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General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]
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Yes, the NTMA have been doing this.
Comment by the NTMA Chief Executive, Conor O’Kelly:
“As we look past Ireland’s unusually high refinancing requirements or “chimneys” out to 2020, we must remain conscious of the challenges ahead, including the risks arising from Ireland’s elevated debt levels.
Eliminating these “chimneys” - which at their peak were €60 billion over the period 2018 and 2020 - is an important step in further stabilising Ireland’s borrowing patterns and making our long-term maturity profile smoother. Taking a medium term view, once the last of the chimneys is eliminated in 2020 the annual redemption profile will be as smooth as any time in our history.
We will be in this position because Ireland has taken advantage of the low interest rate environment to issue long-term debt, locking in the benefits of this low-cost borrowing for years to come.
Since 2015, we’ve issued €67 billion of long-term debt with an average maturity of over 14 years. This means that over 50% of Ireland’s total outstanding marketable debt has been refinanced in the past four years.
This strategy is delivering substantial savings for the State and we estimate that our annual debt servicing cost will fall to €5 billion this year and is likely to fall to €4.5 billion in 2020, representing an annual saving of €3 billion on peak levels seen in 2014.
Hadn't seen much coverage of that at all - but then it's a positive story so unlikely to get highlighted in most places0 -
blackwhite wrote: »Hadn't seen much coverage of that at all - but then it's a positive story so unlikely to get highlighted in most places
It's technical, so the mainstream TV and radio stations won't report it in detail.
See the NTMA website and annual reports.0 -
Posted this over on the current affairs forum, but it's more than a bit relevant to here too.
Well I be fooked..... Who could possibly have seen this coming.....Speaking to reporters today in Longford today, Varadkar said he has received the review and met with Bailey about its conclusions last night.
However, he also confirmed that he cannot publish the report as those involved in the review spoke on condition it would not be published.
He added that he will make a statement on the conclusions of the Bailey swing case next week.
https://www.thejournal.ie/maria-bailey-report-4712733-Jul2019/
Who the hell would have guessed that he would only receive it in the days before summer recess.......
FGers, Leo's laughing at you too you know, good luck defending insurance in fraud on the doorsteps, especially after Leo's campaigns calling for people to rat out scammers.0 -
He added that he will make a statement on the conclusions of the Bailey swing case next week.
Perhaps we should wait for the statement before engaging in hysteria.0 -
Perhaps we should wait for the statement before engaging in hysteria.
There's nothing hysterical about insurance premiums in Ireland (you're in Australia aren't you?) due to spurious claims.
After her self confessed live interview, Leo had 7 weeks to sort this, kind of coincidental that it's taken him to the cusp of the summer recess to deal with.
Bailey (and possibly Madigan) and Leo's lack of leadership will cost the party dearly, the grassroot members will have the knives out over this.0 -
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Johnny Dogs wrote: »There's nothing hysterical about insurance premiums in Ireland (you're in Australia aren't you?) due to spurious claims.
Yes, your 300 + posts in the other thread will attest to your 'deep' concern on the matter of high insurance premiums of course. This is really about insurance premiums isn't it, not trying to throw mud at Leo and FG. And no, I'm not Australian, as if that has anything to do with the matter at hand.After her self confessed live interview, Leo had 7 weeks to sort this, kind of coincidental that it's taken him to the cusp of the summer recess to deal with.
Bailey (and possibly Madigan) and Leo's lack of leadership will cost the party dearly, the grassroot members will have the knives out over this.
I know you have been banging on this drum for the past 7 weeks yourself.
After being schooled on GDPR legislation, you want to go down the route of conjecture and moral panic. Which is fine, it might pass for chat in AH, but alas in this forum there is a higher standard.
So, as I said, perhaps we should wait for his statement before going all, Helen Lovejoy. If you actually want to debate about high insurance premiums and the causes of this, which are many, by all means, we as mature people can do this.0 -
Johnny Dogs wrote: »Posted this over on the current affairs forum, but it's more than a bit relevant to here too.
