General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

Edward M

blanch152 wrote: »

No issue with more taxation on agriculture for carbon emissions.

However, food is essential, private transport for people living on top of mountains is not. So more taxation on petrol and diesel.

Not too many live on top of mountains.
There are a good many living in the countryside.
If anyone thinks placing a carbon tax will alleviate any carbon emissions they are mistaken, it just makes everything more expensive because of the price of logistically getting stuff delivered more expensive.
Promoting the alternatives and making them more cost attractive is the way to go on that I feel.

sdanseo

FF being seen as the catalyst SHOULD be preferable to FF voters than watching them cling to mediocre influence and play an opinion poll waiting game whilst propping up an incompetent government.
Says a lot about most FF voters - even though I have been a self confessed one at times - that this is seen to be the better move.

I thought after 10 years maybe it was nearing time to give them another go. Doubting that now.

Irish politics really has become a game of picking the least worst, more even than it ever was. It's pathetic.

nc6000

Is Richard Bruton taking over just temporary?

Hurrache

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The report didn't deal with her misleading the Dail or Leo, it wasn't part of the remit.

It was tasked with investigating how much she knew.

BENDYBINN wrote: »

RTÉ shouldn’t be a mouthpiece for Leo and fg. Tonights RTÉ news was disgraceful.

One for the conspiracy theories.

BENDYBINN

Time will tell

Hitman3000

Hurrache wrote:

It was tasked with investigating how much she knew.

I don't even know why you felt the need to respond. I have already said the misleading of the Dail was not part of Charlton's remit. Separate issue, she also misinformed Leo causing him to mislead the Dail also. I have not once referred to Charlton's finding about Fitzgerald

Hurrache

Why try to be condescending? If you want to be childish about it and try point score all the power to you.

I already told you what my point was, it's the optics of the report finding no fault with her in this mess. That's all that will matter in the eyes of enough people for anything else not to be an issue as it's all related.

blanch152

Hurrache wrote: »

Why try to be condescending? If you want to be childish about it and try point score all the power to you.

I already told you what my point was, it's the optics of the report finding no fault with her in this mess. That's all that will matter in the eyes of enough people for anything else not to be an issue as it's all related.

Posters on here were cheerleading Taylor for "revealing" all about O'Sullivan. Naturally, they are sore when the truth comes out. You would have thought that they would have learned a lesson from the Garda Harrison module. An inexplicable blind hatred for O'Sullivan seems to be their motivation, so don't expect any climbdown.

Fitzgerald and O'Sullivan do not appear to have any case to answer from any evidence to date. Of course, something else may come out later, but there is nothing currently in the public domain to suggest any serious wrongdoing on their part.

The key unanswered question in the Callinan/Taylor module is who led who? Who was the first to raise suspicions about McCabe?

Hitman3000

Fitzgerald mislead the Dail, that is why FF sought her resignation, this module concerns the O Higgins part of the commission of enquiry. O'Sullivan has yet to appear to deal with matters during her tenure as commissioner. As said to you earlier, you are a tad premature. I still notice how you have not retracted anything injurious to McCabes character and motives you uttered on other threads.
Your comments and faux outrage come across as quite hypocritical tbh.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Fitzgerald mislead the Dail, that is why FF sought her resignation, this module concerns the O Higgins part of the commission of enquiry. O'Sullivan has yet to appear to deal with matters during her tenure as commissioner. As said to you earlier, you are a tad premature.

What I said was "Fitzgerald and O'Sullivan do not appear to have any case to answer from any evidence to date. Of course, something else may come out later, but there is nothing currently in the public domain to suggest any serious wrongdoing on their part."

There is nothing premature in that.

Fitzgerald is owed an apology by a lot of people. Even Jim O'Callaghan is backpedalling rapidly today, moving goalposts as quick as he can.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Fitzgerald is owed an apology by a lot of people. Even Jim O'Callaghan is backpedalling rapidly today, moving goalposts as quick as he can.

O' Callaghan has defended his call for her resignation, you still wish to tie her resignation into the O'Higgins commission. She misled the Dail and the Taoiseach. Her position was not tenable. Please don't try to rewrite the past.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

What I said was "Fitzgerald and O'Sullivan do not appear to have any case to answer from any evidence to date. Of course, something else may come out later, but there is nothing currently in the public domain to suggest any serious wrongdoing on their part."

There is nothing premature in that.

Fitzgerald is owed an apology by a lot of people. Even Jim O'Callaghan is backpedalling rapidly today, moving goalposts as quick as he can.

Fitzgerald misled both her Taoiseach and the Dail - either purposely or via incompetence. Either or is not befitting of a justice minister - hence why FF insisted on her resignation, and Leo caved in.

2 x justice ministers and 2 x commissioners. Some law and order party.

No twisting of words or facts can deny that.

seamus

nc6000 wrote: »

Is Richard Bruton taking over just temporary?

After the review of the S&C agreement with Fianna Fáil, it might be timely for Leo to do a quick cabinet shuffle to stabilise the crew a bit, make sure everyone is happy/knows their place.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

What I said was "Fitzgerald and O'Sullivan do not appear to have any case to answer from any evidence to date. Of course, something else may come out later, but there is nothing currently in the public domain to suggest any serious wrongdoing on their part."

