Those in jail should be forced to go litter picking.

tom1ie

Went for a walk today along the dodder. The levels of plastic bottles, bags aluminum cans etc is astronomical. So it got me to thinking, why can’t we use people locked up in prison to go out and clean up these areas.
Obviously:
Under heavy supervision.
Low level offenders, ie no murderers rapists etc.

It seems they are a resource we pay for, by housing and feeding etc, but we get no return from them.

Fighting Tao

Or jail the people who litter.

tom1ie

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Or jail the people who litter.

Which would completely fill up our jails within a short space of time.
Educating people not to litter and fining people has been tried but it’s obviously not working.
We’ve a resource we are not using that’s costing us money.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

tuxy

tom1ie wrote: »

Under heavy supervision.
Low level offenders, ie no murderers rapists etc.

Have you any idea how much that would cost?
It would be a fraction of the cost to just pay more regular staff to clean the streets. Do you think it would be worth paying significantly more just to get convicts to do it?

freshpopcorn

I can't think of the official tittle but the guy who's in charge of the people doing community service occasional brings a little bus load of lads doing this near me.
Locals generally don't like the guys being in the area tough.

Fighting Tao

tom1ie wrote: »

Which would completely fill up our jails within a short space of time.
Educating people not to litter and fining people has been tried but it’s obviously not working.
We’ve a resource we are not using that’s costing us money.

Serious answers that way ->

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

They had people 'sentenced' to community service picking litter around here. A total waste of time. They hardly picked up a single piece of litter; totally disinterested.

TheRiverman

Litter picking,cutting roadside hedges,grass and weeds,pulling ragworth.Get them out as chain gangs.

Doctors room ghost

Mariana Pitiful Desert wrote: »

They had people 'sentenced' to community service picking litter around here. A total waste of time. They hardly picked up a single piece of litter; totally disinterested.

That's where you need a few county mountys on horseback srameen and one of those big whips. And stay whipping the whole day long

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

That's where you need a few county mountys on horseback srameen and one of those big whips. And stay whipping the whole day long

That works on the guys sent out to dig the drains but just doesn't cut it with the litter pickers.

FFred

1) They will refuse to do it citing some kind of rights infringement
2) Council workers will not be happy
3) Insurance , who pays if (when) someone has an ‘accident’ ?
4) Supervision , do the screws have to do it ?

So..... No.

tom1ie

tuxy wrote: »

Have you any idea how much that would cost?
It would be a fraction of the cost to just pay more regular staff to clean the streets. Do you think it would be worth paying significantly more just to get convicts to do it?

No. Obviously if it’s cheaper to get more regular staff that’s the answer.
But I don’t see how it wouldn’t be cheaper. The people picking up the litter would be no cost. The supervision could be at a ratio of 1 to 5, prison guard to prisoners, but a member of the defense forces could be on site also.
Regarding the defense forces I know they wouldn’t have powers of arrest but these prisoners are already in the jail system. They would be there as a deterrent for escape. Im sure members of the defense forces could be spared a couple at a time to go on these clean ups.

tom1ie

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Serious answers that way ->

What?

Samuel T. Cogley

Let's pay millions more to let them out of prison. Well thought through.

McMurphy

tom1ie wrote: »

No. Obviously if it’s cheaper to get more regular staff that’s the answer.
But I don’t see how it wouldn’t be cheaper. The people picking up the litter would be no cost. The supervision could be at a ratio of 1 to 5, prison guard to prisoners, but a member of the defense forces could be on site also.
Regarding the defense forces I know they wouldn’t have powers of arrest but these prisoners are already in the jail system. They would be there as a deterrent for escape. Im sure members of the defense forces could be spared a couple at a time to go on these clean ups.

I think you're overthinking it.


If you want my opinion their should be schemes like this that are mandatory for long term dole collection folk to sign up to.

Every so often long term unemployed people should be made to partake in community work such as litter picking etc.

No need for the prisoners to be let out where they could get their hands on God knows what.

tom1ie

FFred wrote: »

1) They will refuse to do it citing some kind of rights infringement
2) Council workers will not be happy
3) Insurance , who pays if (when) someone has an ‘accident’ ?
4) Supervision , do the screws have to do it ?

So..... No.

1) if they refuse they can loose their automatic remission on their sentence. If they actively partake, they can gain extra time off their sentence. They can work their way out of their sentence while gaining a sense of accomplishment and contributing to society.
2) I doubt the council clean along the banks of the dodder and other litter hotspots anyway. I’m not talking about getting them to clean up o Connell street or Tallaght village, parks and riverbanks first.
3) this is the tricky one. Not sure how you get around it but something like the prisoner looses all entitlement to bring a claim against the state springs to mind.
4) the screws would love to get out and about. Get some fresh air. Sweeten the deal with something like double time when they’re supervising a cleaning gang.

