Back to Education Allowance, refused. 22 days off requirement

5tuck

There's no way jobseekers will be processed in the two weeks before my college starts, it would have been great to know about that when I first got my offer a month ago. I won't be able to apply myself in college with this hanging over me, Ill be more busy looking for work and trying to pay bills/fees, I don't know if there are other punitive measures for dropping out as well, there's been plenty of those kinds of unforeseen things so far so it wouldn't surprise me.

What happens with jobpath if you get a job? Surely that nullifies any future BTEA eligibility.

Right now I'm considering going on JA and applying for BTEA next year, as I can defer my course. But I'm not sure if I'm allowed to apply for it with it so far away still, or what the rules are should jobpath contact me in the meantime.

Turnipman

5tuck wrote: »

I think all I can do right now is apply for disability, go on supplementary, change to jobseekers allowance if i get accepted into a course and then immediately go onto back to education. But I'm not even sure if that's possible. I'm sure there's someway they would reject me similar to this year.

Is the any chance that you could write down an outline of what your current Social Welfare situation is - and try to leave out all the whataboutery, because quite frankly it's very hard to advise you if you keep putting up nonsense like that quoted above.

What SW payment are/were you on? For how long?

Have you received any recent correspondence from DSP informing you that the benefit/allowance you were on has ended? If so, why?

Why did you go to one or more TDs before applying for BTEA?

The SW system is reasonably straightforward if you dance to their music and use their forms to apply for things - it's usually when people go off on tangents that things become complicated.

If you don't want to answer the above here, that's fine, but go to your local Citizens Information office asap - and bring any relevant correspondence from DSP with you.





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splinter65

Turnipman wrote: »

Is the any chance that you could write down an outline of what your current Social Welfare situation is - and try to leave out all the whataboutery, because quite frankly it's very hard to advise you if you keep putting up nonsense like that quoted above.

What SW payment are/were you on? For how long?

Have you received any recent correspondence from DSP informing you that the benefit/allowance you were on has ended? If so, why?

Why did you go to one or more TDs before applying for BTEA?

The SW system is reasonably straightforward if you dance to their music and use their forms to apply for things - it's usually when people go off on tangents that things become complicated.

If you don't want to answer the above here, that's fine, but go to your local Citizens Information office asap - and bring any relevant correspondence from DSP with you.





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An experienced information officer in CIC will cut through all this confusion and establish if there is an entitlement or not.
Often people posting here will ignore any advice other then the bits they wanted and expected to hear. Thats ok too.

5tuck

Turniphead, now I am on half the normal amount of SWA. I haven't received any correspondence from the DSP about anything ending lately. My doctor did tell me last week that he longer wanted to keep me on certs, he did also say he would give me my certs until my course started at the start of next month though. I have to try and see him today to understand what actually happened with my illness benefit being cut.

I was on illness benefit for something like 10 months, before that, I was on a combination of JSA and SWA for about 4 months before that.

When I called the DSP to enquire about BTEA, they told me they could not handle my claim, that it was an issue with illness benefit. I was then told by the officer in charge of moving such claims that I didnt have the number of days, that I was off by about a month, I would only be eligible for the payment in October.

I don't think I would have ended up on illness benefit if An Turas Nua hadn't contacted me, ironic that in trying to protect my entitlement to BTEA, I actually lost it.

Turnipman

5tuck wrote: »

Now I am on half the normal amount of SWA. I haven't received any correspondence from the DSP about anything ending lately.

I was on illness benefit for something like 10 months, before that, I was on a combination of JSA and SWA for about 4 months before that.

When I called the DSP to enquire about BTEA, they told me they could not handle my claim, that it was an issue with illness benefit. I was then told by the officer in charge of moving such claims that I didnt have the number of days, that I was off by about a month, I would only be eligible for the payment in October.

I don't think I would have ended up on illness benefit if An Turas Nua hadn't contacted me, ironic that in trying to protect my entitlement to BTEA, I actually lost it.

Thanks. Pulling the above info into some sort of chronological order suggests that:-

1. You were on a combination of JSA and SWA for about 4 months.

2. While on JSA, You were referred to Turas Nua. It appears that the Turas Nua people advised you to apply for Illness Benefit (presumably as they decided that you weren't fit for work?)

