Dairy Chitchat 3

Gawddawggonnit

visatorro wrote: »

Not being smart but I find that very hard to believe. If it is then its huge for merchant debt. But if there isn't a heap of farms up for sale next year then they are getting away with it and everything will be fine!

Merchants/Coops are the very last to push for a liquidation. The first thing a farmer does, if the tap is closed, is to go to another Merchant/Coop...gets difficult and a bit complicated then. While the farmers are still trading they’ve some hope of getting paid but if the tap is turned off...

alps

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Spoke earlier today to an employee of a large Irish Coop.
He told me that many, many dairy farms are in debt (merchant credit) to the tune of €1k/cow, and that it’s no bother for the Coop at all. He mentioned that this years fert would be included in that.

I personally find it a bit incredible...

Could it be close to the truth?

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store


Unfortunately true Dawg...

Plays out in either of 2 ways..

The co-ops are caring, sensitive to the needs of hard pressed suppliers, many who are in the twilight of their careers, who have a small number of years left to retirement and rather than rocking the boat, will nurse them along to the day of reckoning...

Or


Coops require milk. They need these guys to stay producing...its vital. The poor producer is now in the unenviable position of paying colossal interest rates, along with an impossible negotiating position re inputs, and if they want to be thrown some sort of income, are now in the position that they just have to go along with it..

In effect, the coop pay for inputs, pay for outputs, and give the farmer what's left over in between...

Read the T&C's on the back of the statement of the large Cork Coop....it reads to me to be an invoice discounting scheme to B of I...

That's where the funding for this is coming...

Good or bad? Honestly hard to say, other that in many many cases, at retirement, current assets will just about clear liabilities...

Say my name

Timmaay wrote: »

Say delete some of your pm's in you inbox!

Done.

Panch18

Our trading account is cleared monthly from the milk account - vast majority of all purchases is through the coop.

That's the way we have always worked and will continue to do so.

Gawddawggonnit

alps wrote: »

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store


Unfortunately true Dawg...

Plays out in either of 2 ways..

The co-ops are caring, sensitive to the needs of hard pressed suppliers, many who are in the twilight of their careers, who have a small number of years left to retirement and rather than rocking the boat, will nurse them along to the day of reckoning...

Or


Coops require milk. They need these guys to stay producing...its vital. The poor producer is now in the unenviable position of paying colossal interest rates, along with an impossible negotiating position re inputs, and if they want to be thrown some sort of income, are now in the position that they just have to go along with it..

In effect, the coop pay for inputs, pay for outputs, and give the farmer what's left over in between...

Read the T&C's on the back of the statement of the large Cork Coop....it reads to me to be an invoice discounting scheme to B of I...

That's where the funding for this is coming...

Good or bad? Honestly hard to say, other that in many many cases, at retirement, current assets will just about clear liabilities...

Ah yes, the Merchants/Coops must be invoice discounting.

Option A or B wouldn’t be a good place for a family farm to be in fairness.

Same crap goes on here but without the debt. Local Coop called Cavac have full and total control of the farmers in the county. I wasn’t long here when I happened to be in the next door neighbors farm as an artic of sprays arrived...in February!
The farm is mixed beef/poultry/cereals with 420ha. I asked how the feck you’d know what chemicals you’d need,in Feb? The farmers (group of 5) didn’t even know what price the chems were. Cavac supply all inputs, you don’t ask the price, they sell/market all beef/poultry/cereals, give you the difference, and a share dividend is paid at the end of the year.
Cavac even do and lodge the area aid for the farmers...
They have to pay for all delivered inputs within 30days.
In the surrounding five parishes there are three farmers not involved in Cavac, I’m one.

straight

Panch18 wrote: »

Our trading account is cleared monthly from the milk account - vast majority of all purchases is through the coop.

That's the way we have always worked and will continue to do so.

But what about the person down the road that has alot more cows. Are u not envious of him?

Panch18

straight wrote: »

But what about the person down the road that has alot more cows. Are u not envious of him?

It's less cows I want not more!!

straight

Panch18 wrote: »

It's less cows I want not more!!

Ah that's all wrong lad. You need to expand.

Panch18

straight wrote: »

Ah that's all wrong lad. You need to expand.

