All Ireland football final 2nd September 2018 - MOD NOTE POST #1 #1187 UPDATED

The_Kew_Tour

I'm trying remember a final that seems so 1 sided before kick off.

Kerry v Cork 07
Kerry v Mayo 06 come to mind

But even those games were expected be close before Throw In.

Dublin v Donegal I say from 1992 I say. But look how that turned out

C__MC

Posted this on another thread....

A farce that Tyrone are not speaking to RTE

With Dublin’s rehearsed cliches,
Build up will be fairly subdued

Mickey should have Buried the hatchet IMO with them.

Even the great Alex Ferguson sorted out his mess with the BBC once upon a time

FrancieBrady

C__MC wrote: »

Dublin haven’t played well in a final since 2015

But bar colm Cavanagh this is a new experience for Tyrone

Will the four in a row play on Dublin minds?

Hmmmmm, will Tyrone have a purple patch and hit Dublin for a few scores without reply- rarely seems to happen nowadays apart from mayo against Dublin

Dublin are just to good.

Please folks let’s not destroy this thread by spouting stuff like Dublin to hammer Tyrone and Gaelic football is dead etc

It is a final - takes on a life of its own but Dublin should win 5-6 points

If they can consistently make Cluxton go long then Cavanagh on his day can compete.
That will make it very interesting IF they can do it consistently.
As you say, it is a final, which Dublin don't seem to handle/manage well. Tyrone unsettled them for a while in the Super 8's, if any manager can build on that it is Harte. (much and all as I dislike him today and most days! )

castletownman

I dunno. Form, experience and whatever other variables point to a Dublin win (probably by more than two scores as well), but I just have something in the back of my mind that Harte will have a trick up his sleeve. Tyrone won't be easily beaten whatsoever.

Everyone listing off Gavin's roll of honour neglects to mention that Harte is a three-time AI winning manager himself, and is unbeaten in AI finals. Yes it was a decade ago (way beyond the memory of a lot of the current Hill Army ), but it came in an era when he was competing against an equally-great Kerry side. Dublin haven't had the same level of competition in this era (in terms of competing against all-time great teams). People will point to that Tyrone team being full of generational talent, and underage AI winners- to me that sounds just like the current Dublin set-up.

Harte has shown himself to be a shrewd operator on the big stage before. The curtailing of the Twin Towers in 2008. His use of Canavan in 2005. You just know he'll have a plan to limit the influence of Kilkenny (which Mayo achieved in last year's final), Fenton and McCaffrey. Dublin in all likelihood will still get the job done. But I don't get these obituaries being written about Tyrone's chances. They have have all the physical tools to compete.

Put it this way, I would fancy Tyrone to hold on to a one-point lead entering injury-time more than Mayo

bobbysands81

threeball wrote: »

I would imagine that figure would be based on past viewing figures which nearly always favours the football to the tune of 250k plus but I don't see that happening this year. The hurling is set up to be a dinger.

I've never seen people before say they wouldn't be watching the football final but there's alot this year. Normally I'd crawl over hot coals to watch it but this year I wouldn't be bothered if I didn't see it. It holds about the same appeal as the charity shield.

I think some recent hurling finals have had a bigger TV audience than the football finals.

Edit: just checked figures back to 2013 and you’re correct.

shockframe

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I'm trying remember a final that seems so 1 sided before kick off.

Kerry v Cork 07
Kerry v Mayo 06 come to mind

But even those games were expected be close before Throw In.

Dublin v Donegal I say from 1992 I say. But look how that turned out

Cork and Mayo carry a lot more baggage in finals than Tyrone would though.

I'd expect Dublin to win it out but Tyrone might do better than people expect. They will be out to avoid a disaster like last season and show they are better than that.

