Non LGBT+ Modding of the LGBT forums

eviltwin

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Yes, but the simple fact, up till very, very recently all the mods have been LGBT with no interference from non-LGBT mods. You're acting like this has always been the case, that non-LGBT mods have been directly modding LGBT people and that is simple not true, at least from the moment I arrived.

I am simply proposing mods be LGBT on an LGBT forum. I don't see why this is even being debated. It is clear, even from the few replies here, that non-LGBT people lack the insight needed, and I will state, again, as one of the only active transpeople on Boards: I am deeply uncomfortable with this latest development.

I may have disagreed with JoeytheParrot on many things, but I did not doubt for one second he had a better understanding of Trans issues than most on Boards - and I seriously question the ability of mods like Big Bag to do the same. I don't care how much of an ally claims to be either.

I think you are being really unfair to BBOC. I've seen her moderation in PI and think she's one of the best mods the site has. I don't see how her not being LGBT will possibly impact in the quality of her moderation.

ohnonotgmail

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Nah, it was buy very definition: ad hominem. And the fact the mods allowed it says everything, really. It was completely off-topic. It was also wrong. I have been supportive to what I consider genuine transpeople's cries for help. Just a recent example: https://www./vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057893811

One pot doesnt balance out all the others. Honestly, i avoid reading threads in the LGBT forum that you post on. They normally end up as a ****show.

JackTaylorFan

Rennaws wrote: »

Well firstly i'm not cis gendered, i'm just gendered so i'd appreciate it if you'd stop misgendering people on here.

And secondly, why do you think people should be educated about a "disorder" that effects .3% of the population. What makes you that special ?

First of: Etymology and terminology. German sexologist Volkmar Sigusch used the neologism cissexual (zissexuell in German) in a peer-reviewed publication. ... Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of", which means the opposite of trans-, meaning "across from" or "on the other side of"


Seocondly: The very fact you refer to transgender people as a "disorder" and the mods here doing absolutely nothing about it, is all the evidence I need that the only people modding the LGBT forum should be LGBT+ people (who are also suppportive of the T part).

I would actually like to see a transperson modding, to be honest.

Notice to Mods: I simply won't engage further with this kind of blatant transphobia. And if you really want to help transpeople you'd stop this

JackTaylorFan

eviltwin wrote: »

I think you are being really unfair to BBOC. I've seen her moderation in PI and think she's one of the best mods the site has. I don't see how her not being LGBT will possibly impact in the quality of her moderation.

I don't care how she behaves in other forums as a mod. Her interaction and complete dismissal of my concerns of her being a non-LGBT mod modding trans issues in an LGBT forum says everything I need to know. She refused to engage with me in PMs and instead made snidey remarks - basically trolling me.
If she continues to mod the LGBT forum in future it undermines everything that forum stands for. She doesn't understand trans issues, and I highly doubt she understands LGB issues either. Not to mention, all the other acronyms that are barely represented in public. And her conflation to modding a "phobias" forum with LGBT issues is nothing but a slap in the face, quite frankly.

And just to add: I recall how a trans issue was dealt with not too long ago in PI/RI fora and it was not at all pretty.

JackTaylorFan

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

One pot doesnt balance out all the others. Honestly, i avoid reading threads in the LGBT forum that you post on. They normally end up as a ****show.

Have you looked at the people who are repeatedly attempting to engage with me on those forums? It's usually the same handful of trolls. But okay, all my fault. Sure. The transwoman getting absolutely harassed endlessly, it's her fault. Glad to have your perspective,

Big Bag of Chips

I'm going to step in now JackTaylorFan. I in fact did engage with you via PM, and have the entire PM discussion ready to forward to an Admin if they request it.

Also I did not conflate modding the phobias forum with Trans issues. My reference was in reply to you telling me I had no place modding the LGBT forum when I wasn't a member of the LGBT community. I simply pointed out I modded the phobias forum whilst not suffering from any phobia myself.

I have never, at any point modded 'trans issues'. I have moderated your posting style which is the problem. You are free to discuss any and all issues you deem relevant in the forum, so long as you stay within the Site Rules and The Forum Charter whist doing it.

You don't. And that's why you were moderated. Whether it was by me, or a moderator who is part of the LGBT community would be irrelevant. The end result would be the same. You have been asked, multiple times to amend your posting style and stick within the rules, and you have made it perfectly clear both in PM to me and publicly on thread that you have no intention of doing so.

