General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Fitzgerald is owed an apology by a lot of people. Even Jim O'Callaghan is backpedalling rapidly today, moving goalposts as quick as he can.

O' Callaghan has defended his call for her resignation, you still wish to tie her resignation into the O'Higgins commission. She misled the Dail and the Taoiseach. Her position was not tenable. Please don't try to rewrite the past.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

What I said was "Fitzgerald and O'Sullivan do not appear to have any case to answer from any evidence to date. Of course, something else may come out later, but there is nothing currently in the public domain to suggest any serious wrongdoing on their part."

There is nothing premature in that.

Fitzgerald is owed an apology by a lot of people. Even Jim O'Callaghan is backpedalling rapidly today, moving goalposts as quick as he can.

Fitzgerald misled both her Taoiseach and the Dail - either purposely or via incompetence. Either or is not befitting of a justice minister - hence why FF insisted on her resignation, and Leo caved in.

2 x justice ministers and 2 x commissioners. Some law and order party.

No twisting of words or facts can deny that.

seamus

nc6000 wrote: »

Is Richard Bruton taking over just temporary?

After the review of the S&C agreement with Fianna Fáil, it might be timely for Leo to do a quick cabinet shuffle to stabilise the crew a bit, make sure everyone is happy/knows their place.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

What I said was "Fitzgerald and O'Sullivan do not appear to have any case to answer from any evidence to date. Of course, something else may come out later, but there is nothing currently in the public domain to suggest any serious wrongdoing on their part."

Justice Charlton had nothing but effusive praise for McCabe, mentioning decency and describing McCabe as a paradigm. I notice your energies seem to be devoted to trying to elicit an apology for O'Sullivan and Fitzgerald but yet you have nothing to say about the man who's integrity and personal life was attacked by various organs of the state.
I will leave my comments to you at that as I have seen you defend the indefensible on numerous occasions and attack a man's character even when evidence to the contrary was presented to you. Good day.

Chips Lovell

I think it's important to review what the opposition were saying when calling for Fitzgerald's head back in November. Fianna Fail justice spokesman Jim O'Callaghan said:

I want to outline to the Tanaiste Fianna Fail's criticism of her. It is this. In May 2015, the Tanaiste was aware of the strategy of the Garda Commissioner to attack and to try to personally destroy the reputation of Sergeant Maurice McCabe. We do not say that the Tanaiste formulated that strategy, we do not say that she was part of the make-up of that strategy but we say she was aware of that strategy. To use a phrase that was used elsewhere on this issue, the Tanaiste was privy to that strategy. Our criticism is that the Tanaiste did nothing to stop it. The Tanaiste did nothing to give the impression that it was wrong what was happening and, instead, she publicly sought to present herself as being supportive of Maurice McCabe and supportive of whistleblowers.

Sinn Fein leader Mary Lou McDonald meanwhile said:

We have now spent over a week discussing this email, the email which outlined the very malicious strategy designed by former Garda Commissioner Nn O'Sullivan and her legal team to destroy the reputation and the life of Sergeant Maurice McCabe. It seems to me that there was a conspiracy to ruin this honourable man and that members of An Garda Shiocana and the Tanaiste's former Department were part of this conspiracy. I say this is because the Tanaiste has refused to provide clear answers and explanations. This is the Tanaiste's last chance to answer those questions and to provide the necessary clarity.

Fitzgerald resigned, but said she believed she would be vindicated by the tribunal, so even at the time, it was seen that the tribunal would decide the truth of the matter :

Ms Fitzgerald told a Cabinet meeting on Tuesday she would be “vindicated” by the Disclosures Tribunal led by Mr Justice Peter Charleton, which is examining allegations of the smear campaign against Garda whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe.

The Tiste told her colleagues she believed she had done nothing wrong but she was resigning to avoid “an unwelcome and potentially destabilising general election”.

Now it transpires that there was no evidence of such a strategy designed by former Garda Commissioner O'Sullivan. So it wasn't even a case of whether Fitzgerald was aware of or complicit in this strategy. It didn't exist in the first place.