Lot of that Tyrone team have played all ireland minor + under 21 finals with a few from club to boot so they won't be fazed by it.

maccored

i thought tyrone almost had dublin in the last 15 mins of the match in omagh. I couldnt see the scoreboard from where I was and i thought they'd fecken drawn even when instead dublin were still 1 point ahead - but tyrone had came back from 6 down to 1 point down, before the dubs got a couple more in before the whistle. If tyrone show up and decide to apply that pressure from the start, I think they'll take Dublin. It certainly isnt as open and shut as many seem to think

BarryD2

naughtb4 wrote: »

KK ran away with loads of those finals and semi finals. Dublin are the ones who havent ran away with a final

Well it's about time they did then so. And no reason why they can't. Dare say they'll try to put the boot in early against Tyrone, get a good early lead and when Tyrone have to attack, stick them with a few goals. How can Tyrone counter that early on - pull/ drag, schmozzles and fights etc. And if they do that, will the ref have the bottle to give out black & red cards early on and be accused of ruining a game etc.?

STB.

castletownman wrote: »

Everyone listing off Gavin's roll of honour neglects to mention that Harte is a three-time AI winning manager himself, and is unbeaten in AI finals. Yes it was a decade ago (way beyond the memory of a lot of the current Hill Army ), but it came in an era when he was competing against an equally-great Kerry side. Dublin haven't had the same level of competition in this era (in terms of competing against all-time great teams). People will point to that Tyrone team being full of generational talent, and underage AI winners- to me that sounds just like the current Dublin set-up.

Harte may very well be a 3 time All Ireland Winning Manager, but he hasn't done it in the last three years, on the bounce or otherwise.

Infact Harte has failed to get his team to an All Ireland Final 9 times out of the last 10 years. He has only won what is it 2 provincials in that time too.

When rushing to have a go, at least have some perspective to bolster your argument especially when attempting to make comparisons.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

I just can not get excited about this final for some reason.

FrancieBrady

STB. wrote: »

Harte may very well be a 3 time All Ireland Winning Manager, but he hasn't done it in the last three years, on the bounce or otherwise.

Infact Harte has failed to get his team to an All Ireland Final 9 times out of the last 10 years. He has only won what is it 2 provincials in that time too.

When rushing to have a go, at least have some perspective to bolster your argument especially when attempting to make comparisons.

Quite easy to see why that is if you wanted to.

Tyrone compete in a far more competitive province than Dublin do with more banana skin matches on their route to a final than Dublin have faced over the years.

Just An Opinion

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If they can consistently make Cluxton go long then Cavanagh on his day can compete.
That will make it very interesting IF they can do it consistently.
As you say, it is a final, which Dublin don't seem to handle/manage well. Tyrone unsettled them for a while in the Super 8's, if any manager can build on that it is Harte. (much and all as I dislike him today and most days! )

“it is a final, which Dublin don't seem to handle/manage well”

Yea I suppose winning 10 out of 12 national finals so far this decade really backs up your nonsense

FrancieBrady

Just An Opinion wrote: »

“it is a final, which Dublin don't seem to handle/manage well”

Yea I suppose winning 10 out of 12 national finals so far this decade really backs up your nonsense

It would be a bit silly to try and deny the reality that Dublin won them so what might Francie have mean't by that comment? hmmm?

Do you need a diagram? Do I really need to make the simple point again? :rolleyes:

You are getting tiresome now.

STB.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Quite easy to see why that is if you wanted to.

Tyrone compete in a far more competitive province than Dublin do with more banana skin matches on their route to a final than Dublin have faced over the years.

Quite easy for you to perceive games of the back door variety to be banana skins because they can't get out of their own province as a way to explain their lack of appearance at finals.

Any chance that they weren't good enough to get there because they were not good enough ? Where have these other Ulster teams been come final day ?

9 times out of the last 10 Tyrone have failed to get to an AI final under Harte

BonnieSituation

mickeyk wrote: »

Gavin is a good if not a great manager!!

He has lost one championship game in six years. He is the best there has ever been, although he undoubtedly has had more help than most that have come before him. It will probably take time for his achievements to be truly recognised but I don’t think any other manager in the game would have achieved what he has in the past six years. It pains me to say that as a son of the kingdom.

You always know there's something brewing Mickey when ye all get so effusive.