The Bishop Basher

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

First of: Etymology and terminology. German sexologist Volkmar Sigusch used the neologism cissexual (zissexuell in German) in a peer-reviewed publication. ... Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of", which means the opposite of trans-, meaning "across from" or "on the other side of"

Thank you for that irrelevant distraction however I still consider myself gendered, not cisgendered. Do you not support the premise that I should be entitled to be called by my gender as I feel is appropriate?

I would afford you that courtesy..

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Seocondly: The very fact you refer to transgender people as a "disorder" and the mods here doing absolutely nothing about it

I used inverted commas because I still don’t know how to refer to transgenderism. I’ve asked a few times now but no one ever answers. I have no problem with it not being a disorder but if it’s not a disorder then what is it ?

JackTaylorFan

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I'm going to step in now JackTaylorFan. I in fact did engage with you via PM, and have the entire PM discussion ready to forward to an Admin if they request it.

By all means do.

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Also I did not conflate modding the phobias forum with Trans issues. My reference was in reply to you telling me I had no place modding the LGBT forum when I wasn't a member of the LGBT community. I simply pointed out I modded the phobias forum whilst not suffering from any phobia myself.

Yes, you did. And you're doing it right now, and you don't even realise it.

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I have never, at any point modded 'trans issues'. I have moderated your posting style which is the problem. You are free to discuss any and all issues you deem relevant in the forum, so long as you stay within the Site Rules and The Forum Charter whist doing it.

You gave me a warning for replying to a comment excusing violence and verbal abuse against LGBT people. Basically tone policing me for using an emoticon

You literally have no idea what you are talking about regarding trans issues (unless, you live the life, you can't possibly), and if you don't think that should be enough to disqualify you as a mod regarding trans issues, then there is seriously something very wrong with your sense of ego and entitlement.

Odelay

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Have you looked at the people who are repeatedly attempting to engage with me on those forums? It's usually the same handful of trolls. But okay, all my fault. Sure. The transwoman getting absolutely harassed endlessly, it's her fault. Glad to have your perspective,

I always thought LGBT people were regular people, the same as everyone else. You seem to be telling me they are different.

I have noticed your posts before, they do stand out, usually the same format. Have you considered starting your own forum? It could follow your rules and you could exclude anyone that wasn't LGBT or didn't agree with your views?

JackTaylorFan

Rennaws wrote: »

Thank you for that irrelevant distraction however I still consider myself gendered, not cisgendered. Do you not support the premise that I should be entitled to be called by my gender as I feel is appropriate?

I would afford you that courtesy..



I used inverted commas because I still don’t know how to refer to transgenderism. I’ve asked a few times now but no one ever answers. I have no problem with it not being a disorder but if it’s not a disorder then what is it ?

Exhibit A:

Rennaws is a perfect example of the dismissive attitude and blatant transphobia that occurs all too frequently on the LGBT forum when it comes to trans issues.

Notice the trolling devise known as sealioning* highlighted. As I said the forum is not about mollifying these users, whose intentions are more than a little questionable.

*A subtle form of trolling involving "bad-faith" questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. If your bait is successful, the other party may engage, painstakingly laying out their logic and evidence in the false hope of helping someone learn. In fact you are attempting to harass or waste the time of the other party, and have no intention of truly entertaining their point of view. Instead, you react to each piece of information by misinterpreting it or requesting further clarification, ad nauseum.

JackTaylorFan

Odelay wrote: »

I always thought LGBT people were regular people, the same as everyone else. You seem to be telling me they are different.

Uh-huh, because one individual says we are all equal. that means society is fixed and LGBTQ+ don't face persecution and need protections from the more malignant in society.

Sure.

pjohnson

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

By all means do.




Yes, you did. And you're doing it right now, and you don't even realise it.




You gave me a warning for replying to a comment excusing violence and verbal abuse against LGBT people. Basically tone policing me for using an emoticon

You literally have no idea what you are talking about regarding trans issues (unless, you live the life, you can't possibly), and if you don't think that should be enough to disqualify you as a mod regarding trans issues, then there is seriously something very wrong with your sense of ego and entitlement.

You seriously need to chill the hell dude. You go on the attack so easily if someone disagrees with you on the tiniest point. You need to accept discussion instead of viewing any slightly altering point as a transphobia based attack. You only seem to fight with everyone here.

Manion

pjohnson wrote: »

You seriously need to chill the hell dude. You go on the attack so easily if someone disagrees with you on the tiniest point. You need to accept discussion instead of viewing any slightly altering point as a transphobia based attack. You only seem to fight with everyone here.

