General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So leasing and buying over building is more complicated and somehow legitimised? I have at great pains endeavoured to make it as simple as possible.

You are copping out here. All you are saying is if we spend on one thing we need spend less on another. That's a pointless non argument. Maybe use the Lease, buy, rent money to build? We've been here before. I once showed all the FG plan housing spends and suggested they be moved towards building. This was some time ago. This is the part where you say something like 'what about the people who need housing now?' etc. It's not an either or, we could go your mixed approach, but heavy on the building.

I never said leasing and buying over building, I said leasing and buying along with building, which is what is being done. I know you have tried to make it as simple as possible, but solving the housing problem isn't simple.

If we go a mixed approach, heavy on the building, we can't afford the NCH or the Metro. Choices, my friend. If leasing buys a few years, until we have both the capacity and finance to build more social housing, then that is good.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

I never said leasing and buying over building, I said leasing and buying along with building, which is what is being done. I know you have tried to make it as simple as possible, but solving the housing problem isn't simple.

If we go a mixed approach, heavy on the building, we can't afford the NCH or the Metro. Choices, my friend. If leasing buys a few years, until we have both the capacity and finance to build more social housing, then that is good.

And all I have ever said is more builds and explained why. I never said no renting or buying, we shouldn't be, but if it's needed. In the past we only bought in emergency circumstances, it's common place policy now.

That suggests building might be the goal. It's obviously not. Before the NCH, (which is on the government for not even knowing there was a ball to keep an eye on) it was Brexit, before that Lehmans. We had money for Irish Water and metering though and Reilly to put clinics anywhere he wanted. See what I mean? I don't buy into the can't find the money. Based on the last two governments we can.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

And all I have ever said is more builds and explained why. I never said no renting or buying, we shouldn't be, but if it's needed. In the past we only bought in emergency circumstances, it's common place policy now.

That suggests building might be the goal. It's obviously not. Before the NCH it was Brexit, before that Lehmans. We had money for Irish Water and metering though and Reilly to put clinics anywhere he wanted. See what I mean? I don't buy into the can't find the money. Based on the last two governments we can.

Well, priorities my friend, we are building social housing, more than we did under the FF governments of the boom, but we also have other long-standing finance problems, mainly caused by FF, but not helped by the NCH.

Buying and leasing will be part of the solution for the best part of the next decade, anyone who tells you otherwise is either lying or believes in the taxation of unicorns and rainbows.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, priorities my friend, we are building social housing, more than we did under the FF governments of the boom, but we also have other long-standing finance problems, mainly caused by FF, but not helped by the NCH.

Buying and leasing will be part of the solution for the best part of the next decade, anyone who tells you otherwise is either lying or believes in the taxation of unicorns and rainbows.

IW was not a priority during a time of austerity. Doing knock down sweet deals on Siteserv and NAMA selling off, (to buy back in some cases) was not a priority, nor was Reilly's clinics, but they got done.
Fianna Fail started the ball rolling for the current crises there is no dispute but I'll tell you this much, FF will do more to genuinely tackle it than FG, should FF get in and that's a shame on FG to be shown up by FF.

It's the very length of time lets your argument down. The longer you lease or rent something the better option building your own becomes. Your argument would hold more merit if we only leased or rented to get over a rough patch.

Bishop of hope

Just as you mention Irish Water there Matt, them lads are laughing all the way to the bank.

https://extra.ie/2019/12/15/news/irish-news/irish-water-staff-bonuses-as-families

James Brown

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Just as you mention Irish Water there Matt, them lads are laughing all the way to the bank.

https://extra.ie/2019/12/15/news/irish-news/irish-water-staff-bonuses-as-families

The laughing would be yoga class.

I recall talk of entrenched unions with boiler plate deals can't be negotiated etc. etc. Here we had a brand new outfit and they started by stuffing the board with chancers. Anyway, it's been done, just wait on the Siteserv findings.

beggars_bush

what are the government going to do when a load of childcare providers shut in the new year?
due to huge hikes in insurance

the whole sector should be run by the state in the first place.

the government could easily set up a state backed insurance scheme for the sector

blanch152

beggars_bush wrote: »

the government could easily set up a state backed insurance scheme for the sector

The compensation class would love that.

beggars_bush

blanch152 wrote: »

The compensation class would love that.

it works in other countries.

its up to the judicial system to reform their handouts and penalties for perjury.

blanch152

beggars_bush wrote: »

it works in other countries.

its up to the judicial system to reform their handouts and penalties for perjury.