So.....yes.

tom1ie

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I think you're overthinking it.


If you want my opinion their should be schemes like this that are mandatory for long term dole collection folk to sign up to.

Every so often long term unemployed people should be made to partake in community work such as litter picking etc.

No need for the prisoners to be let out where they could get their hands on God knows what.

Yeah I agree with the unemployed view aswell, but I think the low level dangerous prisoners should be allowed do this. In my previous post I said how it could actually aid them.

tom1ie

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Let's pay millions more to let them out of prison. Well thought through.

Millions? How? Your well thought out statement has really put me in my place.

tom1ie

tom1ie wrote: »

No. Obviously if it’s cheaper to get more regular staff that’s the answer.
But I don’t see how it wouldn’t be cheaper. The people picking up the litter would be no cost. The supervision could be at a ratio of 1 to 5, prison guard to prisoners, but a member of the defense forces could be on site also.
Regarding the defense forces I know they wouldn’t have powers of arrest but these prisoners are already in the jail system. They would be there as a deterrent for escape. Im sure members of the defense forces could be spared a couple at a time to go on these clean ups.

One prison officer to five prisoners??!
Seriously.
You don't know much about these things.........

freshpopcorn

I'd prefer to give the work to someone on social welfare who was trying to get employment and give them a few extra euro's a week!

FFred

tom1ie wrote: »

1) if they refuse they can loose their automatic remission on their sentence. If they actively partake, they can gain extra time off their sentence. They can work their way out of their sentence while gaining a sense of accomplishment and contributing to society.
2) I doubt the council clean along the banks of the dodder and other litter hotspots anyway. I’m not talking about getting them to clean up o Connell street or Tallaght village, parks and riverbanks first.
3) this is the tricky one. Not sure how you get around it but something like the prisoner looses all entitlement to bring a claim against the state springs to mind.
4) the screws would love to get out and about. Get some fresh air. Sweeten the deal with something like double time when they’re supervising a cleaning gang.

So.....yes.

Okay you’re completely right ... except it’s fcuking LOSE not LOOSE.

n!ghtmancometh

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I think you're overthinking it.


If you want my opinion their should be schemes like this that are mandatory for long term dole collection folk to sign up to.

Every so often long term unemployed people should be made to partake in community work such as litter picking etc.

No need for the prisoners to be let out where they could get their hands on God knows what.

They tried that with the Gateway scheme. I was unemployed at the time and was called up for it. Council staff were dismissive, rude and refused to work or supervise the Gateway people. Was called to a halt after about 3 weeks.

Offering opportunities for useful training to help unemployed get confidence and skills to get back to work is a better idea than punitive measures. But there's always pricks like you (funnily enough they tend to have never experienced the soul destroying existence on 188 a week) who want to kick people when they are down would rather the unemployed be humiliated.

Graces7

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'd prefer to give the work to someone on social welfare who was trying to get employment and give them a few extra euro's a week!

Hurray for some common sense !

Most villages/councils already have someone employed to be out first thing picking up; one of my former landlords was one such. He did a grand job..

It is in between towns that is a problem..

NB there is a sign up here on the island, awarding us a LITTER FREE status, and it is well deserved and grand.

corner of hells

tom1ie wrote: »

No. Obviously if it’s cheaper to get more regular staff that’s the answer.
But I don’t see how it wouldn’t be cheaper. The people picking up the litter would be no cost. The supervision could be at a ratio of 1 to 5, prison guard to prisoners, but a member of the defense forces could be on site also.
Regarding the defense forces I know they wouldn’t have powers of arrest but these prisoners are already in the jail system. They would be there as a deterrent for escape. Im sure members of the defense forces could be spared a couple at a time to go on these clean ups.

Just supposin' the lads all decided to leg it at the same time , do the prison officers and soldiers just chase one of the prisoners or all of them ?

Star Bingo

Given an alternative of scoopin up dogs faeces with their bare hands they’d soon see it as glitter picking

TheRiverman

FFred wrote: »

1) They will refuse to do it citing some kind of rights infringement
2) Council workers will not be happy
3) Insurance , who pays if (when) someone has an ‘accident’ ?
4) Supervision , do the screws have to do it ?

So..... No.

Council workers,what are they?.The certainly don't exist in West Offaly where the rural roads are a disgrace,no roadside grass margins or hedges cut this year,road repairs and resurfacing almost non existent.

Pa8301

Mariana Pitiful Desert wrote: »

That works on the guys sent out to dig the drains but just doesn't cut it with the litter pickers.

What we got here is a failure to communicate.

Doctors room ghost

corner of hells wrote: »

Just supposin' the lads all decided to leg it at the same time , do the prison officers and soldiers just chase one of the prisoners or all of them ?