Is there really a need to use gendered language. Your micro aggressive postings are the type of thing referenced by JTF.

To JackTaylorFan, your posts can be a bitter pill to swallow at times. Nevertheless you're probably right that the forum in question is somewhat redundant.

JackTaylorFan

pjohnson wrote: »

You seriously need to chill the hell dude. e.

And, here we go with the misgendering again...

I would also like to point out that the user pjohnson is fully aware of my issues with that word when applied to addressing me, and uses it here to be inflammatory - i.e. dogwhistling. You can view their previous interactions with me here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057896268&page=5

It is blatant transphobia. Period.

JackTaylorFan

I would like to thank every single person who has taken part in this discussion thus far. You are proving my point quite wonderfully.

Merci beaucoup

JackTaylorFan

Manion wrote: »

Is there really a need to use gendered language. Your micro aggressive postings are the type of thing referenced by JTF.

To JackTaylorFan, your posts can be a bitter pill to swallow at times. Nevertheless you're probably right that the forum in question is somewhat redundant.

I truly appreciate that. Thank you.

Pa8301

Is this an "Everyone's out of step except my Johnny" situation?

pjohnson

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

And, here we go with the misgendering again...

I would also like to point out that the user pjohnson is fully aware of my issues with that word when applied to addressing me, and uses it here to be inflammatory - i.e. dogwhistling. You can view their previous interactions with me here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057896268&page=5

It is blatant transphobia. Period.

Ah ffs its still a common feckin phrase. I didn't even think tbh as its a regular part of most peoples vocabulary, no offence intended.

My point was you should stop trying to fight the whole world with everyone as the enemy. Yet it was interpreted as blatant transphobia.

The world isnt as bad as you think and not everyone hates you. Maybe stop trying to think its JTF against the world was all. You'll probably have much happier times and life if you stopped constantly being in war mode.

pjohnson

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I would like to thank every single person who has taken part in this discussion thus far. You are proving my point quite wonderfully.

Merci beaucoup

SEE this is what I mean. Everyone is transphobic now. You are completely against the very thing a "discussion" forum provides.

dudara

Posters - please do not refer to gender dysphoria or transgenderism as a “mental illness” or “disorder”. That is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.

Further information can be found here

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/

www.teni.ie

TheValeyard

Ah this thread has already gone down in flames.

Ten of Swords

Category mods don't typically actively moderate the LGBT forum, at least that has been my observation. BBoC stepped in today as the forum is down a moderator. The fact that a cmod had to step in occurs so rarely is a testament to how well the forum is moderated I think.

As for the wider issue being discussed - non-LGBT mods, to my knowledge the forum has always been moderated by LGBT mods since it's inception and I think that is part of the reason it was successful, at least in the early days. There is no requirement for a mod to be LGBT, such a notion would be at odds with boards ethos anyway, but frankly the regular users of the forum - the only real benchmark by which the success or failure of the forum can be measured - would appreciate a moderator who understands our issues and shares our values.

Mod appointment is not a democratic process, nor should it be. Admins appoint mods I believe, specifically the soc admin (whoever that currently is) and I think that methodology works well. If they are looking to appoint another mod to the LGBT forum there are a number of openly gay moderators in other fora that may like to take it on (I can think of 2 immediately). There are also 2 openly gay former moderators who still use the LGBT forum (again I can think of 2 such former mods). There are still a handful of regular users in the LGBT forum that may be suitable, or the admins may decide that the moderation levels are fine. In summary, there is no shortage of people to choose from.

JTF has raised the point that there have been a number of threads in the LGBT forum in recent weeks that have been made in bad faith, generally to carry on a discussion that has been shut down in other fora for getting out of hand, to soapbox offensive viewpoints or to otherwise annoy users of the LGBT forum.

Anyway that is my feedback for what it's worth, I have nothing further to add to this thread. Thanks

robyntmorton

As a trans person who participates in the LGBT forum (admittedly not as often as I once did) I personally have no problem with the moderation of the forum, from the forum moderators, or the Cmods who get involved from time to time as required.

I do feel though, that the forum is becoming a quite, well, toxic, place. This isn't due to moderation, but to posters involved. Yes, there are those who go in there looking to be inflammatory, and looking to get a reaction, basically as justification for their attitudes, but there is also a poster who gives them exactly what they want, and makes me not want to contribute to the forum, as I would only end up in an argument with this poster, or being seen as a legitimate target by virtue of also being trans.

