Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

batgoat

batgoat wrote: »

Eh, they actively went on the attack against the Central European University because George Soros is the founder. An Orban associated newspaper named scientists associated with it as "Mercenaries of Soros" . So yep, Orban's regime is very much so going on the offensive against those who aren't favourable to his regime. You're likely to try to justify it just because Soros' name is attached but the reality is, these moves are completely unacceptable and the European Commission have found them to be entirely illegal.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/05/hungarian-scientists-are-edge-country-poised-force-out-top-university

Except, of course, you have nothing to base that statement on (the part in bold). I've clearly written my pov on the matter. I haven't spoken about Orbans rule or his attitude towards, well, anything, except... that Orban said he banned the course because it didn't help Hungarian culture... I guessed that Hungarian culture being rather male dominated wouldn't enjoy switching to a female dominated society. So, no defending of Orban by me...

I've kept my opinion to speaking about Gender Studies courses, and the idea of State influence over University programs (in response to another posters point).

Taytoland

LLMMLL wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

If someone said to you they are a horse or a crocodile would  you just say OK?

Ah the silliest argument ever raises its head.

Nobody claims to be a horse or crocodile. It’s just a made up stick to beat trans people with.

As much science behind it as this. Unless someone can point out the science that someone can claim to be whatever they want. Contrary to biological science.

TomSweeney

LLMMLL wrote: »

Ah portraying yourself as under attack. No wonder you’re so entrenched. You don’t have to back down. You can continue to be ignorant.

She is a woman.

batgoat

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

Your words "You've also stated that you support the Philippino government which operates death squads". I need a citation or else an apology.

You're not getting an apology. I've cited where you clearly seem to view Hungary and Philippino governments in a positive light. You also have previously said that you don't like the idea of democracies. Do you have any level of admiration for the Philipino government or Duerte? If not, I'll happily update to you only supporting some extreme regimes while ignoring what they do.

Sal Butamol

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nope I’m a scientist. Why would I be anti-science?

Im pretty sure you are a comedian actually because you are hilarious

PlaneSpeeking

Taytoland wrote: »

As much science behind it as this. Unless someone can point out the science that someone can claim to be whatever they want. Contrary to biological science.

There can be chromosomal analysis done and shown that someone physically one sex is in fact the other at a genetic level.

However those cases are very few and far between and the current 31, 54, 70 odd whatever genders is just pure nonsense.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/840528/Gender-fluid-family-mum-dad-neutral-Nikki-Louise-Braven-Star-Cloud

"Identifies as both male and female". Unless diagnosed as intersex (or with hermaphroditism as was) - unscientific claptrap.

DickSwiveller Returns

batgoat wrote: »

You're not getting an apology. I've cited where you clearly seem to view Hungary and Philippino governments in a positive light. You also have previously said that you don't like the idea of democracies. Do you have any level of admiration for the Philipino government or Duerte? If not, I'll happily update to you only supporting some extreme regimes while ignoring what they do.

Your words: "You've also stated that you support the Philippino government which operates death squads".

Citation or get lost.

batgoat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Except, of course, you have nothing to base that statement on (the part in bold). I've clearly written my pov on the matter. I haven't spoken about Orbans rule or his attitude towards, well, anything, except... that Orban said he banned the course because it didn't help Hungarian culture... I guessed that Hungarian culture being rather male dominated wouldn't enjoy switching to a female dominated society. So, no defending of Orban by me...

I've kept my opinion to speaking about Gender Studies courses, and the idea of State influence over University programs (in response to another posters point).

You said I was going for an extreme case but the reality is that this is part of a very real attack by Orban on education so you can't view it on its own..

LLMMLL

Taytoland wrote: »

As much science behind it as this. Unless someone can point out the science that someone can claim to be whatever they want. Contrary to biological science.

“The science that someone can claim to be whatever they want”???

What does that even mean?

LLMMLL

Sal Butamol wrote: »

Im pretty sure you are a comedian actually because you are hilarious

Nope still a scientist.

Taytoland

LLMMLL wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

As much science behind it as this. Unless someone can point out the science that someone can claim to be whatever they want. Contrary to biological science.

“The science that someone can claim to be whatever they want”???

What does that even mean?

People claiming that the science exists that people are born in the wrong body. I'd love proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

sexmag

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nope still a scientist.

Ok but someone has quoted a link that shows a very clear white woman who believes she is a black woman.

