General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

blanch152

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Let me know which party is promising to tackle this in their manifesto.
I remember a certain minister not too long ago on his way to the top job promising to root out fraud, which turned out to be not as bad as stated iirc.
It's always someone else's fault, they won't pay, they are so dependent, they always want....etc.
Its never about the incompetence and waste.

No party is going to explicitly address this in their manifesto, immediately they would be a soft target for the media, scrooges, trying to take money off the poor etc. You just have to look at the usual suspects on here who would endlessly and relentlessly post the same mantra time and again about it (probably adding in a line that Denis O'Brien wrote the party manifesto).

Best thing to do is to look at which parties are actively targetting votes from that section of society and avoid them, because they are most unlikely to address it.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

No party is going to explicitly address this in their manifesto, immediately they would be a soft target for the media, scrooges, trying to take money off the poor etc. You just have to look at the usual suspects on here who would endlessly and relentlessly post the same mantra time and again about it (probably adding in a line that Denis O'Brien wrote the party manifesto).

Best thing to do is to look at which parties are actively targetting votes from that section of society and avoid them, because they are most unlikely to address it.

Indeed.

Budget 2019: Spending boost for welfare, health, housing as FF/FG agree to review confidence deal
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/budget-2019-spending-boost-for-welfare-health-housing-as-ff-fg-agree-to-review-confidence-deal-1.3656924

PBP and Gino bullying FG no doubt...

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I did not. The comment was "Want services, won't pay for them". We pay taxes for services.
You seem to be stating that some people live off the state, pay little tax, but this isn't a Dara Murphy, Denis O'Brien, vulture fund discussion.

You just proved my point about factless anecdotes.

I have presented statistics showing that 20% more children than the EU average grow up in jobless households in Ireland, and your rebuttal consists of Denis O'Brien, Dara Murphy and vulture funds, rather than addressing the wider and bigger cultural issue of the welfare class in Ireland. As long as you can point to a bogeyman (or woman) of some kind, be that Leo, Eoghan, Denis, Maria etc. etc., you think that you can dismiss any amount of factual information, but it just doesn't work like that in rational discussion.

Bogeymen come and go, it was CJH forty years ago, it is Denis O'Brien now, but there are always those who prefer to discuss bogeymen rather than actual facts. In the meantime, the real issues get missed.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

You just proved my point about factless anecdotes.

I have presented statistics showing that 20% more children than the EU average grow up in jobless households in Ireland, and your rebuttal consists of Denis O'Brien, Dara Murphy and vulture funds, rather than addressing the wider and bigger cultural issue of the welfare class in Ireland. As long as you can point to a bogeyman (or woman) of some kind, be that Leo, Eoghan, Denis, Maria etc. etc., you think that you can dismiss any amount of factual information, but it just doesn't work like that in rational discussion.

Bogeymen come and go, it was CJH forty years ago, it is Denis O'Brien now, but there are always those who prefer to discuss bogeymen rather than actual facts. In the meantime, the real issues get missed.

Blanch, you are discussing the rates/levels of people living off/on the welfare system. I am not and was not. I didn't supply data because it wasn't required. The only statement of fact I made was that we pay taxes for services.
It was suggested, "Want services, won't pay for them". I refuted that saying we pay taxes for services and expanded by stating the fact that every red cent the state has comes from the tax payer, (unless borrowed on behalf of the tax payer).
So in short, you are creating and fighting an argument only you are engaged in. Now it's devolved into a crazed critique of me. Have fun.

beggars_bush

1 in 9 families in Ireland have two parents who have NEVER worked according to recent data.
Think about the implications of that for society and the children in those households and what their future is.

Want services, won't pay for them.

You can't pay taxes when you're scratching your arse all day

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Blanch152 and Matt Barrett. You were were warned several months ago to cut out the ceaseless bickering. You ignored that warning. Please don't post on this thread again. If you take this carry on to other threads, I'll ban you both from the entire forum.

Liberta Per Gli Ultra

beggars_bush wrote: »

1 in 9 families in Ireland have two parents who have NEVER worked according to recent data.

Where's the link to confirm the statement?

beggars_bush wrote: »

Think about the implications of that for society and the children in those households and what their future is.