Yes, JackTaylorFan, I am talking about you in this case, and I have previously voiced my concerns to moderators about this, that I find it easier to not contribute, rather than get involved in something that is about to become, or already is a sh!tstorm.

I (and this is just a personal opinion) believe that getting away from the "everyone is out to get me" mindset, and not looking for a fight in everything that gets posted in the LGBT forum is going to be a great thing. Sometimes it is easier to ignore the post, or outright ignore the poster if you know it is in bad faith, than by giving them everything they want in getting into a pointless argument.

And yes, we could possibly do with more mods on the forum. Whether they are members of the LGBT community or not is really down on my list of priorities though. They need to be able to calmly step in and clear things up when needed first and foremost. Yes, having a certain knowledge of the subject can help, but so can being impartial, a fresh set of eyes without any inside viewpoint one way or another. BBoC being a cmod over the forum stepping in at times would be on this particular side of it, and should be commended as opposed to lambasted for stepping in to cover.

Finally, could things change for the LGBT forum? Almost certainly. Changing everything to suit one poster, who (again my opinion) appears to be alienating others and throwing her toys out of the pram at that very alienation on the other hand is probably not the right thing to do. A change needs to be for the betterment of the many, not the few.

Lemongrease

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Yes, but the simple fact, up till very, very recently all the mods have been LGBT with no interference from non-LGBT mods. You're acting like this has always been the case, that non-LGBT mods have been directly modding LGBT people and that is simple not true, at least from the moment I arrived.

I am simply proposing mods be LGBT on an LGBT forum. I don't see why this is even being debated. It is clear, even from the few replies here, that non-LGBT people lack the insight needed, and I will state, again, as one of the only active transpeople on Boards: I am deeply uncomfortable with this latest development.

I may have disagreed with JoeytheParrot on many things, but I did not doubt for one second he had a better understanding of Trans issues than most on Boards - and I seriously question the ability of mods like Big Bag to do the same. I don't care how much of an ally claims to be either.

Why are you so very very angry? Do you have regrets in life ?

Dial Hard

JackTaylorFan wrote:

I would like to thank every single person who has taken part in this discussion thus far. You are proving my point quite wonderfully.

JTF, I'm going to be completely upfront and say that I'm one of the people who have reported your posts multiple times, across multiple fora here on Boards and the quote above is an example (and a very mild one at that) of why - your posting style is incredibly rude, combative and aggressive. Everywhere. On every topic, not just LGBT/gender ones. I've been on Boards a long time and I honestly have never seen a poster as straight-out-the-gate hostile as you are all the time. And as I've said, it's pretty much every post on every topic on every thread, so I'm not buying the "You'd be angry too if you had to constantly defend yourself" mantra you're inevitably going to respond with.

I honestly don't know how you haven't been banned yet. That's not a dig, or an attempt to backseat mod, it's a genuine observation.

J_E

As a poster on the LGBT forum, I think people feel uncomfortable with such an inflammatory and aggressive tone of voice when they are just trying to have a discussion where they are willing to learn, and people don't always know everything. You don't know everything either. It's important that you own who you are and defend that, but it feels militant when it is used as a way to aggressively drive away other users, which by the way, you have no idea what their situation is with their sexual/gender identity. It is discriminatory in itself to, as you have done on many occasions, told posters you presume to be cis/straight, that they have no right to speak at all. I don't personally stand by that and I find it embarrassing to see people being scared off the LGBT forum or leave with an impression that's how LGBT people approach discussion and debate. Really embarrassing.

robarmstrong

So... only LGBT people can mod LGBT forums?

That's ridiculous logic.

I have massive respect for the LGBT community, their struggles and their journey and I'm delighted at how far the acceptance that they fought so hard for has went, but you are wrong here, very, very wrong. Your posting style is consistently rude, aggressive, hostile and yet when you're questioned on it you play the offended card. So despite me being quite compassionate about the LGBT community (yeah I will throw out the "I have LGBT friends" note here, because I do) and the difference in their quality of life the last few years and acceptance by society has improved dramatically and they are an absolute delight to talk to. I care about their rights, issues and problems as much as anyone else's, so why should I be forbidden to speak on the matter?

I'm sorry you may have suffered slights or injustices on this forum but you're going about it the complete wrong way.

JackTaylorFan

robyntmorton wrote: »

As a trans person who participates in the LGBT forum (admittedly not as often as I once did) I personally have no problem with the moderation of the forum, from the forum moderators, or the Cmods who get involved from time to time as required.