Now O'Callaghan is backpedaling and trying to twist things a bit, saying it was all political:

Speaking on RTE's Morning Ireland, Mr O'Callaghan said that there were "political reasons" why Fianna Fail, along with most of the Dail, lost confidence in Ms Fitzgerald.

He said that while he accepts the findings are a vindication of Ms Fitzgerald, their position in November 2017 was a political judgement, similar to Taoiseach Leo Varadkar's loss of confidence in Denis Naughten yesterday, and they had "a responsibility to act".

seamus

It does seem like O'Sullivan and Fitzgerald were smeared with allegations of collusion and corruption simply by being in close proximity to Callinan.

That's not to say O'Sullivan doesn't stink, but it does seem like Fitzgerald was unfairly scapegoated in this by the opposition parties, and her own party then threw her under the bus.

A bit like Alan Shatter; FG has not been good to its Justice Ministers.

Captain Obvious

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I think it's important to review what the opposition were saying when calling for Fitzgerald's head back in November. Fianna Fail justice spokesman Jim O'Callaghan said:


Sinn Fein leader Mary Lou McDonald meanwhile said:

Fitzgerald resigned, but said she believed she would be vindicated by the tribunal, so even at the time, it was seen that the tribunal would decide the truth of the matter :



Now it transpires that there was no evidence of such a strategy designed by former Garda Commissioner O'Sullivan. So it wasn't even a case of whether Fitzgerald was aware of or complicit in this strategy. It didn't exist in the first place.

Now O'Callaghan is backpedaling and trying to twist things a bit, saying it was all political:

Well she was an awful minister outside of this mess.

Colonel Claptrap

seamus wrote: »

That's not to say O'Sullivan doesn't stink, but it does seem like Fitzgerald was unfairly scapegoated in this by the opposition parties, and her own party then threw her under the bus.

If it was a choice between throwing the minister under a bus or allowing the opposition to collapse the government - then I think the government did right by placing country before party.

Fitzgerald was a casualty of war.

Remember, the opposition whooped and cheered in the Dail bar. They were the ones driving the bus.

Colonel Claptrap

Simon Harris has criticised Michael Martin's "disgraceful behaviour" in forcing the government to sack her. Calls for Martin and Mary Lou McDonald to correct the Dail record.

James Brown

seamus wrote: »

It does seem like O'Sullivan and Fitzgerald were smeared with allegations of collusion and corruption simply by being in close proximity to Callinan.

That's not to say O'Sullivan doesn't stink, but it does seem like Fitzgerald was unfairly scapegoated in this by the opposition parties, and her own party then threw her under the bus.

A bit like Alan Shatter; FG has not been good to its Justice Ministers.

The conclusions were drawn based on her unwillingness or inability to clarify her position at the time. If she wasn't so incompetent, giving the benefit of the doubt that it was incompetence, she wouldn't have misled the Dail and Varadkar, having him also mislead the Dail. It stank. She should have been binned on that alone.
I would call the findings vindication as regards any nefarious moves, but by no stretch grounds for an apology, even setting aside giving false information to the Dail and Leo, both herself and her department were not fit for purpose.

Pat Breen needs explain himself, setting up and attending that dinner.

McMurphy

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Simon Harris has criticised Michael Martin's "disgraceful behaviour" in forcing the government to sack her. Calls for Martin and Mary Lou McDonald to correct the Dail record.

I thought she resigned.

Chips Lovell

Of course, the most depressing thing about the entire saga is that even if the cast changes, the script will stay the same.

So if O'Callaghan had been Minister for Justice when this happened, it would be Fitzgerald and McDonald calling for his head and refusing to apologise when he was cleared.

Or if McDonald had been Minister, it would have been Fitzgerald and O'Callaghan calling for her head and refusing to apologise when she was cleared.

I honestly can't envision any of the major parties acting differently. And why would they? Voters rarely penalise opposition for opposition's sake.

seamus

Martin has sent a letter to the Taoiseach saying it is best they "both agree not to bring down the government" in light of the sensitive position that Brexit negotiations are in.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/1012/1002766-politics/

That reads to me like Martin understanding that FG are in a stronger electoral position, but signalling that whoever calls a GE right now will be called irresponsible.