The last Justice Minister to propose any form of judicial reform ended up being hounded out of office on dubious grounds.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

The compensation class would love that.

Bailey and Farrell had their cards marked I'd doubt they'll try it. Also it's more on the Judges/payouts. If that dries up or is so low it's not worth it things will improve. Anyway folk, (SF/FG) reckon the Insurance companies are exaggerating the problem.

Colonel Claptrap

The government has provided immediate extra funding to support struggling creches around the country.

Very quiet in here this morning.

Scoundrel

blanch152 wrote: »

The compensation class would love that.

It's ok I don't think they'll allow Maria or Alan into creches.

beggars_bush

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

The government has provided immediate extra funding to support struggling creches around the country.

Very quiet in here this morning.

throwing money at the problem won't help

the whole sector is a shambles

tayto lover

So Leo Varadkar has come out and said he is happy that Verona Murphy was not elected. This after he joined her on the canvas????

Hypocrisy knows no bounds.
Has Leo no self respect?

Bishop of hope

Interesting to see the failed water charges stunt at paying for over usage pushed back again, at least till 2021, but that it seems won't be the last pushback.
I'd say FG and definitely Labour rue the day they started this pet.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/charges-for-wasting-water-put-back-for-yet-another-year-38823897.html

beggars_bush

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Interesting to see the failed water charges stunt at paying for over usage pushed back again, at least till 2021, but that it seems won't be the last pushback.
I'd say FG and definitely Labour rue the day they started this pet.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/charges-for-wasting-water-put-back-for-yet-another-year-38823897.html

Why?
It needs to be introduced

Bishop of hope

beggars_bush wrote: »

Why?
It needs to be introduced

How though, they haven't installed the meters, and why is it being pushed back again I wonder, might it have something to do with an election?
Basically in its six years of existence it has done nothing but cost money and push on from one blunder of price intros and delays and pushback to another.
It might well succeed in the future, but this FG crowd have made a hames of their end of it

beggars_bush

Bishop of hope wrote: »

How though, they haven't installed the meters, and why is it being pushed back again I wonder, might it have something to do with an election?
Basically in its six years of existence it has done nothing but cost money and push on from one blunder of price intros and delays and pushback to another.
It might well succeed in the future, but this FG crowd have made a hames of their end of it

What part of the country doesn't yet have meters?

Putting in a meter should have been part of the planning process for 30 years

James Brown

beggars_bush wrote: »

What part of the country doesn't yet have meters?

Putting in a meter should have been part of the planning process for 30 years

Not when it's covered under general taxation. What would be the point?

Bishop of hope

beggars_bush wrote: »

What part of the country doesn't yet have meters?

Putting in a meter should have been part of the planning process for 30 years

I live in a house a lot less than 30, or even 20, no meter.
No meters on any of our neighbouring houses.
The meter men weren't allowed into a lot of estates during the protest either, I'd say that less than 50% of houses have meters, not many apartments have them either.

beggars_bush

Bishop of hope wrote: »

I live in a house a lot less than 30, or even 20, no meter.
No meters on any of our neighbouring houses.
The meter men weren't allowed into a lot of estates during the protest either, I'd say that less than 50% of houses have meters, not many apartments have them either.

Want services, won't pay for them

Meters are needed as water will be a scarce commodity in a few years

McMurphy

beggars_bush wrote: »

Why?
It needs to be introduced

No it doesn't.

An independent expert commission, established by fg reached the conclusion that it doesn't.

Bishop of hope

beggars_bush wrote: »

Want services, won't pay for them

Meters are needed as water will be a scarce commodity in a few years

Who pays for them then.
Do the Govt dig in to their own pockets?
I'm not against charges, but I'm just saying it is a totally failed policy by the last two FG govts.
Like a lot of other stuff they didn't handle it well.

James Brown

beggars_bush wrote: »

Want services, won't pay for them

Meters are needed as water will be a scarce commodity in a few years

This idea that people live off the state getting freebies forgets the fact that the state belongs to the people and every cent the state has comes from the people. The idea that there's some class of well to do people overseeing society and the average tax payer is just a chancer looking for freebies is way out of line IMO.
What we had was badly managed services, we funded and due to that mismanagement, government using it as a rod to con the tax payer like it was the tax payers fault.
The tax payer paid these people to supply services such as water. They willfully neglected it and now it's 'want services, won't pay for them'? Give over. Funny how water became suddenly so important when they could look after their own, set up a quango and give out a sweet metering contract.
Is 50% still going wasted from mains leaks?