Well I be fooked..... Who could possibly have seen this coming.....
https://www.thejournal.ie/maria-bailey-report-4712733-Jul2019/
Who the hell would have guessed that he would only receive it in the days before summer recess.......
FGers, Leo's laughing at you too you know, good luck defending insurance in fraud on the doorsteps, especially after Leo's campaigns calling for people to rat out scammers.
Interesting discussion on debt refinancing and bond rates was taking place before we were back down to this. Ah well.
From what I can see, there has been nothing new on Bailey for weeks. Low-level politics0 -
Interesting discussion on debt refinancing and bond rates was taking place before we were back down to this. Ah well.
From what I can see, there has been nothing new on Bailey for weeks. Low-level politics
I think that's the point.
It is good that the interest rates on our generational debt have been favourable. I doubt we'll have much more of a hole in it come the next crash. Hopefully for the lads Brexit will have bitten and we can blame that.0 -
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/revealed-the-eight-senators-and-tds-docked-cash-for-poor-attendance-38290754.htmlEight members of the Oireachtas were denied the full amount of one of their annual allowances last year because of their poor attendance record at Leinster House.
An analysis of expenses paid out in 2018 by the Houses of the Oireachtas reveals six TDs and a senator were paid less than the standard Travel and Accommodation Allowance (TAA) for not attending the Dáil or Seanad for the required minimum of 120 days.
The six TDs are Sinn Féin's Pearse Doherty and Jonathan O'Brien, Solidarity's Mick Barry, People Before Profit's Gino Kenny, Independents4Change's Thomas Pringle, Independent TD Michael Harty, while the senator is independent Pádraig Ó Céidigh.
Ian Marshall, who was elected to the Seanad in April 2018, also failed to achieve a reduced required attendance level of 82 days.
Anyone spot a common feature between this band of shirkers?0 -
Harry Palmr wrote: »https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/revealed-the-eight-senators-and-tds-docked-cash-for-poor-attendance-38290754.html
Anyone spot a common feature between this band of shirkers?
I agree people should turn up to the Dail and should indeed be sanctioned for not doing so.
Sadly we've folk threading these boards who will say 'they were off doing their jobs, they should be out at clinics etc.'. Which is true but surely there's a better balance.
This from today:Fine Gael TD Maria Bailey could have her role as chair of the Housing Committee removed this week over her swing-case controversy.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/maria-bailey-may-lose-committee-chair-over-swing-gate-935367.html
I hope she steadies herself with two free hands before she leaves the chair.0 -
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It turns out that the Government have been prisiding over a compleat sham when it comes to the provision of public services in Irish. It has been said ad infinatium that the government fully supports the right of citizens to use Irish if they want to do so, but research by the COimisinéir Teanga has found that there is no requirement for 99.06% of public sector works to speak a word of Irish and as such, the provision of public services to the public through Irish is delivered almost entirely on a volentary basis by staff.0
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So are the services being delivered through Irish as required or not?It turns out that the Government have been prisiding over a compleat sham when it comes to the provision of public services in Irish. It has been said ad infinatium that the government fully supports the right of citizens to use Irish if they want to do so, but research by the COimisinéir Teanga has found that there is no requirement for 99.06% of public sector works to speak a word of Irish and as such, the provision of public services to the public through Irish is delivered almost entirely on a volentary basis by staff.0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »So are the services being delivered through Irish as required or not?
For the most part, no. Irish speakers for the most part don't even bother asking for a service in Irish. We have long since learned that you are usually left banging your head against a wall.0 -
Yeah I think the public service has bigger issues personally0
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Yeah I think the public service has bigger issues personally
Do you imagine that the state is only capable of dealing with one issue at a time? Or is this just a snide way of saying that the issue should never be addressed and Irish people should be forced to conduct business with their state through English only forevermore?0 -
Do you imagine that the state is only capable of dealing with one issue at a time? Or is this just a snide way of saying that the issue should never be addressed and Irish people should be forced to conduct business with their state through English only forevermore?