I'd be more concerned for the wealthy and privileged families in Ireland. There's a guy on this forum who mentions automation getting rid of "low skilled" jobs in the future, every single time he posts. Add that to this big evil "welfare class" we have and suddenly all the bankers and all the other usurers won't have any minimum wage slaves anymore. The poor banker from Foxrock will have to do some honest manual labour, wherever automation can't be applied.

beggars_bush wrote: »

You can't pay taxes when you're scratching your arse all day

I'd say paying taxes would be down the agenda for most in that spot, sounds like a medical condition. No worries though, we have a crackin' health service in Ireland thanks to FF/FG.

beggars_bush

Liberta Per Gli Ultra wrote: »

Where's the link to confirm the statement?



I'd be more concerned for the wealthy and privileged families in Ireland. There's a guy on this forum who mentions automation getting rid of "low skilled" jobs in the future, every single time he posts. Add that to this big evil "welfare class" we have and suddenly all the bankers and all the other usurers won't have any minimum wage slaves anymore. The poor banker from Foxrock will have to do some honest manual labour, wherever automation can't be applied.



I'd say paying taxes would be down the agenda for most in that spot, sounds like a medical condition. No worries though, we have a crackin' health service in Ireland thanks to FF/FG.

There you go

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-in-nine-children-brought-up-in-home-with-no-working-adult-38828357.html
Ok, it's 1 in 9 is jobless
But there are jobs available on any building site going for someone prepared to work
Or apprenticeships

I'll find that other data

Colonel Claptrap

State to post €1.5bn budget surplus for 2019, according to finance minister.

beggars_bush

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

State to post €1.5bn budget surplus for 2019, according to finance minister.

Put it in a bank, the national children's hospital will need it

McMurphy

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

State to post €1.5bn budget surplus for 2019, according to finance minister.

Ssssshhhhhh,

Don't be making that public knowledge - there's housing/health crises that need looked at, and the siteserv inquiry still needs to be concluded (how much will that ultimately cost us?)

And not forgetting the already waaaaaaay over budget NCH..... The builders hear that extra cash is hanging around and no knowing what unexpected pitfalls may arise in its construction.......

Bishop of hope

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

State to post €1.5bn budget surplus for 2019, according to finance minister.

That's pretty good, I hope they make the right decisions on where to use it up.

is_that_so

Bishop of hope wrote: »

That's pretty good, I hope they make the right decisions on where to use it up.

Saving it for the annual HSE black hole!

Geuze

Bishop of hope wrote: »

That's pretty good, I hope they make the right decisions on where to use it up.

Any fiscal surplus is used to repay debt.

christy c

Geuze wrote: »

Any fiscal surplus is used to repay debt.

Didn't know that. In this case might it better to put that in the rainy day fund given the volatile nature of the corporate tax? Paying down debt would mean we'd have to borrow when the sh1t hits the fan at probable worse rates.

beggars_bush

It's been a great week so far for the government

Wonder what other clangers they can drop

Geuze

christy c wrote: »

Didn't know that. In this case might it better to put that in the rainy day fund given the volatile nature of the corporate tax? Paying down debt would mean we'd have to borrow when the sh1t hits the fan at probable worse rates.

I'm curious as to what you think happens to any fiscal surplus?

It is used to build up assets (rainy day fund) or repay debt, which both lead to lower net debt.

Bishop of hope

On my Google news feed this morning, aontu have started a online petition for Simon Harris removal as health minister for incompetence basically.
All the top lads coming under pressure, a bad start to pre election months of 2020 for FG, compounded by their own stupidity in feeding it.

Wanderer78

Bishop of hope wrote:

On my Google news feed this morning, aontu have started a online petition for Simon Harris removal as health minister for incompetence basically. All the top lads coming under pressure, a bad start to pre election months of 2020 for FG, compounded by their own stupidity in feeding it.

Ah they won't get another term anyway, it ll be ff again, with nothing really changing

Idbatterim

Bishop of hope wrote: »

That's pretty good, I hope they make the right decisions on where to use it up.

Welfare buy off

Idbatterim

beggars_bush wrote: »

1 in 9 families in Ireland have two parents who have NEVER worked according to recent data.
Think about the implications of that for society and the children in those households and what their future is.

