Have the Garda siochana cleaned up their ranks?

steddyeddy

The Morris Tribunal indicated that the guards in Donegal framed people for various crimes and generally did little to eradicate corruption from their ranks. Lately we see that there is evidence of mass deceit in the organisation as a whole regarding penalty points and more significantly we see some serious issues in the Mary Boyle case. I don't care what people think but this is not police force I can be proud of. Sure plenty of police have their issues but some acknowledge that and make moves to clean up their. The London Met for example, they've had massive issues with corruption and brutality in the 70s and 80s but they made an effort to clean it up and it happened.

Before we start I'd like to point out that I have no issue with the police in general. I realise it's a very hard job and not something I would do. I do think Ireland's police force was lacking in professionalism over the years and I'm seeking opinion as to whether that has changed.

Edgware

Its very easy throw in a comment such as the Mary Boyle case but all we have in that is completely unsubstantiated pub talk

steddyeddy

Edgware wrote: »

Its very easy throw in a comment such as the Mary Boyle case but all we have in that is completely unsubstantiated pub talk

From two ex-garda who worked on the case.

Edgware

steddyeddy wrote: »

From two ex-garda who worked on the case.

Still pub talk unless sworn evidence

Well the Mary Boyle case took place in the 70s, so really isn't relevant to the workings of AGS today.

Sycamore Tree

The whole culture of the Gardaí is red rotten. They have done zero to change it.

12 mobile phones used by senior Gardaí went missing when they were requested by the Charleton Tribunal earlier this year; the message to all Gardai was simple - when doing corrupt things, cover your tracks.

James Brown

Edgware wrote: »

Still pub talk unless sworn evidence

You go on and get Bertie Ahern to look after your life savings so.

seamus

It's improved and is improving, but the problem in any organisation like the Gardai is that the same institutional knowledge that's essential to getting the job done, also carries with it backhanders and backdoors and cultures.

Other issues are that the top level have been continually promoted opaquely from within, bringing with them the same culture that existed in the force, and therefore the same desire to protect and perpetuate it.

Morale has also been on the floor; drops in wages, no moral support from the top brass, continually being under attack from media and politicians about doing a poor job. And where you have poor morale, you have little respect for the job, or the uniform or the country, and you get corruption and incompetence.

Compared to the shenanigans of yesteryear, the Gardai are abject professionals, but there's a long way to go. The appointment of the new Commissioner from outside the force and the Policing Authority's objective scrutiny should hopefully help drive the force onto the right path.

oceanman

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

The whole culture of the Gardaí is red rotten. They have done zero to change it.

12 mobile phones used by senior Gardaí went missing when they were requested by the Charleton Tribunal earlier this year; the message to all Gardai was simple - when doing corrupt things, cover your tracks.

they are probably no more corrupt than most police forces in other parts of the world. when you put people in a position of power they tend to abuse that power, its just a human nature thing...

Sycamore Tree

oceanman wrote: »

they are probably no more corrupt than most police forces in other parts of the world. when you put people in a position of power they tend to abuse that power, its just a human nature thing...

Do they also try to utterly destroy and smear the 1 brave man that tried to reveal the level of corruption?
How many other police forces tried to portray a good officer as a paedophile to quiten him?

Silentcorner

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

The whole culture of the Gardaí is red rotten. They have done zero to change it.

12 mobile phones used by senior Gardaí went missing when they were requested by the Charleton Tribunal earlier this year; the message to all Gardai was simple - when doing corrupt things, cover your tracks.

A Tribunal/Enquiry that was investigating the actions of Senior Gardai who it is alleged labelled a whistleblower a "kiddy fiddler".

The message to honest hard working Gardai must be depressing.

For a Republic, we oddly cling on to our subservient attitude to power in a way that makes us ripe for abuse.

steddyeddy

oceanman wrote: »

they are probably no more corrupt than most police forces in other parts of the world. when you put people in a position of power they tend to abuse that power, its just a human nature thing...

Very true but how you deal with corrupt individuals is the measure of an institution IMHO. For example those involved in framing people for murder in Donegal were suspended with full pay.

gifted

They appear to have lost the trust and respect of the ordinary man......I think that hurts the garda more than anything else

oceanman

steddyeddy wrote: »

Very true but how you deal with corrupt individuals is the measure of an institution IMHO. For example those invllved in framing people for murder in Donegal were suspended with full pay.

yes, and that's very wrong and still takes place today.

Taytoland

From the people I have been speaking to at masonry meetings it is improving with the new commissioner. An outside influence will greatly help.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

The whole culture of the Gardaí is red rotten. They have done zero to change it.

12 mobile phones used by senior Gardaí went missing when they were requested by the Charleton Tribunal earlier this year; the message to all Gardai was simple - when doing corrupt things, cover your tracks.

They didn’t go missing, they were replaced when they became old or faulty or whatever and were dumped or thrown out. Why would they have kept them??? Do you keep all old broken faulty or obsolete stuff? No off course you don’t and nor does anyone else.

steddyeddy

Edgware wrote: »

Still pub talk unless sworn evidence

I'm not saying it's evidence of anything other than misconduct and corruption around a missing persons case. You're conflating evidence with proof. Two ex garda saying they were prevented from arresting a chief suspect isn't a case of nothing to see here.

Under His Eye

NO!

The Rape of Lucretia

Taytoland wrote: »

From the people I have been speaking to at masonry meetings it is improving with the new commissioner. An outside influence will greatly help.

Thats good news. Blocklayers usually are the best sources of insider info on the Gardai too.

steddyeddy

bubblypop wrote: »

Well the Mary Boyle case took place in the 70s, so really isn't relevant to the workings of AGS today.

True but the penalty points scandal and the Morris Tribunal findings are.

