feeling all the pain too and deciding to stick in a work place who have decided they dont like your face can be very damaging to that persons mental health. If the OP is sure that there is no reasonable hope of keeping the job he is much better off spending his energy on interviewing for new jobs to find one which he likes. And being open with the manager so that he can get time off work to do this.


OP good luck with the job hunting. You have improved your performance but can I suggest that you also try find out what made you a "poor fit" for the company? While other peoples perceptions of us can be hurtful, this knowledge may help you in your next job, particularly if as _Brian suggests you p-ed off a senior member of staff.

davemc180

Start taking notes, date and time all interactions with him/her

Ask for a copy of your contract. Have you had any warnings? If so written warning? If not then you are in a work place bullying situation, off the record as they said to you. That's intimidating

Go to your gp, get a letter saying your stressed out . It's affecting you mentally in your personal life, ie paying for kids upcoming events etc. Not sure if you will be working

This will all boil down to your work record. If you have a history of lates or missing deadlines. Well you ain't got a pot to piss an you will be let go if your in the spotlight again for what ever reason that gives them an excuse to pull you up on.

Buf if you are as clean as a whistle and do your role without issue. You could be in the position to swap roles with the power trips.

Request a written referal of your character and work performance from your manager/ foreman

They legally can not lie on it if you have been a role model member of staff. If your a let go a couple of weeks down the road. Happy days new car paid for and new job with he copy of your gp visit, which seems will be happening either way by the sound of the manager.

Don't be walked over
Best wishes

Cyrus

Instead of the militant approach above take a look at yourself and ask were you working hard enough, were you doing a good job, should you have known what was reasonably expected of you looking at what others were doing ?

If you haven’t been performing then it’s your fault , maybe you can rectify it but in my experience people rarely do so I’d assume your manager is thinking the same and assumes you’ll end up going after a pip so is going you both a favour

Wanderer78

Cyrus wrote:

If you haven’t been performing then it’s your fault , maybe you can rectify it but in my experience people rarely do so I’d assume your manager is thinking the same and assumes you’ll end up going after a pip so is going you both a favour

People say the weirdest of things on the internet, humans are not production machines, our most basic of needs are complicated by our modern society, resulting in complex stresses and anxiety. We ve been indoctrinated to believe we are in fact production machines, that can be switched on and off at will, and if we don't perform and meet these production targets, it of course must be due to the failings of the human production machine, but the truth is in fact far more complicated. Be careful what you say to people in such circumstances, as modern society is indeed highly stressful for these human production machines, as external factors can play a critical role in creating such circumstances. Appolgies for the rant.

realitykeeper

Is it possible the manager needs a scapegoat to blame for his blunders? He doesn`t sound like the best communicator.

Glass fused light

davemc180 wrote: »

Request a written referal of your character and work performance from your manager/ foreman

They legally can not lie on it if you have been a role model member of staff.

The manager has no legal obligation to write a character referral. And as it is the managers personal opinion of the OP as a person and as it would be handed directly to the OP, the manager could write just about anything. But as the manager has already mentioned HR nothing will be provided that can be used against the company. If there is a strict HR policy the manager would be prohibited from giving any kind of reference at all. The manager has no legal obligation to write a work performance referral either and will refer the OP to HR who will likely only provide a OP worked from/to reference.

ichabod

gozunda wrote: »

Redundancy money if he is being left go as described. Not probably much but all the same the manager seems to want to go down the stupid route and risk a complaint about his behaviour and in a worse case scenario - The matter being investigated and ruled on externally...

Fairly typical bulky boy / head in the sand type of stupid management practices engaged in this country ime

The OP has worked with this company for just over a year. Therefore no redundancy. There is a minimum requirement of two years continuous service over the age of 16 with a company in order to qualify for redundancy. This is a simple case of trying to get the OP to leave. If he does so, he has a possible case for constructive dismissal. However, unlike being fired where the dismissal is always assumed to be unfair and it is up to the employer to prove otherwise, the onus is on the employee to prove constructive dismissal.
Some posters seem to be confusing lay off, redundancy and simple dismissal. These are all different kettles of fish and the rules and procedures different in each one.
It is difficult to know which way to go here. My own instinct would to take a
" do your worst " attitude but the OP says he has a young family and a mortgage to protect. Another poster has given some good advice. Record and take notes on any future adverse conversations, casual or formal with any management even if he decides to look for secure job. Note any witnesses to the conversation. He can then decide on a constructive dismissal or harassment claim once he has sufficient evidence. One casual conversation does not constitute harassment or even sufficient grounds for constructive dismissal.
I really feel sorry for anyone in this position which is all too common. I often wonder too what the criteria is for promotion to a management position in some companies. I think there is only one in many cases - Thick.