Can she trans-race or are people only allowed gender transition?

batgoat

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

Your words: "You've also stated that you support the Philippino government which operates death squads".

Citation or get lost.

Do you admire Duerte? It's implied that you do since you specified the Philippines.

DickSwiveller Returns

batgoat wrote: »

Do you admire Duerte? It's implied that you do since you specified the Philippines.

haha the usual response when someone is caught making something up. No apology then? Slán leat.

LLMMLL

Taytoland wrote: »

People claiming that the science exists that people are born in the wrong body. I'd love proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Who said “science exists that people are born in the wrong body”?

It’s not an extraordinary claim.

batgoat

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

haha the usual response when someone is caught making something up. No apology then? Slán leat.

It's pretty clear that you specifically dislike criticisms of Hungary or Philippines... More interesting that you won't answer the question.

PlaneSpeeking

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

haha the usual response when someone is caught making something up. No apology then? Slán leat.

Didn't you just post that the Phillipines can elect who they want ?

How does that mean you support death squads ???

I'm missing something here...!

DickSwiveller Returns

batgoat wrote: »

It's pretty clear that you specifically dislike criticisms of Hungary or Philippines... More interesting that you won't answer the question.

Most interesting tat you won't admit your original comment was a lie.

LLMMLL

sexmag wrote: »

Ok but someone has quoted a link that shows a very clear white woman who believes she is a black woman.

Can she trans-race or are people only allowed gender transition?

We can’t make any generalisations based on Rachel Dolzeal. She is one individual.

If 0.5% of the Irish population believed they were black then that would certainly be worthy of a generalised investigation and analysis, but one individual is at best a case study.

DickSwiveller Returns

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Didn't you just post that the Phillipines can elect who they want ?

How does that mean you support death squads ???

I'm missing something here...!

Yes, thank you. This person doesn't seem to understand that. Although he/she thinks everyone to the right of Gramsci is Hitler so I won't bother pursuing it anymore.

Taytoland

LLMMLL wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

People claiming that the science exists that people are born in the wrong body. I'd love proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Who said “science exists that people are born in the wrong body”?

It’s not an extraordinary claim.

That I am born with a vagina or a penis but can then claim to be whatever I want is not a wild claim? You might as well say Aliens have visited the planet.

PlaneSpeeking

Taytoland wrote: »

That I am born with a vagina or a penis but can then claim to be whatever I want is not a wild claim? You might as well say Aliens have visited the planet.

Ah but is it a man's penis or a woman's penis ?

We've had that crap before.

LLMMLL

Taytoland wrote: »

That I am born with a vagina or a penis but can then claim to be whatever I want is not a wild claim? You might as well say Aliens have visited the planet.

But nobody has said you can claim to be whatever you want to be.

Trans people are not claiming to be “whatever they want or be”.

Trans men are men and trans women are women.

You will never claim to be anything other than Male (I’m assuming you are Male) because you’re not trans (ima assuming).

sexmag

LLMMLL wrote: »

We can’t make any generalisations based on Rachel Dolzeal. She is one individual.

If 0.5% of the Irish population believed they were black then that would certainly be worthy of a generalised investigation and analysis, but one individual is at best a case study.

Its quite possible that people believe they are black or another race but are too afraid to come out due to social stigma, like men dressing as women has been around for years and was seen as a laugh....the idea of a person doing blackface would be crucified

Or its possible that nobody believes they are black and the idea of gender confusion can be attributed to mental illness which does not effect people and their idea of race

cdeb

Taytoland wrote: »

That I am born with a vagina or a penis but can then claim to be whatever I want is not a wild claim? You might as well say Aliens have visited the planet.

They have. I'm living proof. I'm from Venus. Well, I identify as someone from Venus, which is exactly the same thing.

Your planet is nice, but the lack of alien toilets is simply disgusting planetism

LLMMLL

sexmag wrote: »

Its quite possible that people believe they are black or another race but are too afraid to come out due to social stigma, like men dressing as womna has been around for years and was seen as a laugh....the idea of a person doing blackface would be crucified

Or its possible that nobody believes they are black and the idea of gender confusion can be attributed to mental illness which does not effect people and their idea of race

Absolutely. But it’s not worthy of discussion until we’re aware of these people. Until then it’s entirely a straw man argument. Completely made up.

PlaneSpeeking

cdeb wrote: »

They have. I'm living proof. I'm from Venus. Well, I identify as someone from Venus, which is exactly the same thing.