Just An Opinion

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It would be a bit silly to try and deny the reality that Dublin won them so what might Francie have mean't by that comment? hmmm?

Do you need a diagram? Do I really need to make the simple point again? :rolleyes:

You are getting tiresome now.

Haha ok Francie take a nap :P

FrancieBrady

STB. wrote: »

Quite easy for you to perceive games of the back door variety to be banana skins because they can't get out of their own province as a way to explain their lack of appearance at finals.

Any chance that they weren't good enough to get there because they were not good enough ? Where have these other Ulster teams been come final day ?

9 times out of the last 10 Tyrone have failed to get to an AI final under Harte

Yes they did because there is some competitiveness left in Ulster. Monaghan put Tyrone out this year, then went out themselves and both still ended up in a semi.

We don't know yet if Tyrone are 'good enough' this year.

C__MC

A big boost for Tyrone this year has been the retirement of Sean Cavanagh and injury to Cathal mc Carron

Both were libalities for Tyrone last year- Cavanagh was done and mc carron is a poor player

seamus

Teams tend to rise/fall to the quality of their opposition, especially at the latter stages of a knockout competition.

It would be true to say that some of the Dublin finals were a bit flat; 2015 being a very notable example, but one could equally say that it was an unremarkable game because Kerry weren't at the races.

Likewise in 2016, some of Dublin's game in that first match was shocking. But so was Mayo's. Against such a mess, Mayo should have mopped the floor, but they didn't.

2017 was an exciting game, both teams gave it a great run. The fact that it was close doesn't mean Dublin didn't handle it well.

Tyrone are a bit of a wildcard. They're inconsistent. Dublin crushed them in the semi's last year, then in the quarters they gave Dublin the only real test of this year, and then they squeaked past Monaghan into the final.

So it's really hard to say how it'll go, because you can't really rely on Tyrone's past or even recent form. It's as likely that Tyrone don't turn up as it is that it'll be a last-minute gasp winner.

If you look at the quarter finals as a whole, though Dublin seemed to go through easier, Tyrone had a better scoring difference over the other two games.

I think this tallies with the numerous chances Galway had on Saturday - there seems to be some kind of chink in Dublin's defence, whether it's a specific strategy or a weak link. If Tyrone manage to exploit this and maybe get a few decent scores in after half-time, Dublin could be properly rattled.

STB.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes they did because there is some competitiveness left in Ulster. Monaghan put Tyrone out this year, then went out themselves and both still ended up in a semi.

We don't know yet if Tyrone are 'good enough' this year.

You mean there's no consistency.

Semi finals ???? You are not good enough to win a final if you can't win a semi!

Where are these "competitive" Ulster teams come AI final day ?

Listen there was a time when the dubs could beat themselves in a game. This tranche of players don't have that mindset. Its what sets them apart from every other county. They have beaten Tyrone twice in Omagh this year (I remember your arguments back then too, they came to nothing).

FrancieBrady

STB. wrote: »

You mean there's no consistency.

Semi finals ???? You are not good enough to win a final if you can't win a semi!

Where are these "competitive" Ulster teams come AI final day ?

Listen there was a time when the dubs could beat themselves in a game. This tranche of players don't have that mindset. Its what sets them apart from every other county. They have beaten Tyrone twice in Omagh this year (I remember your arguments back then too, they came to nothing).

Dublin 1–12 Kerry 1–11
Dublin 2–12 Mayo 1–14
Dublin 0–12 Kerry 0–9
Dublin 1–15 Mayo 1–14
Dublin 1–17 Mayo 1–16

Dublin do not do as well in finals - the stats above show it clearly.
Championship and League results went out the window in those finals above too.

If there is a manager in Ireland who can exploit that, it is Mickey Harte. Maybe he won't, nobody knows yet. But, for me, I will find it fascinating enough to watch how he sends out his team.

yobr

seamus wrote: »

So it's really hard to say how it'll go, because you can't really rely on Tyrone's past or even recent form. It's as likely that Tyrone don't turn up as it is that it'll be a last-minute gasp winner..