Sycamore Tree

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

They didn’t go missing, they were replaced when they became old or faulty or whatever and were dumped or thrown out. Why would they have kept them??? Do you keep all old broken faulty or obsolete stuff? No off course you don’t and nor does anyone else.

Nonsense and you bloody well know it.

Twelve of fifteen mobile phones belonging to senior garda officers are missing and cannot be provided to the Charleton Tribunal.

The phones were used by former garda commissioners Martin Callinan and Nóirín O'Sullivan and by former garda press officer Supt David Taylor between 2012 and 2014.

Of six phones used by Ms O'Sullivan during the two year period, one was recovered and handed in to the tribunal. Two Samsung Galaxy phones used outside the period under investigation were also made available.

Two out of six phones used by Mr Callinan were also recovered. None of the three phones used by Supt Taylor had been recovered.

Supt Flynn said as a result of a a fundraising appeal, a programme had been in place which handed old garda phones to the Temple Street children's hospital, and later to the Jack & Jill Foundation, after they were reset to factory settings.

He said this programme seemed to have wound down some time in 2012, but he could not establish exactly when.

Fianna Fáil TD John McGuinness has also testified that when he met Supt Taylor in January 2017, he understood from their conversation that Supt Taylor was told to circulate text messages to the media against Sgt McCabe.

steddyeddy

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Nonsense and you bloody well know it.

I'm amazed that so many Irish people are in denial about this.

AMKC

Nope. They are corrupt from the top down to the core. The whole thing including the judges as well are corrupt. There is some good ones but an awful lot of bad ones. So no they have not cleaned up there ranks.

Need a Southern equivalent of the Patten commission and a corresponding level of reform. Change the f**king name of them as well. What exactly are they 'guarding'? Themselves it seems.......

Steviesol

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

The whole culture of the Gardaí is red rotten. They have done zero to change it.

12 mobile phones used by senior Gardaí went missing when they were requested by the Charleton Tribunal earlier this year; the message to all Gardai was simple - when doing corrupt things, cover your tracks.

I for one am not a fan of the Gardai, and have really slated them in the past. But to say they have done zero to change it is untrue in my experience .

There is a new unit called the Protective services bureau. They are not even housed in the same station as normal rank and file Gardai. I personally have seen these guys in action numerous times and they are incredible, so well trained and vigurous.

It gave me such hope for the future.

Lmklad

AMKC wrote: »

Nope. They are corrupt from the top down to the core. The whole thing including the judges as well are corrupt. There is some good ones but an awful lot of bad ones. So no they have not cleaned up there ranks.

I wish people would stop using the word corrupt to describe Gardai. This is the definition “having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.” There has never been an accusation of corruption.

keepalive213

Personally I have no axe to grind with the gardai, I've had no dealings with them whatsoever.
Growing up I would have had the height of respect for them.
Over the last few years this has changed, scandal after scandal, underlying corruption. You would lose all respect for them.

McMurphy

bubblypop wrote: »

Well the Mary Boyle case took place in the 70s, so really isn't relevant to the workings of AGS today.

True enough, but the Jobstown court case/Whistle-blower controversies are.

Pretty damming when you have a judge telling a jury to disregard members of the force testimonies and concentrate on video evidence, as one clearly contradicts the other (not one garda - many garda)

Leo even made a comment on it.

The Fine Gael leader has heaped pressure on Nn O'Sullivan, saying that garda testimony should not differ from the video evidence presented in cases.

In an interview on RT'Primetime', Mr Varadkar said: "People need to trust what gardaay on the stand and I can understand that perhaps in a scenario whereby lots of things are happening quickly and people are caught up in the heat of the moment, they may have a recollection that isn't exactly as things happened.

"There is something there that needs to be looked at, both by the Garda Commissioner and senior Garda management because we need to be able to trust that when gardatand up in court and they say something happened that that did happen."

topper75

Taytoland wrote: »

From the people I have been speaking to at masonry meetings it is improving with the new commissioner. An outside influence will greatly help.

You just keep cutting those blocks mate and leave the policing to the police.

Sycamore Tree

Lmklad wrote: »

I wish people would stop using the word corrupt to describe Gardai. This is the definition “having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.” There has never been an accusation of corruption.

How do you know this??

For example, when Gardaí were cancelling penalty points for their friends, how do you know there wasn't payback. I doubt they would declare it to the Revenue Commissioners but I can guarantee there were cosy arrangements. 442 gardaí cancelled penalty points for no reward whatsoever? Maybe it was only a free pint but maybe it was a favourable planning decision...we will never know.
Many Gardaí are corrupt.

At the end of repeated investigations and nine reports into the debacle, no gardaí will face discipline.
Even that small number who were most prolific at cancelling points – in 1 case 700 times across 17 counties – will face no consequences. That is the conclusion arrived at by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission

Cause and Effect. No punishments encourage further corruption.

Lmklad

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Lmklad wrote: »

I wish people would stop using the word corrupt to describe Gardai. This is the definition “having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.” There has never been an accusation of corruption.

How do you know this??

For example, when Gardaí were cancelling penalty points for their friends, how do you know there wasn't payback. I doubt they would declare it to the Revenue Commissioners but I can guarantee there were cosy arrangements. 442 gardaí cancelled penalty points for no reward whatsoever? Maybe it was only a free pint but maybe it was a favourable planning decision...we will never know.
Many Gardaí are corrupt.

At the end of repeated investigations and nine reports into the debacle, no gardaí will face discipline.
Even that small number who were most prolific at cancelling points – in 1 case 700 times across 17 counties – will face no consequences. That is the conclusion arrived at by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission

Cause and Effect. No punishments encourage further corruption.

I know because no tribunal has alleged it. No whistle blower has alleged it. No journalist has alleged it.