Your planet is nice, but the lack of alien toilets is simply disgusting planetism

Heuston - by the ticket office.

Well they must be for someone!

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

My point is that literally every subject is the same in this regard. Those predatory journals exist in every field. So if you're against including gender studies because some of the peer reviewed stuff is dodgy than you should be against every single academic field. These dodgy journals and articles exist in every field of study.

And I am against the use of peer reviewed material that hasn't been properly verified to be true. I would feel the same about any University course that bases itself around such material.

Academics know this and they don't use that stuff. Most of them. You'll find some useless ones, in every field, who will be lazy and include them but it rarely happens. That gender studies paper you linked to has about as much chance of being used in a citation as the auto complete one.

Ahh, I understand now. By spreading the problem to other disciplines or faculties, you think we mightn't consider just how common it is, in particular, disciplines, like Psychology, sociology, etc.

The point remains though that Gender studies originated out of the US feminist academia which have a strong history of using badly researched assumptions to promote their viewpoints. You can, and will, point to the same behavior happening in other disciplines, but in the area of Gender studies or similar studies, this behavior is common as muck.

See, you're working on the assumption that every gender studies course is the same and it's only created to subjugate men.

Nope. You're working under the assumption that you can determine my mind outside of what I've written.

It's not the case. I mentioned earlier in a post to someone else about the division of labour. I think we can both agree that in most countries in the world there are male and female jobs. In the western world this doesn't exist as much. Women here have a lot more options. But anyone who studies in this area would be studying in "gender studies" they may be anthropologists, psychologists, sociologists, historians or philosophers. But the common thread is that their studies all involve gender, or gender roles, in some way.

When gender studies is dismissed it's dismissing all of that. This is an area that's worthy of studies. It's a huge part of our world.

Gender studies is being dismissed because of the message it has sent out over the last two decades. Mainstream Sociology, or Anthropology aren't being dismissed because there is no agenda being pushed. Gender studies programs have consistently promoted a pro-feminist angle, with little attempt at seeking to encourage equal responsibility to both genders.

And I will continue to dismiss Gender Studies until I start seeing a removal of that bias in both the research being done, the articles being written, and the reports by students I know who have been exposed to such courses or similar courses. I do actually know people (in the UK and elsewhere) who have or are studying Gender studies or similar courses... and have seen the study material they are assigned along with their project grading.

Malayalam

Yeah, I have also looked at Gender Studies core curriculums.

And just to reiterate, I don't support the banning of Gender Studies anywhere. But I do support the funding of sufficient countervailing academia for rigorous intellectual balance.

In Utrecht University one can do a Masters in Gender Studies and become ''a professionally successful agent for change''. Change what, one might ask, given the incredible freedoms our societies have managed to accrue in spite of not being hectored by gender studies agents of change for very long...
well, see, we must really investigate the following...

How do gender, race, class, sexuality, and age contribute to the formation of social identities? What role do ensuing power differences between these factors play in our globalized and mediatized world? What measures have been taken, in the past and the present, in order to prevent discrimination and exclusion? And how do academic, cultural, artistic, journalistic, and policy-making institutions respond to these societal challenges? Emancipation, the recognition of differences, and awareness of intersections of gender with other factors of identity making (class, race, age, sexuality, etc.) are crucial tools in analyzing social and cultural relations in today’s postcolonial and post-secular societies.

or I could go to Prague where my research into the cruel patriarchy will lead me to....

familiarize (myself) with gender analysis in diverse academic fields and practical areas of social life in order to get them ready for professional careers in wide range of professional fields, including state administration, social policy, social and medical care, social and legal work, education and academic work.

Graduates of the M.A. program in Gender Studies will find their careers in state and non-governmental organizations, especially in national and international institutions and organizations concerned with social questions, family matters, domestic and public violence, human rights and equal opportunities, development of civil society, sustainable development, labor law, and others. In their work, individual, teamwork or leading roles, in roles of mediators of conflict resolution, in research, education, planning, applying methods of social change they will be able to inspire advanced gender sensibility and use applied gender analysis with gender differentiated attitudes.

It's also amazing how very many of these Gender Studies programs provide adjunct courses of study in Middle East, African and Asian gender issues, given how very little the activists in these disciplines seem to give an actual damn about women who really are being treated badly in those places.


I find it all silly hogswash. Better by far if people actually studied things that would contribute towards the measurable betterment of humankind and our environment, rather than being divisive and ultimately reducing us all to idiotic identity groupings.