Montgolfier

Your manager may have a friend or relation he is trying to get your job.
Probably asked hr and they said they can't hire anyone unless someone leaves.
That's the only senario where I would see a manager saying something so stupid.
Don't fold talk to the hr about this to confirm.

TG1

People will go to any lengths to avoid admitting the possibility that maybe an employee is actually underperforming.

Op, I would ask for specific examples, and then be prepared to hear them. Maybe there is an issue you are not aware of?

I'm not saying your manager was correct in how he went about it, but there is a possibility that there is a genuine performance issue there. Maybe talk to your manager to get specifics, work on those areas and have your proof of improvements made ready to go if it gets formalised, rather than putting all your energy into getting upset about wild unfounded theories about nepotism etc.

Cyrus

Wanderer78 wrote: »

People say the weirdest of things on the internet, humans are not production machines, our most basic of needs are complicated by our modern society, resulting in complex stresses and anxiety. We ve been indoctrinated to believe we are in fact production machines, that can be switched on and off at will, and if we don't perform and meet these production targets, it of course must be due to the failings of the human production machine, but the truth is in fact far more complicated. Be careful what you say to people in such circumstances, as modern society is indeed highly stressful for these human production machines, as external factors can play a critical role in creating such circumstances. Appolgies for the rant.

Or you pay someone to do a job if they can’t do it they aren’t worth the payment you are giving them , why should someone suffer for the poor performance of another.

The op hasn’t pointed to any complex stresses maybe they just aren’t suited to the role or co they work for ?

Wanderer78

Cyrus wrote:

The op hasn’t pointed to any complex stresses maybe they just aren’t suited to the role or co they work for ?

They have to me, to be honest, in the first few posts, I do think it's far more constructive to give possible solutions to people in such situations, rather than being critical, the working world can be extremely stressful in modern society. Maybe I've misread your advice as being critical, in that case, I do apologise, but it does sound critical

davo10

Wanderer78 wrote: »

They have to me, to be honest, in the first few posts, I do think it's far more constructive to give possible solutions to people in such situations, rather than being critical, the working world can be extremely stressful in modern society. Maybe I've misread your advice as being critical, in that case, I do apologise, but it does sound critical

Not many people have the luxury of a stress free job, most are dependent on competency, performance of tasks, reaching targets etc. If you are not competent at your job, why should you have the job? Other members of society would be grateful of the opportunity.

Wanderer78

davo10 wrote:

Not many people have the luxury of a stress free job, most are dependent on competency, performance of tasks, reaching targets etc. If you are not competent at your job, why should you have the job?

Being critical towards strangers on the internet's, particularly under such circumstances, is not very productive, have a little compassion and understanding towards their situation, in order to be so

Avatar MIA

A few things...



A written referral isn't worth the paper it's written on - when was the last time any company relied on a written referral when they can phone?



And you're not obliged to give a reference, for some reason an ex colleague gave me as a reference even though they were a complete liability, work shy and we were delighted when they left, and I simply ignored the potential employer, they eventually took the hint.



On the other hand I've given ex colleagues excellent references, one for a senior role with a large MNC and she came back to me and told me it was my reference that got her the job.


Clearly the OP's case is not a redundancy situation. Likewise, I don't think there's much chance of a successful disciplinary case against the manager.



The OP is doing the right thing, trying to get another job if that's an option.

Cyrus

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Being critical towards strangers on the internet's, particularly under such circumstances, is not very productive, have a little compassion and understanding towards their situation, in order to be so

Strangers on the internet ask for advice , no one is being critical but some introspection is required here it can’t always be someone else’s fault

beauf

Cyrus wrote: »

Strangers on the internet ask for advice , no one is being critical but some introspection is required here it can’t always be someone else’s fault

In my experience someone being badly managed is 10 times more likely than someone not being able to do a job.

But is always worthwhile to self diagnose and see what you can do to fix a situation yourself. I'm a fan of agreeing a list with someone them working through it. Once you have hard numbers on tasks completed, time taken etc. It's much easier to show progress or the lack of it.

Doing things verbal and non specific is not helpful. For me that's an indicator of poor planning and management. Both by the manager and the employee.

Cyrus

beauf wrote: »

In my experience someone being badly managed is 10 times more likely than someone not being able to do a job.

But is always worthwhile to self diagnose and see what you can do to fix a situation yourself. I'm a fan of agreeing a list with someone them working through it. Once you have hard numbers on tasks completed, time taken etc. It's much easier to show progress or the lack of it.

Doing things verbal and non specific is not helpful. For me that's an indicator of poor planning and management. Both by the manager and the employee.

In your experience how many people who have performed badly enough to be put on a pip are ever really suitable for the job that they are in?

beauf

Generally some one who uses a formal pip is the person whos lack of planning caused the situation in the first place. They generally won't manage the pip either.