Fair point, on the basis of the semi final performances though Dublin look in better shape. Also, their bench would have had the advantage of more game time, esp in view of the Roscommon match.

seamus wrote: »

If you look at the quarter finals as a whole, though Dublin seemed to go through easier, Tyrone had a better scoring difference over the other two games.

Yes and no. Both Tyrone and Dublin finished the Super 8's on the exact same scoring differential +22 points. You are correct when you leave out the results of the Dublin - Tyrone match but then again Dublin rested half the team for the Roscommon match.

seamus wrote: »

I think this tallies with the numerous chances Galway had on Saturday - there seems to be some kind of chink in Dublin's defence, whether it's a specific strategy or a weak link. If Tyrone manage to exploit this and maybe get a few decent scores in after half-time, Dublin could be properly rattled.

I've been reading this Dublin defence weak link for a few years now but I think they will be very alive to the threat from Tyrone's runners in this match. Also, don't rule out Dublin possibly playing a wild card like throwing Eoghan O'Gara up front just to occupy Tyrone defenders. Didn't work great last year against mayo but the early injury to Jack McC didn't help the cause.

yobr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Dublin 1–12 Kerry 1–11
Dublin 2–12 Mayo 1–14
Dublin 0–12 Kerry 0–9
Dublin 1–15 Mayo 1–14
Dublin 1–17 Mayo 1–16

Dublin do not do as well in finals - the stats above show it clearly.
Championship and League results went out the window in those finals above too.

If there is a manager in Ireland who can exploit that, it is Mickey Harte. Maybe he won't, nobody knows yet. But, for me, I will find it fascinating enough to watch how he sends out his team.

You are correct, the finals are much tighter affairs but Dublin's 6/6 record must say something about a team that knows how to win them? Ultimately, while we might all want a match like the 2013 semi final with Kerry, it's about winning.

FrancieBrady

yobr wrote: »

You are correct, the finals are much tighter affairs but Dublin's 6/6 record must say something about a team that knows how to win them? Ultimately, while we might all want a match like the 2013 semi final with Kerry, it's about winning.

Yep, it does say something.
As does Harte's ability to win the finals he was involved in.
Really is a test of two managers. Fascinating in it's own way.

Stoner

C__MC wrote:

A big boost for Tyrone this year has been the retirement of Sean Cavanagh and injury to Cathal mc Carron

I would have thought Sean was a loss to them but it certainly hasn't slowed them down, often these big players find it difficult to fit into a system

I think it will be a high tempo game, cool heads will be needed.

The ref will be key how he handles the early exchanges

Looking at Sludden after his goal yesterday he was very serious and focused,

Following on from last year I think Tyrone have done very well, the other lads are pulling together, possibly benefiting from not having an O'Neill or Sean Cavanagh type waiting to come off the bench.

tayto lover

The things that point to another Dublin All Ireland --

1. Better squad.
2. More experience of A I Final day.
3. The Croke Park factor.

The_Kew_Tour

We all thought Harte had trick up his sleeve for Dublin last year's Semi too.

Just can't see Tyrone doing enough.

But beauty of sport is that sometimes something happens that not even the hard thinkers get right or see coming.

But it's Dublin by 6-10 points for me

Stoner

The_Kew_Tour wrote:

We all thought Harte had trick up his sleeve for Dublin last year's Semi too.

That's true. It was different in Omagh though. I think they'll cause Dublin defenders trouble.

BPKS

I can see Dublin up by 4 or 5 points with 15 minutes to go, Tyrone then decide to go for it. The Dublin subs pick them off at will at the other end and we end up with a double digit victory for Dublin.

Edgware

tayto lover wrote: »

The things that point to another Dublin All Ireland --

1. Better squad.
2. More experience of A I Final day.
3. The Croke Park factor.

I agree. If Dublin were coming in without having won the last three it would be completely different scenario. They have All Ireland experience including games that have gone to the wire and to replays. Tyrone have no All Ireland winner on the team and hard to see anyone the equal of Canavan O Neill Mulligan or Dooher.
Tyrone will bring there own style but at this point Dublin has experience of plenty of that.

vetinari

Only chance for Tyrone is if Dublin have a really underwhelming today.
It's a testament to the gap between Dublin and everyone else that they still can win finals on their off days.
Dublin's ceiling performance wise is far higher than Tyrone's.

corny

Dublin are winning games on the drawing board. They're just too efficient for the likes of Tyrone.