4. You were on IB for "something like" 10 months.

Now, according to the rules "Illness Benefit is paid for a maximum of:
2 years (624 payment days) if you have at least 260 weeks of reckonable social insurance contributions* paid since you first started work
or
1 year (312 payment days) if you have between 104 and 259 weeks of reckonable social insurance contributions* paid since you first started work."/I]

Is it possible that you actually received IB for 12 months so have exhausted your entitlement to it?

5. And you are now receiving half SWA. But how did you get switched from Illness Benefit to SWA if your GP is still signing IB forms for you? Could it have been because you told them you were going back to education and would be looking for BTEA? As you know, "You cannot undertake a training or educational course without prior, written approval from the DEASP. You must apply to the Illness Benefit section for this approval."

Finally, DSP have recently told you that there is some unexplained problem with your illness benefit, which renders you ineligible for BTEA.

Is that an accurate summary? Because I can't understand how you could arbitrarily have been knocked off IB without being given any notice or an opportunity to appeal, so I can only suspect that it must have been triggered by your BTEA intentions.

I also fail to understand how or why you were switched to half-SWA without having to apply for it.

You really should go to Citizens Info to see if they can help you to find out what's has been going on; they may need to FoI your Welfare file to see what has happened. Good luck!

November Golf

Op, contact your local welfare office and ask for to speak with a jobs facilitator.

They should give you the contact details.

The jobs facilitator can make a "recommendation" for your wife to get the BTEA.

5tuck

Turnipman wrote: »

2. While on JSA, You were referred to Turas Nua. It appears that the Turas Nua people advised you to apply for Illness Benefit (presumably as they decided that you weren't fit for work?)

This was my doing as much as them, I completely panicked in hindsight. I had went to a few meetings there, but I didn't really express that I wanted to go back to college to them, as I thought they wouldn't care and might use it against me. I explained that I wasn't well at the time, and we both came to the conclusion I should go on IB. I obviously understood the BTEA eligibility completely incorrectly at the time, because that's why I'm in the position I am now.

Turnipman wrote: »

5. And you are now receiving half SWA. But how did you get switched from Illness Benefit to SWA if your GP is still signing IB forms for you? Could it have been because you told them you were going back to education and would be looking for BTEA? As you know, "You cannot undertake a training or educational course without prior, written approval from the DEASP. You must apply to the Illness Benefit section for this approval."

I was always on half a payment of IB and SWA, its actually a little more like 40% IB/ 60% SWA. I think this is because I had no tax credits when I went on IB. My IB would've run out in October, which is also when I would have been eligible for BTEA.

Turnipman wrote: »

Finally, DSP have recently told you that there is some unexplained problem with your illness benefit, which renders you ineligible for BTEA.

Is that an accurate summary? Because I can't understand how you could arbitrarily have been knocked off IB without being given any notice or an opportunity to appeal, so I can only suspect that it must have been triggered by your BTEA intentions.

DSP have not told me I'm off IB, 2 TD's offices have told me. There may be some mix up due to the fact that IB has been on holidays from what I gather, and my payment may not have showed up.

I called my CIC yesterday morning but haven't heard back yet. About a year too late I guess. I have no one to blame but myself, these are the consequences when you are a distrustful, paranoid, apathetic and scared person I guess, as sad as that is to say.

Turnipman

5tuck wrote: »

I was always on half a payment of IB and SWA, its actually a little more like 40% IB/ 60% SWA.
I think this is because I had no tax credits when I went on IB.

Tax credits have nothing to do with payment of IB - Social Welfare pay IB, revenue deal with taxes.

Do you mean PRSI credits?

5tuck wrote: »

DSP have not told me I'm off IB, 2 TD's offices have told me. There may be some mix up due to the fact that IB has been on holidays from what I gather, and my payment may not have showed up.

If IB Section is "on holidays" then how could they have told 2 TD's offices that your IB has stopped? (Do you see my point here?)

To me it is completely impossible to believe that the DSP would have stopped your IB without writing to you explaining why, giving you a chance to appeal and telling you what other payment to apply for (probably DA).

Why not send an online enquiry here:- https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/secure/GENENQ.aspx asking why, according to 2 TD's offices, your IB has been stopped without DSP writing to you to inform you.

splinter65

5tuck wrote: »

This was my doing as much as them, I completely panicked in hindsight. I had went to a few meetings there, but I didn't really express that I wanted to go back to college to them, as I thought they wouldn't care and might use it against me. I explained that I wasn't well at the time, and we both came to the conclusion I should go on IB. I obviously understood the BTEA eligibility completely incorrectly at the time, because that's why I'm in the position I am now.