Tell me how

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

The snowflakes must have put you on repeal shield. Both my personal account and my troll account are blocked by her too.

Do you have a personal account on boards as well as this one?

sexmag

LLMMLL wrote: »

Absolutely. But it’s not worthy of discussion until we’re aware of these people. Until then it’s entirely a straw man argument. Completely made up.

great you can agree so ill ask a follow up, in your opinion why do you think that this isnt the case?

Why is the issue of gender transition so widespread yet the idea of racial transition is unheard of? Both are people changing something that they were given/born into by nature but only one seems to be something people want to change (well in public discussion as it is) Edit: or even the idea of changing ones age?

LLMMLL

Malayalam wrote: »

Yeah, I have also looked at Gender Studies core curriculums.

And just to reiterate, I don't support the banning of Gender Studies anywhere. But I do support the funding of sufficient countervailing academia for rigorous intellectual balance.

In Utrecht University one can do a Masters in Gender Studies and become ''a professionally successful agent for change''. Change what, one might ask, given the incredible freedoms our societies have managed to accrue in spite of not being hectored by gender studies agents of change for very long...
well, see, we must really investigate the following...




or I could go to Prague where my research into the cruel patriarchy will lead me to....





It's also amazing how very many of these Gender Studies programs provide adjunct courses of study in Middle East, African and Asian gender issues, given how very little the activists in these disciplines seem to give an actual damn about women who really are being treated badly in those places.


I find it all silly hogswash. Better by far if people actually studied things that would contribute towards the measurable betterment of humankind and our environment, rather than being divisive and ultimately reducing us all to idiotic identity groupings.

Were we supposed to be shocked by the Prague/Utrecht courses you quoted? They were both entirely uncontroversial.

LLMMLL

sexmag wrote: »

great you can agree so ill ask a follow up, in your opinion why do you think that this isnt the case?

Why is the issue of gender transition so widespread yet the idea of racial transition is unheard of? Both are people changing something that they were given/born into by nature but only one seems to be something people want to change (well in public discussion as it is) Edit: or even the idea of changing ones age?

What idea of racial transition? There is basically one extremely famous and controversial case of one woman claiming this.

That’s why it’s unheard of.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Deleted User wrote: »

The State is going to have influence over what courses are taught and the standard those courses aspire to, otherwise, why fund Universities at all if they present courses that provide no benefit to the country?

Trinity offers courses in areas such as ancient history and archaeology, classical civilizations, Jewish and Islamic civilizations, and world religions and theology -- all funded by the taxpayer. Do these courses provide a benefit to the country? One could surely imagine a politician deciding that the country can continue to function just fine without funding graduates in theology, Ancient Greek civilization, and ancient archaeology, and proposing to axe funding for such courses.

Malayalam

LLMMLL wrote: »

Were we supposed to be shocked by the Prague/Utrecht courses you quoted? They were both entirely uncontroversial.

Perhaps for now because most people are entirely indifferent to the world around them and therefore it is not that controversial, but they are also both entirely silly. And outdated. If I was reading that core content in some 1950s magazine I might be somewhat interested, maybe 1890s even better...but right now it just looks like a lot of academic losers missed the bullet train to the present and reality.

sexmag

LLMMLL wrote: »

What idea of racial transition? There is basically one extremely famous and controversial case of one woman claiming this.

That’s why it’s unheard of.

Yes but why arent there more do you think?

Because its so taboo that people cant express it publically or people just dont suffer from it? And if people dont suffer from it then why do people suffer from one extreme bodily change as gender and not things like race and age disphoria etc

DickSwiveller Returns

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you have a personal account on boards as well as this one?

No

Malayalam

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel wrote: »

Trinity offers courses in areas such as ancient history and archaeology, classical civilizations, Jewish and Islamic civilizations, and world religions and theology -- all funded by the taxpayer. Do these courses provide a benefit to the country? One could surely imagine a politician deciding that the country can continue to function just fine without funding graduates in theology, Ancient Greek civilization, and ancient archaeology, and proposing to axe funding for such courses.

History and archaeology, classical civilizations, Jewish and Islamic civilizations, and world religions and theology all contribute to our present empirical knowledge by informing us of our past via actual data. They are not made up post modernist theorising.

LLMMLL

sexmag wrote: »

Yes but why arent there more do you think?

Because its so taboo that people cant express it publically or people just dont suffer from it? And if people dont suffer from it then why do people suffer from one extreme bodily change as gender and not things like race and age disphoria etc

I have no idea because there aren’t enough people to draw a generalisation from. Either of the options you gave are possible.