Justice Charlton had nothing but effusive praise for McCabe, mentioning decency and describing McCabe as a paradigm. I notice your energies seem to be devoted to trying to elicit an apology for O'Sullivan and Fitzgerald but yet you have nothing to say about the man who's integrity and personal life was attacked by various organs of the state.
I will leave my comments to you at that as I have seen you defend the indefensible on numerous occasions and attack a man's character even when evidence to the contrary was presented to you. Good day.

Chips Lovell

I think it's important to review what the opposition were saying when calling for Fitzgerald's head back in November. Fianna Fail justice spokesman Jim O'Callaghan said:

I want to outline to the Tanaiste Fianna Fail's criticism of her. It is this. In May 2015, the Tanaiste was aware of the strategy of the Garda Commissioner to attack and to try to personally destroy the reputation of Sergeant Maurice McCabe. We do not say that the Tanaiste formulated that strategy, we do not say that she was part of the make-up of that strategy but we say she was aware of that strategy. To use a phrase that was used elsewhere on this issue, the Tanaiste was privy to that strategy. Our criticism is that the Tanaiste did nothing to stop it. The Tanaiste did nothing to give the impression that it was wrong what was happening and, instead, she publicly sought to present herself as being supportive of Maurice McCabe and supportive of whistleblowers.

Sinn Fein leader Mary Lou McDonald meanwhile said:

We have now spent over a week discussing this email, the email which outlined the very malicious strategy designed by former Garda Commissioner Nn O'Sullivan and her legal team to destroy the reputation and the life of Sergeant Maurice McCabe. It seems to me that there was a conspiracy to ruin this honourable man and that members of An Garda Shiocana and the Tanaiste's former Department were part of this conspiracy. I say this is because the Tanaiste has refused to provide clear answers and explanations. This is the Tanaiste's last chance to answer those questions and to provide the necessary clarity.

Fitzgerald resigned, but said she believed she would be vindicated by the tribunal, so even at the time, it was seen that the tribunal would decide the truth of the matter :

Ms Fitzgerald told a Cabinet meeting on Tuesday she would be “vindicated” by the Disclosures Tribunal led by Mr Justice Peter Charleton, which is examining allegations of the smear campaign against Garda whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe.

The Tiste told her colleagues she believed she had done nothing wrong but she was resigning to avoid “an unwelcome and potentially destabilising general election”.

Now it transpires that there was no evidence of such a strategy designed by former Garda Commissioner O'Sullivan. So it wasn't even a case of whether Fitzgerald was aware of or complicit in this strategy. It didn't exist in the first place.

Now O'Callaghan is backpedaling and trying to twist things a bit, saying it was all political:

Speaking on RTE's Morning Ireland, Mr O'Callaghan said that there were "political reasons" why Fianna Fail, along with most of the Dail, lost confidence in Ms Fitzgerald.

He said that while he accepts the findings are a vindication of Ms Fitzgerald, their position in November 2017 was a political judgement, similar to Taoiseach Leo Varadkar's loss of confidence in Denis Naughten yesterday, and they had "a responsibility to act".

seamus

It does seem like O'Sullivan and Fitzgerald were smeared with allegations of collusion and corruption simply by being in close proximity to Callinan.

That's not to say O'Sullivan doesn't stink, but it does seem like Fitzgerald was unfairly scapegoated in this by the opposition parties, and her own party then threw her under the bus.

A bit like Alan Shatter; FG has not been good to its Justice Ministers.

Captain Obvious

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I think it's important to review what the opposition were saying when calling for Fitzgerald's head back in November. Fianna Fail justice spokesman Jim O'Callaghan said:


Sinn Fein leader Mary Lou McDonald meanwhile said:

Fitzgerald resigned, but said she believed she would be vindicated by the tribunal, so even at the time, it was seen that the tribunal would decide the truth of the matter :



Now it transpires that there was no evidence of such a strategy designed by former Garda Commissioner O'Sullivan. So it wasn't even a case of whether Fitzgerald was aware of or complicit in this strategy. It didn't exist in the first place.

Now O'Callaghan is backpedaling and trying to twist things a bit, saying it was all political:

Well she was an awful minister outside of this mess.

Colonel Claptrap

seamus wrote: »

That's not to say O'Sullivan doesn't stink, but it does seem like Fitzgerald was unfairly scapegoated in this by the opposition parties, and her own party then threw her under the bus.

If it was a choice between throwing the minister under a bus or allowing the opposition to collapse the government - then I think the government did right by placing country before party.

Fitzgerald was a casualty of war.

Remember, the opposition whooped and cheered in the Dail bar. They were the ones driving the bus.

Colonel Claptrap

Simon Harris has criticised Michael Martin's "disgraceful behaviour" in forcing the government to sack her. Calls for Martin and Mary Lou McDonald to correct the Dail record.

James Brown

seamus wrote: »

It does seem like O'Sullivan and Fitzgerald were smeared with allegations of collusion and corruption simply by being in close proximity to Callinan.