I was always on half a payment of IB and SWA, its actually a little more like 40% IB/ 60% SWA. I think this is because I had no tax credits when I went on IB. My IB would've run out in October, which is also when I would have been eligible for BTEA.




DSP have not told me I'm off IB, 2 TD's offices have told me. There may be some mix up due to the fact that IB has been on holidays from what I gather, and my payment may not have showed up.

I called my CIC yesterday morning but haven't heard back yet. About a year too late I guess. I have no one to blame but myself, these are the consequences when you are a distrustful, paranoid, apathetic and scared person I guess, as sad as that is to say.

5tuck you’re getting very bogged down in some serious negativity here.
I think that you’ve been making some huge assumptions about how DSP operates (IB are not “on holidays”, how on earth would that work) without actually making very much effort to establish actual facts.
It’s kind of easier to wander around thinking that the whole system is rigged to scupper your plans rather then go and sit down and establish exactly what you and your family are entitled too.
Is there any reason why you can’t actually visit your local CIC on Monday and let an information officer look at your situation ?

5tuck

Turnipman wrote: »

Do you mean PRSI credits?

I'm not sure what I mean, I was just told by the IB department that my IB runs out in October, that its only a year long because of my situation.

Turnipman wrote: »

If IB Section is "on holidays" then how could they have told 2 TD's offices that your IB has stopped? (Do you see my point here?)

To me it is completely impossible to believe that the DSP would have stopped your IB without writing to you explaining why, giving you a chance to appeal and telling you what other payment to apply for (probably DA).

Why not send an online enquiry here:- https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/secure/GENENQ.aspx asking why, according to 2 TD's offices, your IB has been stopped without DSP writing to you to inform you.

I see your point, and I'm not sure where they got that information from.

I hadn't handed my last two slips in when they contacted, I don't know if that led them to believe the payment was lapsed or whether it caused someone in IB or the DSP to consider it lapsed. I guess I will know next week depending on whether I receive a payment or not. Me and my doctor also had agreed that I would stay on slips until the start of my course in September, but because of all of this uncertainty, when I seen my doctor last week I said that might have to change, and we had a disagreement, so I thought maybe my doctor was responsible for it ending early. I had no idea how the process works until you outlined it more for me here.

splinter65 wrote: »

5tuck you’re getting very bogged down in some serious negativity here.
I think that you’ve been making some huge assumptions about how DSP operates (IB are not “on holidays”, how on earth would that work) without actually making very much effort to establish actual facts.
It’s kind of easier to wander around thinking that the whole system is rigged to scupper your plans rather then go and sit down and establish exactly what you and your family are entitled too.
Is there any reason why you can’t actually visit your local CIC on Monday and let an information officer look at your situation ?

I thought I read about the "holiday" from some thread I was reading here, apologies.

I don't know why I think this way, it's already cost me a whole lot more than this incident too. It's very hard to explain or even understand myself.

I'm due a phone call from CIC Monday, but I need to see my doctor so I might just go and see them then. I think I was under the impression that the CIC aren't very good, I don't know why that is, probably the same method of thinking as usual.

splinter65

I’m sorry for where you are right now and you do need to be worried about where your going next.
I think you’ve a lot of head stuff going on that’s dragging you down very badly. You have excuses and reasons for more or less everything that is wrong with your situation, most of it I fear is to do with not wanting to face up to reality which would mean that you would have to be proactive instead of reactive. (Reacting is just about all you are doing right now. It requires no effort on your behalf and allows you to keep blaming outside forces).
DSP are wrong CIC are reputedly wrong (but you rang them anyway...)your doctor is wrong...see where this is going?
It’s not good and it never ends well. Talk to your doctor about it on Monday. He will help you.

5tuck

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m sorry for where you are right now and you do need to be worried about where your going next.
I think you’ve a lot of head stuff going on that’s dragging you down very badly. You have excuses and reasons for more or less everything that is wrong with your situation, most of it I fear is to do with not wanting to face up to reality which would mean that you would have to be proactive instead of reactive. (Reacting is just about all you are doing right now. It requires no effort on your behalf and allows you to keep blaming outside forces).
DSP are wrong CIC are reputedly wrong (but you rang them anyway...)your doctor is wrong...see where this is going?
It’s not good and it never ends well. Talk to your doctor about it on Monday. He will help you.