The problem is that people don't want to learn irish - a problem endemic to a large chunk of the population.
I've been looking into learning Irish, and the civil service offers a good set of discounts on certain courses. But then they run into an issue - they can't force people to take up the courses and learn Irish (and even then, it would take some considerable time before people were fluent).
There's a considerable churn of employees within the service as it stands, and I'm not sure if they're in a position to turn down replacements because they can't speak Irish to a working level. If only some small fraction of the population can speak it, how many of those fluent speakers go on to apply for the civil service? How many currently within the service have the time, or can afford to, take the many, many hours of classes required to get to a working standard.
I've no major commitments outside work, so I have the time to go to classes in the evening. But from looking it up, there's not actually a huge variety of classes on at times friendly for full time employees. And unless a very large number of people within the CS look for lessons, it's not worth the cost of bringing in tutors for private classes during work hours.
The lack of irish speaking civil servants is a symptom of the larger issue - a lack of irish speaking citizens. There's only so much the government can do to fix the problem if people straight up don't want to learn the language.0 -
The lack of irish speaking civil servants is a symptom of the larger issue - a lack of irish speaking citizens. There's only so much the government can do to fix the problem if people straight up don't want to learn the language.
While this is true to an extent, the reality is that the state has never tried to do anything to address the issue. There is only so much that can be done, but the amount that has been done is nothing. For example, despite being told to identify positions that require and Irish speaking member of staff, there are numerous government departments that have failed to identify even a single position. There are over six thousand staff in the department of social wellfare, but not one of those positions has been identified as requireing Irish. You tell me how that department is supposed to provide any service at all through Irish in that case?
Is it impossible to do basic things like this? No, its just ignored.0 -
For example, despite being told to identify positions that require and Irish speaking member of staff, there are numerous government departments that have failed to identify even a single position.
That's because there is no demand. Are you suggesting they should designate positions anyway just to tick a box?
It's all a farce anyway when both parties to any conversation can speak English.
It would be more useful for the public service to look into providing some basic level of service in Polish, Lithuanian, Mandarin etc. all of whom have actual native speakers here who have limited or no English, instead of just refusing to use the native-speaker level English they have.© 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »That's because there is no demand. Are you suggesting they should designate positions anyway just to tick a box?
It's all a farce anyway when both parties to any conversation can speak English.
It would be more useful for the public service to look into providing some basic level of service in Polish, Lithuanian, Mandarin etc. all of whom have actual native speakers here who have limited or no English, instead of just refusing to use the native-speaker level English they have.
The point is they should have it available if they say it is.
It's hardly going to encourage it if it's not available.0 -
Hotblack Desiato wrote: »That's because there is no demand. Are you suggesting they should designate positions anyway just to tick a box?
There is little demand because Irish speakers are well aware that there is no point in asking for a service in Irish because they are not available and all they will end up doing is banging their head against a wall. You don't designate positions to tick a box, you do it so that at least a basic level of services can be provided through Irish so that people can actually use Irish when dealing with the state and not continue a system whereby Irish speakers have essentially been trained not to use their own language when dealing with the state.
People have a right to use Irish and not just be forced by the Irish state to speak English.0 -
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Imreoir2 wrote:There is little demand because Irish speakers are well aware that there is no point in asking for a service in Irish because they are not available and all they will end up doing is banging their head against a wall. You don't designate positions to tick a box, you do it so that at least a basic level of services can be provided through Irish so that people can actually use Irish when dealing with the state and not continue a system whereby Irish speakers have essentially been trained not to use their own language when dealing with the state.