That's not to say O'Sullivan doesn't stink, but it does seem like Fitzgerald was unfairly scapegoated in this by the opposition parties, and her own party then threw her under the bus.

A bit like Alan Shatter; FG has not been good to its Justice Ministers.

The conclusions were drawn based on her unwillingness or inability to clarify her position at the time. If she wasn't so incompetent, giving the benefit of the doubt that it was incompetence, she wouldn't have misled the Dail and Varadkar, having him also mislead the Dail. It stank. She should have been binned on that alone.
I would call the findings vindication as regards any nefarious moves, but by no stretch grounds for an apology, even setting aside giving false information to the Dail and Leo, both herself and her department were not fit for purpose.

Pat Breen needs explain himself, setting up and attending that dinner.

McMurphy

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Simon Harris has criticised Michael Martin's "disgraceful behaviour" in forcing the government to sack her. Calls for Martin and Mary Lou McDonald to correct the Dail record.

I thought she resigned.

Chips Lovell

Of course, the most depressing thing about the entire saga is that even if the cast changes, the script will stay the same.

So if O'Callaghan had been Minister for Justice when this happened, it would be Fitzgerald and McDonald calling for his head and refusing to apologise when he was cleared.

Or if McDonald had been Minister, it would have been Fitzgerald and O'Callaghan calling for her head and refusing to apologise when she was cleared.

I honestly can't envision any of the major parties acting differently. And why would they? Voters rarely penalise opposition for opposition's sake.

seamus

Martin has sent a letter to the Taoiseach saying it is best they "both agree not to bring down the government" in light of the sensitive position that Brexit negotiations are in.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/1012/1002766-politics/

That reads to me like Martin understanding that FG are in a stronger electoral position, but signalling that whoever calls a GE right now will be called irresponsible.

Possibly also indicating that any confidence & supply agreement will only last as long as Brexit is uncertain.

James Brown

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Of course, the most depressing thing about the entire saga is that even if the cast changes, the script will stay the same.

So if O'Callaghan had been Minister for Justice when this happened, it would be Fitzgerald and McDonald calling for his head and refusing to apologise when he was cleared.

Or if McDonald had been Minister, it would have been Fitzgerald and O'Callaghan calling for her head and refusing to apologise when she was cleared.

I honestly can't envision any of the major parties acting differently. And why would they? Voters rarely penalise opposition for opposition's sake.

She wasn't cleared. She mislead the Dail and then had leo mislead the Dail.
The ongoing controversy at the time and her incompetence certainly added. She wasn't cleared of her false story to Leo and the Dail nor her incompetence.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

She wasn't cleared. She mislead the Dail and then had leo mislead the Dail.
The ongoing controversy at the time and her incompetence certainly added. She wasn't cleared of her false story to Leo and the Dail nor her incompetence.

She was accused of misleading the Dail because she didn't tell it what she knew about the O'Sullivan plan to discredit McCabe.

The Tribunal has now found that there was no O'Sullivan plan to discredit McCabe. How can she have misled the Dail if there was no such plan in the first place?

Chips Lovell

I don't really understand what you're driving at. The allegation was that there was a conspiracy underway and that she, at the very least, had been made aware of that conspiracy via emails and chose to do nothing about it.

It transpired that there was no conspiracy. So what's she guilty of then? Not remembering receiving emails that didn't incriminate her in something. OK...

cherryghost

Post-brexit elections probably on the cards, be a bad move to do so before with such uncertainty of whats to come next year.

James Brown

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I don't really understand what you're driving at. The allegation was that there was a conspiracy underway and that she, at the very least, had been made aware of that conspiracy via emails and chose to do nothing about it.

It transpired that there was no conspiracy. So what's she guilty of then? Not remembering receiving emails that didn't incriminate her in something. OK...

Anyone who said she was actively involved with a campaign to attack the integrity of McCabe should apologise IMO.

She 'resigned' because of those questions hanging over her which were exacerbated by the email she didn't see and misleading the Dail and Leo.
The point is no apology is required for her having to resign. The resignation was not just about questions people had regarding McCabe.

Personally I feel she was bad at her job, even Leo had no confidence in her department.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Anyone who said she was actively involved with a campaign to attack the integrity of McCabe should apologise IMO.

She 'resigned' because of those questions hanging over her which were exacerbated by the email she didn't see and misleading the Dail and Leo.
The point is no apology is required for her having to resign. The resignation was not just about questions people had regarding McCabe.

The questions hanging over her were why she didn't do something about a non-existent conspiracy.

Those who asked her questions then are looking a bit silly, but not as silly as those who still think her resignation was justified.

Edit: But if you have evidence that she resigned over something else, you will be able to produce a link to something, won't you?

seamus

cherryghost wrote: »

Post-brexit elections probably on the cards, be a bad move to do so before with such uncertainty of whats to come next year.

Possibly beforehand even.

If the future of Brexit were to become certain, deal or no deal, then there might be some jostling to form a new "strong and stable" government in advance of Brexit, to see Ireland through the tough times ahead.