Possibly also indicating that any confidence & supply agreement will only last as long as Brexit is uncertain.

James Brown

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Of course, the most depressing thing about the entire saga is that even if the cast changes, the script will stay the same.

So if O'Callaghan had been Minister for Justice when this happened, it would be Fitzgerald and McDonald calling for his head and refusing to apologise when he was cleared.

Or if McDonald had been Minister, it would have been Fitzgerald and O'Callaghan calling for her head and refusing to apologise when she was cleared.

I honestly can't envision any of the major parties acting differently. And why would they? Voters rarely penalise opposition for opposition's sake.

She wasn't cleared. She mislead the Dail and then had leo mislead the Dail.
The ongoing controversy at the time and her incompetence certainly added. She wasn't cleared of her false story to Leo and the Dail nor her incompetence.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

She wasn't cleared. She mislead the Dail and then had leo mislead the Dail.
The ongoing controversy at the time and her incompetence certainly added. She wasn't cleared of her false story to Leo and the Dail nor her incompetence.

She was accused of misleading the Dail because she didn't tell it what she knew about the O'Sullivan plan to discredit McCabe.

The Tribunal has now found that there was no O'Sullivan plan to discredit McCabe. How can she have misled the Dail if there was no such plan in the first place?

Chips Lovell

I don't really understand what you're driving at. The allegation was that there was a conspiracy underway and that she, at the very least, had been made aware of that conspiracy via emails and chose to do nothing about it.

It transpired that there was no conspiracy. So what's she guilty of then? Not remembering receiving emails that didn't incriminate her in something. OK...

cherryghost

Post-brexit elections probably on the cards, be a bad move to do so before with such uncertainty of whats to come next year.

James Brown

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I don't really understand what you're driving at. The allegation was that there was a conspiracy underway and that she, at the very least, had been made aware of that conspiracy via emails and chose to do nothing about it.

It transpired that there was no conspiracy. So what's she guilty of then? Not remembering receiving emails that didn't incriminate her in something. OK...

Anyone who said she was actively involved with a campaign to attack the integrity of McCabe should apologise IMO.

She 'resigned' because of those questions hanging over her which were exacerbated by the email she didn't see and misleading the Dail and Leo.
The point is no apology is required for her having to resign. The resignation was not just about questions people had regarding McCabe.

Personally I feel she was bad at her job, even Leo had no confidence in her department.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Anyone who said she was actively involved with a campaign to attack the integrity of McCabe should apologise IMO.

She 'resigned' because of those questions hanging over her which were exacerbated by the email she didn't see and misleading the Dail and Leo.
The point is no apology is required for her having to resign. The resignation was not just about questions people had regarding McCabe.

The questions hanging over her were why she didn't do something about a non-existent conspiracy.

Those who asked her questions then are looking a bit silly, but not as silly as those who still think her resignation was justified.

Edit: But if you have evidence that she resigned over something else, you will be able to produce a link to something, won't you?

seamus

cherryghost wrote: »

Post-brexit elections probably on the cards, be a bad move to do so before with such uncertainty of whats to come next year.

Possibly beforehand even.

If the future of Brexit were to become certain, deal or no deal, then there might be some jostling to form a new "strong and stable" government in advance of Brexit, to see Ireland through the tough times ahead.

Hitman3000

Clever move by Martin. Leo now if he cuts and runs to the Aras will look irresponsible with the Brexit talks still not concluded. I doubt Leo will be rewarded if uncertainty is the result of a rush to the polls.

Hurrache

He was never going to cut and run, Martin hasn't caught him in an elaborate trap.

James Brown

Is Pat Breen around today? Another should be explaining himself. Head down I suppose.

Martin would be all up for an election if he felt he had the numbers. Now would be a good time just after an unpopular budget and Naughton's Noonan like inappropriate behaviour.

Brexit is often used as an excuse not to look after other areas.

Hitman3000

Hurrache wrote:

He was never going to cut and run, Martin hasn't caught him in an elaborate trap.