Well, as a transperson on boards, I very much do have an issue with non-LGBT and to a lesser extent non-trans people modding trans issues. They haven't got the first clue what it is like to live the life. And as evidenced here, they turn a blind eye to blatant transphobia, or at best, give a warning, when to be honest it should be grounds for a thread ban, at least. How can you expect any trans person with an ounce of self-respect to continue a conversation with somebody who begins their comment with a thinly veiled insult aimed at your very identity - i.e. use of words like "dude". This happens regularly on the LGBT forum, and the C-Mods are totally oblivious to the harm this can cause to transpeople. And for you to defend their dismissal of another transwoman's honest concerns, knowing the struggles we face, is quite frankly, shocking.

robyntmorton wrote: »

but there is also a poster who gives them exactly what they want, and makes me not want to contribute to the forum, as I would only end up in an argument with this poster, or being seen as a legitimate target by virtue of also being trans.

....

Yes, JackTaylorFan, I am talking about you in this case, and I have previously voiced my concerns to moderators about this, that I find it easier to not contribute, rather than get involved in something that is about to become, or already is a sh!tstorm.

So, having a backbone and standing up for trans issues, rather than keeping your head down is unacceptable? If you are afraid of becoming a target, then by all means, keep your head down, but don't dare criticise another trasnperson for not being afraid to speak up for themselves.

If you are afraid of becoming a target, then by all means, keep your head down, but don't dare criticise another transperson for not being afraid to speak up for themselves.

robyntmorton wrote: »

I (and this is just a personal opinion) believe that getting away from the "everyone is out to get me" mindset, and not looking for a fight in everything that gets posted in the LGBT forum is going to be a great thing. Sometimes it is easier to ignore the post, or outright ignore the poster if you know it is in bad faith, than by giving them everything they want in getting into a pointless argument.

And now you are excusing blatant trolling and transphobia, instead of, I don't know, maybe asking for change? Real change? Like addendums to the charter that prohibit this kind of trolling in the first place? You think maybe that might be a better solution than just telling people to ignore insults and inflammatory statements? Because I certainly do. And I would like to make a few suggestion in this thread as it so happens.

robyntmorton wrote: »

throwing her toys out of the pram

How patronising.. Don't try to infantilize me or my concerns with the woeful way trans issues are being handled on Boards. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

JackTaylorFan

Dial Hard wrote: »

JTF, I'm going to be completely upfront and say that I'm one of the people who have reported your posts multiple times, across multiple fora here on Boards and the quote above is an example (and a very mild one at that) of why - your posting style is incredibly rude, combative and aggressive. Everywhere. On every topic, not just LGBT/gender ones. I've been on Boards a long time and I honestly have never seen a poster as straight-out-the-gate hostile as you are all the time. And as I've said, it's pretty much every post on every topic on every thread, so I'm not buying the "You'd be angry too if you had to constantly defend yourself" mantra you're inevitably going to respond with.

I honestly don't know how you haven't been banned yet. That's not a dig, or an attempt to backseat mod, it's a genuine observation.

So you just want to tone-police me, correct?

Do you have any idea how harmful that is to transpeople?

JackTaylorFan

J_E wrote: »

As a poster on the LGBT forum, I think people feel uncomfortable with such an inflammatory and aggressive tone of voice when they are just trying to have a discussion where they are willing to learn, and people don't always know everything. You don't know everything either. It's important that you own who you are and defend that, but it feels militant when it is used as a way to aggressively drive away other users, which by the way, you have no idea what their situation is with their sexual/gender identity. It is discriminatory in itself to, as you have done on many occasions, told posters you presume to be cis/straight, that they have no right to speak at all. I don't personally stand by that and I find it embarrassing to see people being scared off the LGBT forum or leave with an impression that's how LGBT people approach discussion and debate. Really embarrassing.

What I find embarrassing is the LGBT forum on Boards to be honest. As I said, as it stands it is not fit for purpose.

Have you ever asked yourself why I might be aggressive in my tone? Have you not noticed the little digs at my gender in this thread - the misgendering, the comments about it being a "disorder" - and do you think that these incidents are not common place on the LGBT forum? Do you not think that instead of criticising me for reacting to abuse (and yes, I consider it abuse) that we actually deal with this issue by updating the charter and having mods who understand the concerns of transpeople on a forum designated for transpeople? Or do you want to continue to vilify me and side with the people excusing assaults on LGBT+ people as something that we just need to accept it as a way of life - as you did in my previous encounter with you?