In an ideal world the officers would pull the trigger on a fully automatic weapon and keep her pulled until the running stops.then get chain gang b out to dig a mass grave to bury the runners from chain gang a in.

tom1ie

bubblypop wrote: »

One prison officer to five prisoners??!
Seriously.
You don't know much about these things.........

So you ignored the bit about the defense forces. Good man.

tom1ie

FFred wrote: »

Okay you’re completely right ... except it’s fcuking LOSE not LOOSE.

Lol! My bad. Don’t loose your head over it though

corner of hells

tom1ie wrote: »

So you ignored the bit about the defense forces. Good man.

You do have a point , we do use the defence forces for keeping an eye on the lads in Port Laoise , though it be a hard sell to get a loan of a view soldiers to guard a couple of lads picking up litter.

McMurphy

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

They tried that with the Gateway scheme. I was unemployed at the time and was called up for it. Council staff were dismissive, rude and refused to work or supervise the Gateway people. Was called to a halt after about 3 weeks.

Offering opportunities for useful training to help unemployed get confidence and skills to get back to work is a better idea than punitive measures. But there's always pricks like you (funnily enough they tend to have never experienced the soul destroying existence on 188 a week) who want to kick people when they are down would rather the unemployed be humiliated.

You're a bit too quick to jump the gun there horse, anyone half familiar with my views would know that Im fairly left of centre, and my post above was by no way shape or form penned to have a dig or put anyone down who may be on the dole.

The key part of my post was long term dole collecters. IE those who haven't worked In years, able bodied but choosing welfare as a lifestyle choice.

I would be a strong supporter of the idea that the dole is someway tied to your earnings, and those who have been working for years that have contributed highly to the tax coffers should get some recognition of this should they ever be unlucky enough to have to rely on a fixed income, so at least that fixed income could have some kind of semblance to what that person was earning pre being unemployed.

Reviewed each year they continue to be out of work.

tom1ie

corner of hells wrote: »

You do have a point , we do use the defence forces for keeping an eye on the lads in Port Laoise , though it be a hard sell to get a loan of a view soldiers to guard a couple of lads picking up litter.

Would it though? If ya done a litter pick along the dodder with 3 gangs in one area, that’d require 3 wardens and say 4 or 5 soldiers who could patrol the 3 gangs. 1 soldier permanently in each gang and the remaining two patrolling between the three. The soldiers are getting paid anyway, the wardens get their double time and the prisoners have their incentive to pick up litter, ie reducing their sentence and being out in the open under supervision.
Anyway as I said these prisoners would be low level dangerous so the level of a breakaway would be fairly low.

tom1ie

bubblypop wrote: »

One prison officer to five prisoners??!
Seriously.
You don't know much about these things.........

Ok so what do you think the ratio should be clever clogs? 1 warden to 2 prisoners? Plus the soldier(s)? It’s not Charles Bronson we’d be letting out.

corner of hells

tom1ie wrote: »

Would it though? If ya done a litter pick along the dodder with 3 gangs in one area, that’d require 3 wardens and say 4 or 5 soldiers who could patrol the 3 gangs. 1 soldier permanently in each gang and the remaining two patrolling between the three. The soldiers are getting paid anyway, the wardens get their double time and the prisoners have their incentive to pick up litter, ie reducing their sentence and being out in the open under supervision.
Anyway as I said these prisoners would be low level dangerous so the level of a breakaway would be fairly low.

A soldier might be along shortly to confirm the details , but I think if you have armed soldiers in public , you need radio communication to a barracks and secure transit. I think you might need a Garda somewhere close too.

Can you see where we are going with this ? Soldiers go to the prison , support the prison officers during the trip to the litter pick up , soldier guards the radio and transport , unless we get a Leap card and send them on the Luas , it's going to be pretty expensive.

How bout we just use a soldier sniper to kill the litterers ?

tom1ie

corner of hells wrote: »

A soldier might be along shortly to confirm the details , but I think if you have armed soldiers in public , you need radio communication to a barracks and secure transit. I think you might need a Garda somewhere close too.

Can you see where we are going with this ? Soldiers go to the prison , support the prison officers during the trip to the litter pick up , soldier guards the radio and transport , unless we get a Leap card and send them on the Luas , it's going to be pretty expensive.

How bout we just use a soldier sniper to kill the litterers ?[/QUOTE
But how is this going to cost extra? The soldier is getting paid a days wages. The prison officer is getting a days wages (albeit I’ve suggested double time when they’re on a litter pick). Soldier guarding the radio and transport isn’t getting paid any extra? 5 soldiers covers 3 gangs. Those 5 soldiers are going to pick up a days wages anyway.

tom1ie

tom1ie wrote: »

So you ignored the bit about the defense forces. Good man.