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel wrote: »

Trinity offers courses in areas such as ancient history and archaeology, classical civilizations, Jewish and Islamic civilizations, and world religions and theology -- all funded by the taxpayer. Do these courses provide a benefit to the country? One could surely imagine a politician deciding that the country can continue to function just fine without funding graduates in theology, Ancient Greek civilization, and ancient archaeology, and proposing to axe funding for such courses.

You're really going to hold up Gender studies as comparable to these courses?

PlaneSpeeking

Deleted User wrote: »

You're really going to hold up Gender studies as comparable to these courses?

Oh it seems so, as insane as an idea as that is!

Sal Butamol

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nope still a scientist.

Are you a "scientist" in the same way that Bruce Jenner is a "woman"

What field?

Sunny Disposition

Would think gender studies has value, but sadly it is v likely to be hijacked by zealots, everyone knows a few who are always in the papers and on the radio.
Sure, things like disparaties between genders should be studied, but if diverse opinions and peopl from various backgrounds are made uncomfortable that’s a major problem. Straight white Irish men are being excluded and this should stop. Our gender studies experts need to remove the barriers and not dismiss people based on identity.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're really going to hold up Gender studies as comparable to these courses?

Well in the TCD syllabus I read today most of the modules in gender studies come fro literary studies or historiography so........yes. There are massive similarities.

LLMMLL

Sal Butamol wrote: »

Are you a "scientist" in the same way that Bruce Jenner is a "woman"

What field?

Physics

LLMMLL

Malayalam wrote: »

History and archaeology, classical civilizations, Jewish and Islamic civilizations, and world religions and theology all contribute to our present empirical knowledge by informing us of our past via actual data. They are not made up post modernist theorising.

That’s not really true. For example, I know a history professor who is doing research on a little studied period in Irish history, which is the kind of research you’re talking about above.

I know another history professor applying a new theory or perspective (about imperialism) to a much studied period of Irish history.

I don’t think you actually know much about universities and research at all.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Malayalam wrote: »

History and archaeology, classical civilizations, Jewish and Islamic civilizations, and world religions and theology all contribute to our present empirical knowledge by informing us of our past via actual data. They are not made up post modernist theorising.

If you want to ban postmodernist theorizing, you're going to have to cast your net far beyond gender studies. Departments of literature, cultural anthropology, sociology, and philosophy (to name but a few) also contain many academics with similar views. How far are you willing to go?

Deleted User wrote: »

You're really going to hold up Gender studies as comparable to these courses?

You asked "why fund Universities at all if they present courses that provide no benefit to the country?" I indicated that the Irish taxpayer is funding many courses that many would consider to provide minimal (if any) benefit to the country -- so where do you draw the line?

PlaneSpeeking

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel wrote: »

If you want to ban postmodernist theorizing, you're going to have to cast your net far beyond gender studies. Departments of literature, cultural anthropology, sociology, and philosophy (to name but a few) also contain many academics with similar views. How far are you willing to go?



You asked "why fund Universities at all if they present courses that provide no benefit to the country?" I indicated that the Irish taxpayer is funding many courses that many would consider to provide minimal (if any) benefit to the country -- so where do you draw the line?

If you can get a job directly in the field of your degree (medicine, law, science, IT, etc etc) then you get a grant.

If you want to fanny about (pun intended) doing gender based nonsense - pay for it yourself.

Malayalam

LLMMLL wrote: »

That’s not really true. For example, I know a history professor who is doing research on a little studied period in Irish history, which is the kind of research you’re talking about above.

I know another history professor applying a new theory or perspective (about imperialism) to a much studied period of Irish history.

I don’t think you actually know much about universities and research at all.

Uh yeah sorry I don't know what you are actually saying there. Research on a little studied period of Irish history sounds like valid empirical research. The new theory application sounds pretty normal too. My two University degrees must be inhibiting me from getting your point. See, in gender studies actual scientific data from hormonal, neurological and biological fields about why the sexes differ is put aside in favour of social constructivist theories that someone (Foucault et al) dragged out of their lovely bottoms.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

If you can get a job directly in the field of your degree (medicine, law, science, IT, etc etc) then you get a grant.

If you want to fanny about (pun intended) doing gender based nonsense - pay for it yourself.

And if you want to fanny about studying ancient archeology or Greek philosophy or modern art?