I'm backwards I know

From now on my new mantra will be - Must have more cows, must have more cows, must have more cows

whelan2

Panch18 wrote: »

Our trading account is cleared monthly from the milk account - vast majority of all purchases is through the coop.

That's the way we have always worked and will continue to do so.

I'd say you're in the minority. Fair play to you though

Gawddawggonnit

Panch18 wrote: »

Our trading account is cleared monthly from the milk account - vast majority of all purchases is through the coop.

That's the way we have always worked and will continue to do so.

Your a good Coop man!

Do you price around before buying something from your Coop?
Do you get any preferential treatment?



Do they file the area aid for you? .

Panch18

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Your a good Coop man!

Do you price around before buying something from your Coop?
Do you get any preferential treatment?



Do they file the area aid for you? .

Not a good coop man at all, Glanbia are the greatest shower of bast”””ds god ever created.

And are they the cheapest? Most definitely not. We price around for the big lump of fertiliser for silage but to be honest for most of the summer we just order it from Glanbia, same with the nuts. We don’t price around

There are 2 main reasons for this, 1 is that there are no hidden or surprise bills, the milk check is our own and for none coop stuff. Secondly the rebate that we got in during the winter was a welcome boost to cash flow at a time when there was no milk supply, a little like a savings scheme.

Now this mightn’t be to everyone’s taste but it’s how we do it. But I find it amazing that some people run up massive trading bills to be honest. I couldn’t and wouldn’t live with that so it’s just taken from the milk

whelan2

Panch18 wrote: »

Not a good coop man at all, Glanbia are the greatest shower of bast”””ds god ever created.

And are they the cheapest? Most definitely not. We price around for the big lump of fertiliser for silage but to be honest for most of the summer we just order it from Glanbia, same with the nuts. We don’t price around

There are 2 main reasons for this, 1 is that there are no hidden or surprise bills, the milk check is our own and for none coop stuff. Secondly the rebate that we got in during the winter was a welcome boost to cash flow at a time when there was no milk supply, a little like a savings scheme.

Now this mightn’t be to everyone’s taste but it’s how we do it. But I find it amazing that some people run up massive trading bills to be honest. I couldn’t and wouldn’t live with that so it’s just taken from the milk

Ridiculous credit limits and absolutely scandalous 23 per cent interest rate. Banks charge a fraction of that interest rate. Tbh I owe them feck all and never go over 3 months with what I do owe them. They are definitely not the cheapest or best quality for a lot of stuff

Mortelaro

The rebate is .75c a litre at a time when glanbia is up to 2c behind other processors (and constantly competing to be the lowest payer in Europe) and if the products are dearer which a lot of them are,how in Gods name is it a welcome gift at all?
Then you have the other farce whereby the CoOp subsidises milk price with your own shares that the lemmings voted to give them the use of for that purpose

Its legalised abuse ok'ed by and acquiesced by the abusee's

It's a laughable situation, does it go on in any other business and farmers themselves are partly to blame albeit backed into a corner by what is a low margin business anyway,a problem exacerbated by the abuse

GrasstoMilk

Panch18 wrote: »

Not a good coop man at all, Glanbia are the greatest shower of bast”””ds god ever created.

And are they the cheapest? Most definitely not. We price around for the big lump of fertiliser for silage but to be honest for most of the summer we just order it from Glanbia, same with the nuts. We don’t price around

There are 2 main reasons for this, 1 is that there are no hidden or surprise bills, the milk check is our own and for none coop stuff. Secondly the rebate that we got in during the winter was a welcome boost to cash flow at a time when there was no milk supply, a little like a savings scheme.

Now this mightn’t be to everyone’s taste but it’s how we do it. But I find it amazing that some people run up massive trading bills to be honest. I couldn’t and wouldn’t live with that so it’s just taken from the milk

Do you mean they take what you agree to out of milk cheque and give you the rest?
We get the whole milk cheque and pay for that months inputs from it.