I guess it's a matter of opinion so, however neither want to go to the electorate having collapsed the government. Martin now has asked for a commitment from Leo to stay the course for the sake of the country because of Brexit. If Leo ignores Martin, the blame for a winter vote is firmly on Leo's shoulder's and a large helping of irresponsible behaviour to accompany it.

Hurrache

It's not really opinion though, it's reality.

Hitman3000

Hurrache wrote:

It's not really opinion though, it's reality.

I think the best we can do is agree to disagree. I find going in circles is dizzing and unpleasant.

lawred2

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Clever move by Martin. Leo now if he cuts and runs to the Aras will look irresponsible with the Brexit talks still not concluded. I doubt Leo will be rewarded if uncertainty is the result of a rush to the polls.

asif Martin had an alternative.

FF are still a busted flush.

Hitman3000

lawred2 wrote:

asif Martin had an alternative.

There isn't light between FF and FG. Personally I think they should merge and drop the pretence of being an opposition to one another. It's only ego stopping them and some false grassroots ideology.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Clever move by Martin. Leo now if he cuts and runs to the Aras will look irresponsible with the Brexit talks still not concluded. I doubt Leo will be rewarded if uncertainty is the result of a rush to the polls.

Martin shows his desperation to avoid an election.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Martin shows his desperation to avoid an election.

Post #727 should suffice.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Post #727 should suffice.

Sorry, I don't understand.

I didn't say it wasn't clever by Martin, which was your point. It was very clever by Martin as he is so desperate to avoid an election that he plays this card.

The problem for Martin, and he sees it now, is that he might have to start voting with FG to avoid an election, rather than just abstaining. The letter is his clever way of putting this on the table.

It is oldstyle FF cleverness, in that I agree with you.

The other problem for Martin is that SF will have full licence to attack him rather than the government, after all, he is their main target. They know they won't get FG voters, so the soft republicans in FF are what they are after.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Sorry, I don't understand.

I told another poster I had no intention of going around in circles, when unless we know the inner workings of MM or LV mind opinion is what we have as to what their motives may be.

badtoro

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Whats wrong with placing a levy on agriculture for Carbon emissions.

Grand so, if we follow that line of thinking I take it you're in favour of paying farmers for any carbon sinks they may own as well.

What's wrong with the levy is farming is an industry with huge political and vested interest interference. "The system" is geared towards production and is getting worse - payments like the sheep welfare scheme and others like the proposed suckler payment attaching €'s to animals heads. This often leaves the individual farmer stuck in a system they cannot change because they have no power to do so. Payments should be area based and focus on extensification, scientifically constraints, environmental benefit, and public goods.

Edward M

blanch152 wrote: »

Sorry, I don't understand.

I didn't say it wasn't clever by Martin, which was your point. It was very clever by Martin as he is so desperate to avoid an election that he plays this card.

The problem for Martin, and he sees it now, is that he might have to start voting with FG to avoid an election, rather than just abstaining. The letter is his clever way of putting this on the table.

It is oldstyle FF cleverness, in that I agree with you.

The other problem for Martin is that SF will have full licence to attack him rather than the government, after all, he is their main target. They know they won't get FG voters, so the soft republicans in FF are what they are after.

I think an election is a very real possibility now, not because of either FG or FF, but because of a few irresponsible TDs in both FG and the IA.
I think both party's will try to avoid it for now if possible, but just in case the blame game has started.

McMurphy

Still some unbelievably stupid antics by Denis, what an absolute tool.

You'd think after his run ins with O'Brien he'd have learnt, but no, you can't fix stupid.

Bit hypocritical of Leo though.

Denis (Naughten) meets David McCourt. Informal meeting, no notes were taken - Denis resigns. (Leo doesn't have confidence in him)

Leo meets Denis (O'Brien), informal meeting, no notes were taken. Nothing happens. (Leo brushes it off).

Actavo still the frontrunner to roll out the national broadband plan.

It all started with a mobile license.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Still some unbelievably stupid antics by Denis, what an absolute tool.

You'd think after his run ins with O'Brien he'd have learnt, but no, you can't fix stupid.