Tyrone had loads of lads swinging their boot at low percentage shots yesterday. You just don't see Dublin doing that anymore. They make sure they contest all the entry points into game to win possession and when they have the ball they'll look after it until they can generate a good look at the target. Its almost inevitable they'll score more than opposition the way the games work out.

Tyrone will have to drastically change tactics to win. If they rely on the good defence/fast counter attack game they'll lose, and probably lose decisively. Funnily enough if they copied Dublins game i think they could do well. If you're patient against Dublins defence they might give you chances.

As it is Dublin are preying on the naivety of the teams they're facing. How times have changed!

C__MC

I think you’ll see a few change of tactics from Tyrone
Surely they’ll try and iscolate mc Mahon- he has been poor so far this year

They’ll have to push on the kick outs- something that worked in Omagh to an extent
Also, Tyrone’s tackling is much better then last year (Dublin were turned over a lot in Omagh)

Man mark Kilkenny everywhere
They sniffed out mc anespie yday but caffrey is a different kettle of fish

cj maxx

I think Dublin will win , but against Galway in the 1st half there looked to be chinks in their defence, whether Tyrone can exploit those however i have my doubts . It will take something like a latish goal to beat Dublin

castletownman

A thought struck me: If Tyrone win, will Mickey Harte become the first manager to have won four AI titles by beating the reigning AI champions, and four different AI winning managers as well (Kernan, O'Connor, O'Shea, Galvin)?

Can't think of anyone that would have a similar record.

And earlier I posted my argument why Tyrone could be close (and even qualified it by saying Dublin will still win), and backed it up with facts, and still someone jumped down my throat. It seems you cannot mention Dublin in any sort of negative breath on here without being accused of heresy.

Gael85

castletownman wrote: »

A thought struck me: If Tyrone win, will Mickey Harte become the first manager to have won four AI titles by beating the reigning AI champions, and four different AI winning managers as well (Kernan, O'Connor, O'Shea, Galvin)?

Can't think of anyone that would have a similar record.

And earlier I posted my argument why Tyrone could be close (and even qualified it by saying Dublin will still win), and backed it up with facts, and still someone jumped down my throat. It seems you cannot mention Dublin in any sort of negative breath on here without being accused of heresy.

James Horan has done 3 times.(Counihan,Gilroy,McGuinness).Mayo also knocked Tyrone in 04 under John Maughan. Alan Dillon played in 4 games.

Stoner

Gael85 wrote:

James Horan has done 3 times.(Counihan,Gilroy,McGuinness).Mayo also knocked Tyrone in 04 under John Maughan. Alan Dillon played in 4 games.

He didn't win any AIs though Gael

You got a stat wrong. First time for everything

Gael85

Stoner wrote: »

He didn't win any AIs though Gael

You got a stat wrong. First time for everything

:):)

STB.

castletownman wrote: »

A thought struck me: If Tyrone win, will Mickey Harte become the first manager to have won four AI titles by beating the reigning AI champions, and four different AI winning managers as well (Kernan, O'Connor, O'Shea, Galvin)?

Can't think of anyone that would have a similar record.

Is that some obscure stat meant to be relevant in some way ? Do you not see the inadequacy of what that stat says ?

Mickey Harte has been managing the Tyrone for 20 years. Yes he has managed to win 3 All Ireland's in that time (which is good) the last of them 10 years ago. In the intervening years ie the last 10, Tyrone have failed to even make an AI final even once outside this year all under his management.

Jim Gavin was appointed the Dubs manager in October 2012. His success record as a manager in such short period of time is unprecedented.

So just incase "one of the current hill 16 army" hasn't spelt it out for you there is no comparison with actual performances and your off the wall irrelevant stats.