Gawddawggonnit

Mortelaro wrote: »

The rebate is .75c a litre at a time when glanbia is up to 2c behind other processors (and constantly competing to be the lowest payer in Europe) and if the products are dearer which a lot of them are,how in Gods name is it a welcome gift at all?
Then you have the other farce whereby the CoOp subsidises milk price with your own shares that the lemmings voted to give them the use of for that purpose

Its legalised abuse ok'ed by and acquiesced by the abusee's

It's a laughable situation, does it go on in any other business and farmers themselves are partly to blame albeit backed into a corner by what is a low margin business anyway,a problem exacerbated by the abuse

Farmers have a weird kind of relationship with their Coops and merchants. I don’t know why, but they do.
I’ll describe a small example;
Three farmers and yours truly, decided that we’d start a grain/chemical/fert/ etc/etc/ merchant business. Fair enough. Between us we’d over 12k hectares and two grain storage (etc) dépôts. (I’m the small farmer but I’ve international contacts with large distributors etc and speak English). We secured a ‘door’ in the local port to be able to export grains etc. One could be forgiven for thinking it could be a pretty secure business plan...not so!
Farmers, while receptive to a new merchant are reluctant to leave their ‘Führer’. We get about 10%, at most, of their yearly spend. Customers totally agree that we’re cheaper and offer a better service...but won’t commit to only small purchases. We’ve become ‘handy’. Cavac and surrounding Coops have gone to extreme lengths to shut us down which we expected, but oddly enough the private merchants didn’t even cast us a glance.
The fierce loyalty to Coops that ride them to death is really hard to comprehend, and tbh, it’s disheartening. No accounting for folk I suppose.

Waffletraktor

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Mortelaro wrote: »

The rebate is .75c a litre at a time when glanbia is up to 2c behind other processors (and constantly competing to be the lowest payer in Europe) and if the products are dearer which a lot of them are,how in Gods name is it a welcome gift at all?
Then you have the other farce whereby the CoOp subsidises milk price with your own shares that the lemmings voted to give them the use of for that purpose

Its legalised abuse ok'ed by and acquiesced by the abusee's

It's a laughable situation, does it go on in any other business and farmers themselves are partly to blame albeit backed into a corner by what is a low margin business anyway,a problem exacerbated by the abuse

Farmers have a weird kind of relationship with their Coops and merchants. I don’t know why, but they do.
I’ll describe a small example;
Three farmers and yours truly, decided that we’d start a grain/chemical/fert/ etc/etc/ merchant business. Fair enough. Between us we’d over 12k hectares and two grain storage (etc) dépôts. (I’m the small farmer but I’ve international contacts with large distributors etc and speak English). We secured a ‘door’ in the local port to be able to export grains etc. One could be forgiven for thinking it could be a pretty secure business plan...not so!
Farmers, while receptive to a new merchant are reluctant to leave their ‘Führer’. We get about 10%, at most, of their yearly spend. Customers totally agree that we’re cheaper and offer a better service...but won’t commit to only small purchases. We’ve become ‘handy’. Cavac and surrounding Coops have gone to extreme lengths to shut us down which we expected, but oddly enough the private merchants didn’t even cast us a glance.
The fierce loyalty to Coops that ride them to death is really hard to comprehend, and tbh, it’s disheartening. No accounting for folk I suppose.

Claas dealer here still can’t comprehend we bought a nh combine(actually hires with option to bye but don’t tell him). Both about same price but the extra 50k on insurance over the next 5 years ‘cause they can’t stop cooking themsleves(insurance bod) left the door open for nh.
Came back on d-day(last day to order for garunteed delivery) with an offer almost closing the difference but fook them, best price up front we’d have had a deal.

Gawddawggonnit

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Claas dealer here still can’t comprehend we bought a nh combine(actually hires with option to bye but don’t tell him). Both about same price but the extra 50k on insurance over the next 5 years ‘cause they can’t stop cooking themsleves(insurance bod) left the door open for nh.
Came back on d-day(last day to order for garunteed delivery) with an offer almost closing the difference but fook them, best price up front we’d have had a deal.

Since you’ve been a loyal Class customer I’d expect them to equal or even better the quote from NH. There must be some reward for being a good client. Is the NH backup as good as Claas?