Woman.
& I don't think for one second think our defence forces could be used as prison officers watching people pick up litter.
What do you think their job is?

tuxy

bubblypop wrote: »

Woman.
& I don't think for one second think our defence forces could be used as prison officers watching people pick up litter.
What do you think their job is?

The defense forces already do security in prisons on a regular basis. OPs idea is still stupid though.

tom1ie

tom1ie wrote: »

Ok so what do you think the ratio should be clever clogs? 1 warden to 2 prisoners? Plus the soldier(s)? It’s not Charles Bronson we’d be letting out.

What do you think the ratio is now?
When prison officers escort prisoners to hospital or court for example?
As I said, soldiers are not prison officers, except in portlaosise where they handle the security.
It's not their job, they wouldn't do it & prison officers are not going to allow soldiers to take over their jobs.
Would you pay the soldiers more for example, if they did this duty?
The cost alone of bringing supervised prisoners out would be huge.
I get the idea though, sounds great, but in reality would never work.

tuxy

tuxy wrote: »

The defense forces already do security in prisons on a regular basis. OPs idea is still stupid though.

One prison. A legacy issue

tom1ie

bubblypop wrote: »

Woman.
& I don't think for one second think our defence forces could be used as prison officers watching people pick up litter.
What do you think their job is?

They would be there as a deterrent to stop the prisoner running away,and back up to the prison guard, which I have already stated. The prison guard would have responsibility.
Why can’t they be used as such.

tom1ie

tuxy wrote: »

The defense forces already do security in prisons on a regular basis. OPs idea is still stupid though.

Why is it stupid?

corner of hells

tom1ie wrote: »

Why is it stupid?

Can you really see an armed soldier chasing a prisoner along the Dodder ?

tom1ie

bubblypop wrote: »

What do you think the ratio is now?
When prison officers escort prisoners to hospital or court for example?
As I said, soldiers are not prison officers, except in portlaosise where they handle the security.
It's not their job, they wouldn't do it & prison officers are not going to allow soldiers to take over their jobs.
Would you pay the soldiers more for example, if they did this duty?
The cost alone of bringing supervised prisoners out would be huge.
I get the idea though, sounds great, but in reality would never work.

So they are doing it already in portlaoise so there’s a precedent.
How do you know they wouldn’t do it? If army top brass decide they should do it then they’ll do it.
Why would you pay the soldiers more? They’re getting paid for the day anyway. It’s just another mission.
Explain how the cost would be huge?
Soldiers required, ok. Soldiers get brought in and get paid for the day that they were going to get paid for anyway.
Prison officer required, ok. Offer double time when on a litter pick crew and prison officer will jump at that.
Prisoner not motivated, ok. Reduce prison sentence when prisoner actively partakes in the scheme.
Prisoner is an idiot and tries to run away,ok. Automatic loss of remission and back before a judge for consecutive sentencing.

tom1ie

corner of hells wrote: »

Can you really see an armed soldier chasing a prisoner along the Dodder ?

No, the prisoner won’t run as he would lose his automatic remission and be back before a judge for further sentencing. The soldier is a further deterrent.

What's the difference in salary for a soldier & a prison officer?
Do you think they should do the same job for different money?
I can bet they don't.

corner of hells

tom1ie wrote: »

No, the prisoner won’t run as he would lose his automatic remission and be back before a judge for further sentencing. The soldier is a further deterrent.

Ya don't know many prisoners ....

doolox

A prison had high walls.

A prison has several locked doors between the inside and the outside.

A prison has nearly one prison officer to every prisoner when they are in the common areas during rest or recreation.

At all other times when staff are doing other duties the prisoners are locked in individual or two or three to a cell.

Having prisoners outside in a public space would need huge levels of security.

It would look bad to the general public and would debase the good name of the State. We are bad enough dealing with the aftermath of a riot when the guards get slated for any heavy handed treatment of rioters.

The general public could not stomach the sight on a daily basis of people being restrained or beaten while trying to escape especially if the beating was being done by men employed by the State.

I could not imagine any Minister having to defend such actions or defending the escape of prisoners on the loose after getting away from their guards while on such duty. The costs of such an exercise would heavily outweigh the slight benefits, if any.

For any Minister of Justice it would be a short cut to resignation and eternal damnation in the back benches. I could not imagine such a minister getting re-elected.

Chancer3001

5 other jobs

Painting houses.
Painting shops
Cutting grass
Powerhosing streets
Weeding

I couk d think of another 50

freshpopcorn

Chancer3001 wrote: »

5 other jobs

Painting houses.
Painting shops
Cutting grass
Powerhosing streets
Weeding

I couk d think of another 50

I know a lot of people who do these jobs. Some through scheme and some professionals.
I don't think they'd want a few lads from jail taking their work.