Want services, won't pay for them.

You can't pay taxes when you're scratching your arse all day

You’re a tax payer , if you pay vat .... it’s 2020 you can’t be offending anyone now. The unborn in a mother’s womb are taxpayers for god sake!

Bishop of hope

More incompetence in the hse too today, more money down the swanny.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-blunder-means-it-must-pay-millions-to-protect-files-38846438.html

McMurphy

Bishop of hope wrote: »

On my Google news feed this morning, aontu have started a online petition for Simon Harris removal as health minister for incompetence basically.
All the top lads coming under pressure, a bad start to pre election months of 2020 for FG, compounded by their own stupidity in feeding it.

Independent TD Michael Collins wants to table a motion of no confidence against Harris also, I don't think the govt will be around to see it though.n

The RIC/DMP/AUX/Tan commemoration brain fart will certainly not be doing them any favours in the imminent election.

What in under Jesus was Charlie Flanagan thinking of on that solo run?

Kermit.de.frog

McMurphy wrote: »

The RIC/DMP/AUX/Tan commemoration brain fart will certainly not be doing them any favours in the imminent election.

That will be long forgotten by the weekend, never mind the election.

Won't play any role at all.

Bishop of hope

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

That will be long forgotten by the weekend, never mind the election.

Won't play any role at all.

It will I feel, its one vote less here anyway.

tobsey

Bishop of hope wrote: »

More incompetence in the hse too today, more money down the swanny.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-blunder-means-it-must-pay-millions-to-protect-files-38846438.html

You'd be looking at a cost of €50-100 million to replace all those machines, between purchase and set-up costs. Plus the fact that there are so many disparate offices and centres it could be much higher. A large number of staff, perhaps temporary, would be required to complete the upgrade. A couple of million per year to push out the upgrade isn't the worst investment. They are kicking the can down the road though.

McMurphy

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

That will be long forgotten by the weekend, never mind the election.

Won't play any role at all.

Of course it won't.

What with Charlie insisting it's deferred until later on in the year, it's going to be a thorn in their side, and very much an election talking point.

Maria Bailey and insurance issues will be too.

Delusion.

Kermit.de.frog

People pointing to these minor problems in government.

4.8% unemployment
Live register at 12 year pre crash low
Budget surplus
Large employment growth
Growing population
Reversed mass emigration


Now let us go back to how Fianna Fáil left the country in 2010...unable to borrow a cent from anyone to just keep the country running

Ireland's finance minister to push for EU, IMF bailout

I think distinction needs to be made between nagging complaints and the absolute trauma this country was left in 2010 - a busted country, it's independence about to be taken away for inability to be able to be able to run it's affairs.

A bit of perspective and reflection needed.

christy c

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People pointing to these minor problems in government.

4.8% unemployment
Live register at 12 year pre crash low
Budget surplus
Large employment growth
Growing population
Reversed mass emigration


Now let us go back to how Fianna Fáil left the country in 2010...unable to borrow a cent from anyone to just keep the country running

Ireland's finance minister to push for EU, IMF bailout

I think distinction needs to be made between nagging complaints and the absolute trauma this country was left in 2010 - a busted country, it's independence about to be taken away for inability to be able to be able to run it's affairs.

A bit of perspective and reflection needed.

A lot of truth to that but I'm not sure that FG would be able to coherently bring that in to a general election campaign. We've seen with the UK and the US that soundbites are a very effective tool during an election.

So people like Pearse Doherty will have their "tell that to the homeless" style soundbites at the ready, but it is much more difficult to get across the stupidity of what Pearse was proposing post bailout for example.

McMurphy

christy c wrote: »

A lot of truth to that but I'm not sure that FG would be able to coherently bring that in to a general election campaign. We've seen with the UK and the US that soundbites are a very effective tool during an election.

So people like Pearse Doherty will have their "tell that to the homeless" style soundbites at the ready, but it is much more difficult to get across the stupidity of what Pearse was proposing post bailout for example.

Of course they wouldn't - how could they after going to partner with FF for four years a mere five years after they got in, and telling the country about eating out of bins etc?

FF will be back, and back because of FGs ineptitude and arrogance.