Bit hypocritical of Leo though.

Denis (Naughten) meets David McCourt. Informal meeting, no notes were taken - Denis resigns. (Leo doesn't have confidence in him)

Leo meets Denis (O'Brien), informal meeting, no notes were taken. Nothing happens. (Leo brushes it off).

Actavo still the frontrunner to roll out the national broadband plan.

It all started with a mobile license.

Is this something new you are talking about?

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Is this something new you are talking about?

What specifically?

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

What specifically?

Not sure which Denis you are talking about at different points in your post.

Not sure which meetings you are telling us Leo had with which Denis.

Not sure it it is news or rehashing of old stories.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Not sure which Denis you are talking about at different points in your post.

Not sure which meetings you are telling us Leo had with which Denis.

Not sure it it is news or rehashing of old stories.

Not sure that you even read the post so.

Read it again.

James Brown

Is Leo seriously so ill-informed that he thinks more staff available in hospitals will create less need for trolleys? Wasn't he Minister for Health at one time? It's having to leave patients on trolleys that's the bigger problem over the holiday period. How can more staff prepare beds that aren't there? It's like he's not been following the scandal of hospital trolleys at all. Did he not even read Enda's spiel?

Taoiseach wishes he could direct health staff to work through January

Dr Peadar Gilligan, president of the Irish Medical Organisation (IMO) and himself an emergency medical consultant, said a lack of beds and resources rather than doctors and nurses on leave is causing overcrowding in hospitals at Christmas.

Blaming doctors and nurses for the failures of the health system was not helpful or appropriate he said.

‘Nonsensical’

Be interesting to see which LA is responsible for Varadkar's latest ignorant spin. My money is on DCC.

Podge_irl

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Is Leo seriously so ill-informed that he thinks more staff available in hospitals will create less need for trolleys? Wasn't he Minister for Health at one time? It's having to leave patients on trolleys that's the bigger problem over the holiday period. How can more staff prepare beds that aren't there? It's like he's not been following the scandal of hospital trolleys at all. Did he not even read Enda's spiel?

While it is far from the only issue at hand, if radiologists/labtechs etc are not present then patients who would potentially otherwise be discharged are left to wait until those people return. This is a contributory factor to the backlog in beds.

James Brown

Podge_irl wrote: »

While it is far from the only issue at hand, if radiologists/labtechs etc are not present then patients who would potentially otherwise be discharged are left to wait until those people return. This is a contributory factor to the backlog in beds.

I would say there's a logic to that but it seems the people at the coal face would beg to differ.

The General Secretary of the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation described the Taoiseach's comments as an attempt to divert from the real issues.

Phil Ní Sheaghdha said the real issue is that there is no winter plan and said this winter is going to be as bad, but hopefully not worse, than last year.

Speaking on RTÉ's Today with Sean O'Rourke, she said INMO members work 365 days a year and many have built up a considerable amount of hours that they are owed.

She said one department in one hospital has 1,000 hours owed.

Ms Ní Sheaghdha said annual leave is curtailed over periods like Christmas and hospital rosters are "totally dependent on agency (staff) and overtime".

She added that the healthcare system is also dependent on goodwill during crisis periods, such as Storm Emma in March, because the system is unprepared for such periods.

Earlier, the President of the Irish Medical Organisation said that annual leave was not a contributor to the overcrowding problem in Irish hospitals, which manifests in the emergency departments.
https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2018/1107/1009191-hospital-overcrowding/

It's Leo trying to divert away from the fact that nothing has changed in regard to this issue, there is no plan and looking to put blame on overworked staff who may be taking days off is below par, not for him I suppose.

Podge_irl

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I would say there's a logic to that but it seems the people at the coal face would beg to differ.

It's Leo trying to divert away from the fact that nothing has changed in regard to this issue, there is no plan and looking to put blame on overworked staff who may be taking days off is below par, not for him I suppose.

They are absolutely wrong if they claim it is not a "contributory factor" - but they are organisations representing staff so I understand why they would make such a claim. The question is how large a contributory factor and I frankly have no idea. They are also correct that there are many other issues at play. Varadkar is not fundamentally wrong though.