How do provide a basic level of service where their simply isn't the required number of speakers to provide the service? There is only in the region of maybe 100k people who speak the language on a daily basis. If you add in the number of people who have a good conversational level of Irish you'll get a bit more. However not all of those people will be of working age and even of those who are of working age do they have the qualifications and experience to do the wide variety of roles. And even after all that do those people want to work in the jobs you are talking about.
The issue with the number of speakers also raises a problem when it comes to vote. It's only an issue for a small segment of the population. No government is going to look at the things you are talking about ahead of housing, health care etc.0 -
How do provide a basic level of service where their simply isn't the required number of speakers to provide the service? There is only in the region of maybe 100k people who speak the language on a daily basis. If you add in the number of people who have a good conversational level of Irish you'll get a bit more. However not all of those people will be of working age and even of those who are of working age do they have the qualifications and experience to do the wide variety of roles. And even after all that do those people want to work in the jobs you are talking about.
The issue with the number of speakers also raises a problem when it comes to vote. It's only an issue for a small segment of the population. No government is going to look at the things you are talking about ahead of housing, health care etc.
What information is your claim based on? Before you can say that the available number of speakers is insufficient to fill the required number of positions to provide a basic service in Irish, you really would need to know what the required number of staff would be. Given that in many government departments the existing number of positions that are deisgnated as requiring Irish is zero, I somehow doubt that any great dificulty would be encountered in at least improving the situation.
Your point also ignores the reality that there are quite a few Irish speakers already working in the public service, but not in roles that have been designated as requireing Irish and as such these people are not effectivly utalised in providing a service in Irish.
No government is required to look at this issue ahead of housing or health care. People seem to have a really strange concept of how government works, it's really not a linear one issue at a time opperation.0 -
Imreoir2 wrote:What information is your claim based on? Before you can say that the available number of speakers is insufficient to fill the required number of positions to provide a basic service in Irish, you really would need to know what the required number of staff would be. Given that in many government departments the existing number of positions that are deisgnated as requiring Irish is zero, I somehow doubt that any great dificulty would be encountered in at least improving the situation.
It's an educated guess but I'll explain my logic feel free to disagree.
First off you have a far far smaller pool of Irish speakers than English speakers. We know that from census figures. It's also completely unreasonable to expect all of these people to be of working age. Based on the most recent census figures you are looking at a figures of around 80/90k odd. It's also where the core demand is coming from. For context the total population is 4.5 million.
Secondly most 3rd level/post second level courses are done through English. That's based on how few courses are done through Irish. So even if a person is fluent in Irish they may not have the vocabulary or confidence required to conduct a role through Irish in a technical area.
Thirdly even out of your 80/90k starting figure they all might not want to work in the roles available. Remember at each you reduce your pool of qualified people.
Now that's my logic.
The fact that they certain departments have designated the number of people who need to speak Irish as zero shouldn't be a surprise. It's a natural consequence of the relatively small number of speakers and the fact they are not concentrated in one location. Another indication of demand is that the tiny amount of people who filled the census out in Irish.0 -
It's an educated guess but I'll explain my logic feel free to disagree.
First off you have a far far smaller pool of Irish speakers than English speakers. We know that from census figures. It's also completely unreasonable to expect all of these people to be of working age. Based on the most recent census figures you are looking at a figures of around 80/90k odd. It's also where the core demand is coming from. For context the total population is 4.5 million.
Secondly most 3rd level/post second level courses are done through English. That's based on how few courses are done through Irish. So even if a person is fluent in Irish they may not have the vocabulary or confidence required to conduct a role through Irish in a technical area.
Thirdly even out of your 80/90k starting figure they all might not want to work in the roles available. Remember at each you reduce your pool of qualified people.
Now that's my logic.
The fact that they certain departments have designated the number of people who need to speak Irish as zero shouldn't be a surprise. It's a natural consequence of the relatively small number of speakers and the fact they are not concentrated in one location. Another indication of demand is that the tiny amount of people who filled the census out in Irish.