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

This idea that people live off the state getting freebies forgets the fact that the state belongs to the people and every cent the state has comes from the people. The idea that there's some class of well to do people overseeing society and the average tax payer is just a chancer looking for freebies is way out of line IMO.
What we had was badly managed services, we funded and due to that mismanagement, government using it as a rod to con the tax payer like it was the tax payers fault.
The tax payer paid these people to supply services such as water. They willfully neglected it and now it's 'want services, won't pay for them'? Give over. Funny how water became suddenly so important when they could look after their own, set up a quango and give out a sweet metering contract.
Is 50% still going wasted from mains leaks?

Another fact-free analysis that doesn't appear to have any logic.

On the issue of people living off the state, there was an article today in the Irish Independent that set out some shocking facts:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-in-nine-children-brought-up-in-home-with-no-working-adult-38828357.html

"Despite the huge pick-up in employment, the Labour Force Survey (LFS) has shown that the proportion of Irish children in jobless households is significantly above the EU average."

"The LFS data shows that 11.4pc of children in Ireland live in a jobless household, compared with an EU average of 9.4pc."

Over 20% more children in Ireland than the EU average live in a jobless household, that is just a shocking indicator of the extent and permanency of the welfare class in Ireland. I can't find the full survey online yet, but it would make interesting reading to know if the statistics have looked at the inter-generational aspect of that. One of the biggest challenges facing the state in the next decade is addressing this welfare dependency culture.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Another fact-free analysis that doesn't appear to have any logic.

..... is addressing this welfare dependency culture.

He said:

beggars_bush wrote: »

Want services, won't pay for them

Meters are needed as water will be a scarce commodity in a few years

Then I said...."This idea that people live off the state getting freebies forgets the fact that the state belongs to the people and every cent the state has comes from the people." (read above).

Spinning yarns creating an argument nobody is making. Not relevant to my comments nor the comments I was addressing. Happy New Year.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

He said:



Then I said...."This idea that people live off the state getting freebies forgets the fact that the state belongs to the people and every cent the state has comes from the people." (read above).

Spinning yarns creating an argument nobody is making. Not relevant to my comments nor the comments I was addressing. Happy New Year.

You dismissed the idea of people living off the state getting freebies with some platitudes, and with the absence of any factual or evidential context.

I have put forward a factual analysis (and it is not a new analysis, it is pretty much an accepted real problem) that demonstrated the reality of a welfare class in Ireland living off the state getting freebies that is much bigger than in equivalent EU states. I really don't see the problem with providing factual information to contradict anecdotal wanderings about water metering contracts.

Bishop of hope

blanch152 wrote: »

Another fact-free analysis that doesn't appear to have any logic.

On the issue of people living off the state, there was an article today in the Irish Independent that set out some shocking facts:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-in-nine-children-brought-up-in-home-with-no-working-adult-38828357.html

"Despite the huge pick-up in employment, the Labour Force Survey (LFS) has shown that the proportion of Irish children in jobless households is significantly above the EU average."

"The LFS data shows that 11.4pc of children in Ireland live in a jobless household, compared with an EU average of 9.4pc."

Over 20% more children in Ireland than the EU average live in a jobless household, that is just a shocking indicator of the extent and permanency of the welfare class in Ireland. I can't find the full survey online yet, but it would make interesting reading to know if the statistics have looked at the inter-generational aspect of that. One of the biggest challenges facing the state in the next decade is addressing this welfare dependency culture.

Let me know which party is promising to tackle this in their manifesto.
I remember a certain minister not too long ago on his way to the top job promising to root out fraud, which turned out to be not as bad as stated iirc.
It's always someone else's fault, they won't pay, they are so dependent, they always want....etc.
Its never about the incompetence and waste.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

You dismissed the idea of people living off the state getting freebies with some platitudes, and with the absence of any factual or evidential context.

I have put forward a factual analysis (and it is not a new analysis, it is pretty much an accepted real problem) that demonstrated the reality of a welfare class in Ireland living off the state getting freebies that is much bigger than in equivalent EU states. I really don't see the problem with providing factual information to contradict anecdotal wanderings about water metering contracts.

I did not. The comment was "Want services, won't pay for them". We pay taxes for services.
You seem to be stating that some people live off the state, pay little tax, but this isn't a Dara Murphy, Denis O'Brien, vulture fund discussion.