I presume it’s the 10.90?
We’d a 9230 and 30’cut in wheat last year. Local contractor was at it for a neighbor in the same field with a 10.90 and a 40’ cut. He was doing 0.7km faster and with an extra 10’. Very impressive indeed.
I would wonder how they would cope in a wet harvest in lodged sprouted wheat?

jaymla627

whelan2 wrote: »

Ridiculous credit limits and absolutely scandalous 23 per cent interest rate. Banks charge a fraction of that interest rate. Tbh I owe them feck all and never go over 3 months with what I do owe them. They are definitely not the cheapest or best quality for a lot of stuff

Fertilizer and sprays they’re extremely competitive, once you deal with branch manager, computer price at the counter can be got down 20-25% in most cases, last artic load of fert I bought they where 20 euro cheaper per ton than 3 other independent merchants I priced

whelan2

jaymla627 wrote: »

Fertilizer and sprays they’re extremely competitive, once you deal with branch manager, computer price at the counter can be got down 20-25% in most cases, last artic load of fert I bought they where 20 euro cheaper per ton than 3 other independent merchants I priced

No point haggling over a price if you're going to be charged 23% interest.

Timmaay

jaymla627 wrote: »

Fertilizer and sprays they’re extremely competitive, once you deal with branch manager, computer price at the counter can be got down 20-25% in most cases, last artic load of fert I bought they where 20 euro cheaper per ton than 3 other independent merchants I priced

That's only really if you buy in large bulk, like 15t+ of fert or meal in the one order. Them computer prices are an absolute joke also, on everything like milk powder, bags of calf nuts etc. I've give up even asking the dude behind the counter to put down the proper price, I simply tell my branch manager to put in the actual prices when I'm paying, last time I got an 800e discount on the joke prices across the whole bill. I wounder do many lads actually get shafted with full prices??

jaymla627

whelan2 wrote: »

No point haggling over a price if you're going to be charged 23% interest.

Once your paying within 90 days their isn’t any, if you cant keep your account half way right, you’ll have no chance with them to be fair...
Its big pinch with seasonal calving systems re cash flow and relying on extended credit to get through the winter, last years drought compounded it with accounts not cleared and a big wedge of 18’s bill carried into this year

visatorro

Panch18 wrote: »

It's less cows I want not more!!

I thought I was alone!!

Reggie.

Panch18 wrote: »

Our trading account is cleared monthly from the milk account - vast majority of all purchases is through the coop.

That's the way we have always worked and will continue to do so.

BIL is the very same. Chased me all day till I gave him the invoice for last month. He wants every months Bill's on the last day of each month

older by the day

I put my bill on the milk account every month too. I deal with drinagh and maybe I might save a bit here and there . You get a bonus on your purchases paid for the previous year. Often got two ton of nuts delivered on the same day when stuck or when the branch worker would drop a couple of rolls of bale wrap at my house because I couldn't make it before six.

mengele

What's the story now with paying casual labour generally? Are most paid cash or do they accept cheque? Could really do with someone on weekends or evenings for tractor driving jobs etc. What's the going rate per hour?

whelan2

jaymla627 wrote: »

Once your paying within 90 days their isn’t any, if you cant keep your account half way right, you’ll have no chance with them to be fair...
Its big pinch with seasonal calving systems re cash flow and relying on extended credit to get through the winter, last years drought compounded it with accounts not cleared and a big wedge of 18’s bill carried into this year

Maybe your account is different but interest is charged on everyone else's after 30 days

GrasstoMilk

whelan2 wrote: »

Maybe your account is different but interest is charged on everyone else's after 30 days

It is but if you pay within 90 days they will knock it off

whelan2

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

It is but if you pay within 90 days they will knock it off

Never happened here. I always pay within 90 days. Just looked through a few months statements. No interest on any of them. It says payment terms 4 months. I read the back of an invoice and that is totally confusing.

arctic8dave

According to dairygold annual accounts there was 81.4 million out in credit on 31/12/18. This was total credit out and not all owed by its 2800 milk suppliers.

Mortelaro

I don't know of anyone except on here that gets their 23% interest back in full
I can tell you for s fact its charged after 30 days not 90 days
It's one of the tricks of the trade not to offer it back when paid in full
Whether that's deliberate or lazy,you decide...
The other is not to refund a rogue tbc or cell
Both are worth millions

Panch18

visatorro wrote: »

I thought I was alone!!