I am not disagreeing with your point about the limited population of Irish speakers, just questioning your leap to the conclusion that this limited population would not be capable of providing the required number of staff to provide a basic level of state services through Irish. The number of staff required to provide such a service is a key consideration, and one which you have ignored in making your claim. On that basis I think you claim is questionable at best.
I disagree that it is not surprising that there are several government departments that are ignoring the constitutional rights of tens of thousands of Irish citizens, I would consider it quite surprising, and personally I am far less inclined than you to try to find reasons to justify the lazyness of our government.
Let's put it this way, currently there are around 20,000 people working in the various government departments. As a percentage of the populaton, that comes out at just about 0.45% of the population. So, 0.45% of the population provides core state services to the population. If we take the population of Irish speakers to be 100,000, then there should be something like 450 people in government departments providing services in Irish, but in reality there are 84, that is less than a fifth of the number you should have just to have an equal ratio of public servants to populaton.
Either the population of Irish speakers is drasticallty less able to produce capable civil servants than the population of the country as a whole, or there is something wrong with state policy when it comes to providing services in Irish. I am going to hazard a guess that the second option is closer to the truth.0 -
Imreoir2 wrote:I disagree that it is not surprising that there are several government departments that are ignoring the constitutional rights of tens of thousands of Irish citizens, I would consider it quite surprising, and personally I am far less inclined than you to try to find reasons to justify the lazyness of our government.
The issue is money. They are not ignoring it if Irish speakers are not demanding it. You yourself admit that Irish people don't ask for services through Irish. How are different departments supposed to know of this demand if people don't turn up and ask. And remember Irish speakers are not concentrated in one area so have to demand it off a lot of different people Departments are not hive minds. Why spend money on something people don't want? There are limitless things for the government to spend money on.
The government has limited amounts of money. My biggest criticism of the government and opposition parties is that they are in danger of repeating the mistakes of the mid 2000's where government spending was increased to unsustainable levels. Given the chances of a hard brexit are increasing and the pressure on our corporation tax and the potential for rule changes that could reduce the tax take(even if the rate remains the same) there. There doesn't seem to much caution exercised or demanded from political parties in general.0 -
The issue is money. They are not ignoring it if Irish speakers are not demanding it. You yourself admit that Irish people don't ask for services through Irish. How are different departments supposed to know of this demand if people don't turn up and ask. And remember Irish speakers are not concentrated in one area so have to demand it off a lot of different people Departments are not hive minds. Why spend money on something people don't want? There are limitless things for the government to spend money on.
The government has limited amounts of money. My biggest criticism of the government and opposition parties is that they are in danger of repeating the mistakes of the mid 2000's where government spending was increased to unsustainable levels. Given the chances of a hard brexit are increasing and the pressure on our corporation tax and the potential for rule changes that could reduce the tax take(even if the rate remains the same) there. There doesn't seem to much caution exercised or demanded from political parties in general.
Why are you talking about spending money? What makes you think it is more expencive to provide a service through Irish than providing the same service through English? This is not an issue that requires money to be thrown at it, it is an issue of HR managment. There are plenty of Irish speakers already employed in the civil service, but they are not utalised effectiivly to provide services in Irish.
As I said, over 80% of the civil servants that should be providing services in Irish are missing. That does not mean that there are significantly less Irish speakers in the civil service than you would expect as a proportion of the population, it is just that they are in roles not designatied as requireing Irish and as such are not providing services through Irish. There are actually more than the 450 Irish speakers you would expect to find in the civil services by population, but they spend their days providing services in English while services provision in Irish is neglected. The problem is poorly allocated resources and a lack of strategic planning to address the issue, the issue is not money.0 -
Imreoir2 wrote:Why are you talking about spending money? What makes you think it is more expencive to provide a service through Irish than providing the same service through English? This is not an issue that requires money to be thrown at it, it is an issue of HR managment. There are plenty of Irish speakers already employed in the civil service, but they are not utalised effectiivly to provide services in Irish.