If you want to do a comparitive head to head do it on their performances. The starter question for you is when did Tyrone last beat Dublin beit a league or championship game. ? ?

Let's hope we have a closer game than the last championship meeting in Croke Park between the two.

C__MC

One game that always for me that always led this Dublin dominance was the 2010 QF v Tyrone . Dublin became men that day and that win set them up. It was the first time in a long time they slayed a big gun

yobr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yep, it does say something.
As does Harte's ability to win the finals he was involved in.
Really is a test of two managers. Fascinating in it's own way.

Since Gavin took over for the 2013 season, they have played 7 times (6 league and 1 championship match) 4 Dublin wins, 2 draws, both in the league. Last Tyrone win was 2013 in the league and Dublin beat them in the subsequent final. Will be interesting.

yobr

STB. wrote: »

If you want to do a comparitive head to head do it on their performances. The starter question for you is when did Tyrone last beat Dublin beit a league or championship game. ? ?

I was interested in this too, the answer is the first time they met when Jim Gavin was Dublin manager, back in the 2013 league campaign. Dublin met them in the subsequent final which they won.
Both of those matches were one point victories.

FrancieBrady

yobr wrote: »

Since Gavin took over for the 2013 season, they have played 7 times (6 league and 1 championship match) 4 Dublin wins, 2 draws, both in the league. Last Tyrone win was 2013 in the league and Dublin beat them in the subsequent final. Will be interesting.

It is quite clear in the year stats I posted showing Dublin's winning margins that 'finals' are different beasts altogether.

All other games and histories seem to go out the window.

Powerhouse

FrancieBrady wrote: »

20 minutes to go Tyrone will be within 3 - and then we will see what Gavin and Harte are made of.[/QUOTE

If that's the position Tyrone are in with 20 minutes to go they'll be well beaten by the end.

Powerhouse

robbiezero wrote: »

Dublin to win by 6 or more I think. just superior in most areas of the pitch vs a fairly average Tyrone team.
I give Tyrone no chance. if there is to be a somewhat surprising result I think it's more likely to be that dubs win by 12+ instead of the expected 6 ish.
hard game for the neutral to pick a team to favour.

But if you pick a team to favour then you are no longer neutral anyway?

STB.

Last year's championship semi final was also the test of two managers in Gavin's favour by some way.

Sean Cavanaghs last game. Remember some great pics of him and Cluxton.

yobr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is quite clear in the year stats I posted showing Dublin's winning margins that 'finals' are different beasts altogether.

All other games and histories seem to go out the window.

I was responding to your second point about the tactical battle between the managers. In that context, previous meetings are important, and I think it’s clear that Gavin has the upper hand.

castletownman

STB- I wasn't using the stat as some sort of anti-Dublin or Jim Gavin remark. I was genuinely wondering whether any other manager done the same.

I haven't once questioned Gavin's standing as an all-time great manager either. You are putting words in my mouth. My original comment was giving a reason why I think it COULD be closer than predicted, using Harte's previous experiences in the finals, but still said that Dublin will more than likely win. And I don't know what relevance mentioning Tyrone not making an AI final in the last ten years has to your argument. Sure by the same token I could say Dublin weren't anywhere near an AI when Tyrone had that great team too.

You must be getting a bit nervous ahead of September 2nd

Powerhouse

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Quite easy to see why that is if you wanted to.

Tyrone compete in a far more competitive province than Dublin do with more banana skin matches on their route to a final than Dublin have faced over the years.

Not sure Ulster is as banana-skin laden as you appear to think. Donegal have reached seven of the last eight Ulster finals.

FrancieBrady

yobr wrote: »

I was responding to your second point about the tactical battle between the managers. In that context, previous meetings are important, and I think it’s clear that Gavin has the upper hand.

Gavin you would have to say, based on the stats and facts, has an issue with getting his teams to perform to their high scoring best in finals. Winning only one by more than a point. Harte has won his by 3 points or more with teams not renowned for racking up high scores.

Just stating the fact that there is a chink there that another can exploit.