Edward M

Podge_irl wrote: »

They are absolutely wrong if they claim it is not a "contributory factor" - but they are organisations representing staff so I understand why they would make such a claim. The question is how large a contributory factor and I frankly have no idea. They are also correct that there are many other issues at play. Varadkar is not fundamentally wrong though.

The nurses and midwives are the workhorses of the service. Doctors and junior Doctors too to a large extent.
The surgeons, specialists and consultant chaps needed to get the prognosed treatment carried out are the ones off on their jollies.
A round of golf, punchestown etc on Stephens day and coming to and around New year, even your average weekend.

James Brown

Podge_irl wrote: »

They are absolutely wrong if they claim it is not a "contributory factor" - but they are organisations representing staff so I understand why they would make such a claim. The question is how large a contributory factor and I frankly have no idea. They are also correct that there are many other issues at play. Varadkar is not fundamentally wrong though.

If you want to go that route then Leo represents government, so we can see why he'd want to divert any culpability, so where do we go from there?
He's grossly wrong to try spin this perennial crisis that his own party and former leader put down to a bed shortage. The point is it's an ongoing saga and to come out with this kind of guff is disgraceful and seemingly wrong by all accounts.

Speaking on RTÉ's Today with Sean O'Rourke, she said INMO members work 365 days a year and many have built up a considerable amount of hours that they are owed.

She said one department in one hospital has 1,000 hours owed.

Ms Ní Sheaghdha said annual leave is curtailed over periods like Christmas and hospital rosters are "totally dependent on agency (staff) and overtime".

It's the latest in a line of diverting blame rather than governing effectively.

Edward M

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If you want to go that route then Leo represents government, so we can see why he'd want to divert any culpability, so where do we go from there?
He's grossly wrong to try spin this perennial crisis that his own party and former leader put down to a bed shortage. The point is it's an ongoing saga and to come out with this kind of guff is disgraceful and seemingly wrong by all accounts.



It's the latest in a line of diverting blame rather than governing effectively.

There's spin in that too, no one works 365 days a year.

James Brown

Edward M wrote: »

The nurses and midwives are the workhorses of the service. Doctors and junior Doctors too to a large extent.
The surgeons, specialists and consultant chaps needed to get the prognosed treatment carried out are the ones off on their jollies.
A round of golf, punchestown etc on Stephens day and coming to and around New year, even your average weekend.

They're also the ones you can wait a long time to see, or see within days if you go to their private clinics.

James Brown

Edward M wrote: »

There's spin in that too, no one works 365 days a year.

It means they don't close I'd expect. Hardly spin.

Podge_irl

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It means they don't close I'd expect. Hardly spin.

The entire point is that plenty of specialty services do, in essence, close. This contributes to the backlog in clearing ward beds and adds to the trolley problems in A&E.

I never said I completely took what Varadkar said as the objective truth - merely that there is an element of truth in it. He has obvious reasons to put his own spin on it.

He is also completely right that all the winter plans in the world in the past haven't actually seemed to help, so coming at it from a different angle might be an idea.

James Brown

Podge_irl wrote: »

The entire point is that plenty of specialty services do, in essence, close. This contributes to the backlog in clearing ward beds and adds to the trolley problems in A&E.

I never said I completely took what Varadkar said as the objective truth - merely that there is an element of truth in it. He has obvious reasons to put his own spin on it.

He is also completely right that all the winter plans in the world in the past haven't actually seemed to help, so coming at it from a different angle might be an idea.

No it's not. It's that we have an ongoing hospital bed shortage, exacerbated by the winter period. We know this, every year. Now Varadkar is suggesting staff not taking holidays would help solve this and staff organisations saying they are actually due hours and working over time. So Leo is taking nonsense even if his concept holds merit. He is trying to divert blame. There is absolutely no plan and 7 or 8 years in after Enda said he'd tackle the problem, and Leo having a stint as Minister of health, here's Leo diverting. Maybe if they tackled the crises they wouldn't need so much spin and nonsense.