How many fluent Irish speakers are there in the civil service?
How many jobs are there that require Irish in the civil service?
Where are these jobs based and what skillets are required to do these jobs? Remember the civil and public sector in general is not a monolithic organisation and cover a wide variety of different jobs
Do the skillets, locations, salaries of the jobs match the pool of potential applicants?
Does every fluent Irish speaker want to work in a job that requires them interact with the public and interact with the public through Irish?
And of course its about spending money. Even in non unionised workplaces you may have to look at spending money to get people to change jobs and or location. Never mind a highly unionised place like the civil service. The minute you go near a person's terms of work you open up a can of wormd
And that before you look at opportunity cost of this money and the lack of apparent demand that you acknowledge.
If it was as simple as you suggest it would have been done years and years ago. Governments like easy wins.0 -
How many fluent Irish speakers are there in the civil service?
Around 550.How many jobs are there that require Irish in the civil service?
Currently 84 have been designated as requireing Irsh.Where are these jobs based and what skillets are required to do these jobs? Remember the civil and public sector in general is not a monolithic organisation and cover a wide variety of different jobs
Do the skillets, locations, salaries of the jobs match the pool of potential applicants?
Does every fluent Irish speaker want to work in a job that requires them interact with the public and interact with the public through Irish?
I do not have access to that informaton, and I doubt that it has been compiled because the whole issue has been neglected by the state.And of course its about spending money. Even in non unionised workplaces you may have to look at spending money to get people to change jobs and or location. Never mind a highly unionised place like the civil service. The minute you go near a person's terms of work you open up a can of wormd
And that before you look at opportunity cost of this money and the lack of apparent demand that you acknowledge.
I acknologe that requireing existng staff to change roles etc, so that the state can provide an adequate service to the public is no simple matter. The reason this problem exists now is becasue no plan was put in place to address the issue of providng adequate servces in Irish years ago. True enough, as a result of this neglect over years, you can't now just snap your fingers and transfer all of the existing staff to new roles to provide such a service overnight and expect no problems. You can however develop the kind of plan that should have been implemented years ago, identify the staff numbers and distrbuton needed to probvide such a service and begin to undo the misallocaton of resources over time by designating roles as needing Irish where necessary, transfering staff where possible, identifyng skills deficts where they exist and addressing them and filling in remaning gaps through normal recruitment over time. It can't be fixed overnight, but it can be fixed at no major cost over time, if the will was there to do it.If it was as simple as you suggest it would have been done years and years ago. Governments like easy wins.
I am not suggesting it is simple, I am suggesting that the state has been lazy and neglectful in this area and has allowed this problem to build to a point where tens of thousands of citizens are denied their constitutional language rights.
The lack of apparent demand exists because the problem has been allowed to become so systemic that citizens no longer even bother to seek to access services through Irish. That this is the case is not a valid arguement to continue with a broken system.0 -
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That's because they made a business decision to designation locations as bi-lingual rather than designating individual posts - a fairly sensible approach;For example, despite being told to identify positions that require and Irish speaking member of staff, there are numerous government departments that have failed to identify even a single position. There are over six thousand staff in the department of social wellfare, but not one of those positions has been identified as requireing Irish. You tell me how that department is supposed to provide any service at all through Irish in that case?
https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/OLA-Scheme-2015-2018.aspx4.9 Designated Irish Language Posts
As part of the Department’s workforce planning process Principals in the Department are invited to identify posts which should be filled by staff capable of providing a service through Irish. Following consultation with Heads of Divisions, the Department has concluded that the delivery of business through Irish will be better serviced by designating locations that require a bi-lingual officer rather than developing a framework of designated functional bi-lingual posts which is considered to be too restrictive.
Assigning functional bi-lingual officers by location irrespective of grade means that the Department can draw from available PAS functional bilingual panels in the required location irrespective of grade and also through internal staff who are willing to provide a service through Irish.0
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