Some people will manage by mentoring team member better fit in the team and yes I've seen that work. Especially if they have the acumen to see some tasks suit different people.

I've certainly turned people struggling around with a bit of hands on help. Can it be done certainly.

I'm not sure where you are going with the "what the point" mindset. Considering the target audience on this thread.

beauf

Cyrus wrote: »

Or you pay someone to do a job if they can’t do it they aren’t worth the payment you are giving them , why should someone suffer for the poor performance of another...

...because the cost to fix a problem is usually cheaper than replacement.

Peanut2011

OP,

As someone who has managed staff for a long time and has had people who were not performing I'm going to offer you another view.

If this was the first time you were told about underperformance then yes it's been handled badly and was an overreaction.

I would expect that from someone who has not managed staff for very long. However what also strikes me as an issue is that you say "now that you had the discussion you see you were not meeting expectations". We're your goals / expectations never discussed?

On what grounds did they pass your probation period??

Also, are you as committed now as you were when you started? I've seen a lot of people start really well but fall in to the negative environment or the role does not turn out to be what they wanted and performance does down.

For me there are too many gaps to judge the full story but if you recognise that you are not performing unless you did a lot more then what pip requires you to do, you will not gain the trust or respect at this stage.

You also did not go in to if you like / love the job you do but focused on the pay aspect. I can understand that but that has warning signs for me.

In any case I'd say you are better off looking elsewhere but don't be in a rush to just take anything going.

It's crap situation to be in. Best of luck.

Wanderer2010

Peanut2011 wrote: »

OP,

You also did not go in to if you like / love the job you do but focused on the pay aspect. I can understand that but that has warning signs for me.
.

What kind of warning signs? People need to get paid, they need money to pay bills, eat and have a general living quality.

Presumably you wouldn't work for free?

Cyrus

beauf wrote: »

I'm not sure where you are going with the "what the point" mindset. Considering the target audience on this thread.

I have no idea what you are saying here ?

Regarding people successfully improving the performance of someone who you have put on a pip, I suppose it depends on the size of organisation and how much spare capacity you have to accommodate people who perform at a lower level than others , in my company anyone who was identified as requiring a pip ultimately ended being let go.

beauf

A pip is often (probably usually) used as a HR tool to eject people. It's not usually a mechanism to help people improve. Which why those correlate in your experience.

In a place with no metrics they have no means to measure productivity. Thus it's measured by perception. Perception is harder to change than metrics.

Which is why the op needs to make it a numbers game. Or play office politics as that's the best way to change perception if there are no metrics. Or switch to another manager laterally. Because if someone has a habit of not looking at productivity by metrics then it's a lost cause.

Cyrus

beauf wrote: »

A pip is often (probably usually) used as a HR tool to eject people. It's not usually a mechanism to help people improve. Which why those correlate in your experience.

In a place with no metrics they have no means to measure productivity. Thus it's measured by perception. Perception is harder to change than metrics.

Which is why the op needs to make it a numbers game. Or play office politics as that's the best way to change perception if there are no metrics. Or switch to another manager laterally. Because if someone has a habit of not looking at productivity by metrics then it's a lost cause.

Productivity is easily measured for manual tasks more difficult in the professional sphere

Peanut2011

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

What kind of warning signs? People need to get paid, they need money to pay bills, eat and have a general living quality.

Presumably you wouldn't work for free?

If you don't like or love what you do, one can easily underperform as no passion comes behind it. One ends up coming in just waiting for time to pass to go home.

If that is the attitude one is hardly going to be employee off the month and if direction is not there they will struggle to do tasks which are not monitored regularly.

As I said I can understand one needing the pay, after all most people work to earn the living but in jobs like that some people struggle.

As a result you can't do right in a wrong job.

So I hope I answered you question but if you have nothing constructive to add I'd suggest you skip the post.

Wanderer2010

Peanut2011 wrote: »

If you don't like or love what you do, one can easily underperform as no passion comes behind it. One ends up coming in just waiting for time to pass to go home.

If that is the attitude one is hardly going to be employee off the month and if direction is not there they will struggle to do tasks which are not monitored regularly.

As I said I can understand one needing the pay, after all most people work to earn the living but in jobs like that some people struggle.

As a result you can't do right in a wrong job.

So I hope I answered you question but if you have nothing constructive to add I'd suggest you skip the post.

Thanks for the suggestion but its a public forum so ill pass on getting your approval before posting.
As for your comment about most people work to earn the living, id say pretty much everyone works for the money on some level and nobody could be reasonable expected to be Employee of the Month.

OP, id say ask your manager for feedback on what you need to improve on and let him go down the HR route if he needs to.

beauf

Peanut2011 wrote: »

...

As a result you can't do right in a wrong job.

....

Lots of people do jobs because they are good at them. Not because they love doing them. It's very common.