I've stated clearly that I'm mainly in this position because of my own doing, I more or less agree with the sentiment of the first half of your post, but I haven't said the DSP, CIC or my doctor are "wrong". I haven't dealt with the DSP at all, because when I called them they told me my issue doesn't involve them, it involves IB, which I presumed is a completely different body from how DSP advised me to contact them.

I should have interacted with the CIC more, that's on me. I never said they were wrong about anything. Honestly the only times I've ever spoke with CIC they just refer to the info on their website, and they can have just as much difficulty with this stuff. Looking back I think I did ring them about this last year actually, but its not their fault I made the decisions I did, I should have kept hounding them until I was fully aware but I guess I willfully ignored any issues I thought were capable if arising.

I never said my doctor was wrong, its much more likely he's right and im wrong, isn't it? He is a doctor after all. Because me and my doctor have had a disagreement, you're inferring I think he's wrong, which isn't necessarily true at all. Its just hard to take that he might be right.

November Golf

5tuck,

IB is a short term payment of 1 to 2 years and linked to PRSI contributions. If it was stopped its most likely because you exhausted your entitlement to IB.

The DSP IB section should have contacted you and informed you but nevertheless, you need to contact your local DSP office

If you are still not fit for work you need to apply for ether disability (short-term) or invalidity pension (long-term).

If you are fit for work and your IB was stopped more that 6 months ago, you need to reapply for JA but your DSP local office can advise if you can open a repeat claim or open a new claim.

Once your back on JA you will have to ask if your time spent of IB or previous JA/JB can be used to meet the BTEA requirement.

splinter65

5tuck wrote: »

I've stated clearly that I'm mainly in this position because of my own doing, I more or less agree with the sentiment of the first half of your post, but I haven't said the DSP, CIC or my doctor are "wrong". I haven't dealt with the DSP at all, because when I called them they told me my issue doesn't involve them, it involves IB, which I presumed is a completely different body from how DSP advised me to contact them.

I should have interacted with the CIC more, that's on me. I never said they were wrong about anything. Honestly the only times I've ever spoke with CIC they just refer to the info on their website, and they can have just as much difficulty with this stuff. Looking back I think I did ring them about this last year actually, but its not their fault I made the decisions I did, I should have kept hounding them until I was fully aware but I guess I willfully ignored any issues I thought were capable if arising.

I never said my doctor was wrong, its much more likely he's right and im wrong, isn't it? He is a doctor after all. Because me and my doctor have had a disagreement, you're inferring I think he's wrong, which isn't necessarily true at all. Its just hard to take that he might be right.

5tuck I genuinely feel for you and I think now that your issues are way way outside the remit of anonymous posters on a message board. You need to sit down with your doctor and tell him about your negativity. You’ll get help and you’ll soon be back on track. But it’s out for me here.

5tuck

Just off the phone with Citizens Information. They had to ring me back twice afterwards, because they needed to go and ask other people questions in regard to my situation.

In the end I was told that I need to be on IB for two years to get BTEA on IB, which is contrary what I've been told previously (I was told before I would have been eligible in October.) They also told me that I had to be on JSA to change over the BTEA, according to someone at the DSP that she called and asked.

She said she couldn't advise me any further. I asked if it was possible for me to change to JSA, and then immediately apply for BTEA for next year, seeing as I would already have been accepted onto my course for next year, but she said she couldn't advise me on that, as there is nothing about deferred applicants on the advice page. She said I would have to go on JSA when my IB runs out in October and "see what happens" next year.

5tuck

So right now I'm in the position of going back to college on 50 euro a week at the very best. Its more likely I'll only get 20. Looks like I'll be paying at least a grand in college fees as well. Looking for work but I'm well out of my league in that regard.

I can foresee myself starting the course and signing off altogether, finding it too hard to cope and then deferring, in which case I'd be back to square one with the DSP, as I will have very few days on a payment and then maybe I would not be eligible for next year because of that.

That might sound like nonsense, but seeing as the Citizens information can't actually provide me any information as to how that would work, I'm left trying to figure this out myself. Those who said this was simply really don't understand how convoluted certain circumstances can be, I've talked to a half dozen people about this and most of them don't understand it, and can't really advise me on how to proceed