Oh god you're not

We were a lot better off financially milking 70 cows years ago than we are milking 140 now - so twice the work and no extra money!!

Looking at various ways to change things but no decision made yet

Panch18

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Do you mean they take what you agree to out of milk cheque and give you the rest?
We get the whole milk cheque and pay for that months inputs from it.

We get paid net of the deductions

Water John

Older By The Day, doing business with Drinagh would be different than dealing with most Processors.
A well known farmer from another part of the country said to me last week, Drinagh was probably the only true coop in the country.

Sacrolyte

My current merchant debt up to the end of June is €170/cow. The bill seems quite high but somehow after reading some of the above posts I mightn’t be doing too bad.

Timmaay

Panch18 wrote: »

visatorro wrote: »

I thought I was alone!!

Oh god you're not

We were a lot better off financially milking 70 cows years ago than we are milking 140 now - so twice the work and no extra money!!

Looking at various ways to change things but no decision made yet

Just on reflection why didn't the 140 work out in terms of no extra money? Were yous over borrowed? Too much rented land/ extra labour etc? We use to milk 80 cows calving Ayr, the 120 spring only setup we have now is I'd say 1/2 to 1/3 the Labour hours of them days, and most certainly significantly more profitable. Obviously the most of that is due to better efficiency, but increasing cow numbers has been a no brainer along the way.

JeffKenna

Anyone go to Moorepark today? What did you make of it?

kevthegaff

I work off 3 different merchants inc co op, I always refuse to pay interest. I'll price off one other before buying. I try to buy fertilizer in bulk as I hate showing lads where to drop it! I'd love to be able to pay upfront but always seem to owe them a few bob..

straight

JeffKenna wrote: »

Anyone go to Moorepark today? What did you make of it?

Well worth going. They're still pushing bigger herds and crossbreds though which wouldn't be my thing. Apparently it's all possible in 44 hours a week.

Panch18

Timmaay wrote: »

Just on reflection why didn't the 140 work out in terms of no extra money? Were yous over borrowed? Too much rented land/ extra labour etc? We use to milk 80 cows calving Ayr, the 120 spring only setup we have now is I'd say 1/2 to 1/3 the Labour hours of them days, and most certainly significantly more profitable. Obviously the most of that is due to better efficiency, but increasing cow numbers has been a no brainer along the way.

No borrowings, all buildings and land paid for on the cow side
No extra labour, it’s always been only family
Our rented land is only 10-15% of total rented and is not at a ridiculous price

The reason we are no better off is that the price of milk has barely moved upwards in the last 30 years but the costs have gone through the roof. Everything from diesel to fertiliser to wages in other places being forced down to us in costs

We are spending way more time drawing silage in and slurry out

Last year is a great example of why being average to highly stocked could end up breaking you. That would never have happened when we only had 70 cows. When you have everything pushed to the limit there is no room for droughts or milk price collapse or anything else

Just to add - it also boils down to the fact that the rest of society has become many times better off than they were 30 years ago. Back then if you made any bit of money you were automatically better off than the vast majority of the population. That’s why fellas with 20 cows could put kids through university. It’s gone a full 180 now whereby farmers are the poor in society, income wise

Panch18

straight wrote: »

Well worth going. They're still pushing bigger herds and crossbreds though which wouldn't be my thing. Apparently it's all possible in 44 hours a week.

44 hours????

Am I missing something

GrasstoMilk

Mortelaro wrote: »

I don't know of anyone except on here that gets their 23% interest back in full
I can tell you for s fact its charged after 30 days not 90 days
It's one of the tricks of the trade not to offer it back when paid in full
Whether that's deliberate or lazy,you decide...
The other is not to refund a rogue tbc or cell
Both are worth millions

You need to be harder on them. I dont deal.with the bench manager, he has no say with regards to interest on the account.
Any where we deal with doesn't charge interest if paid within 90 days

mahoney_j

straight wrote: »

Well worth going. They're still pushing bigger herds and crossbreds though which wouldn't be my thing. Apparently it's all possible in 44 hours a week.

Just home great day but Yeadh still pushing expansion and more milk but ......: I asked Lawrence shalooo a question and was most dossapounted with the response it read something along have we a market for all this extra milk that will be produced ,secondly he said our green image grass fed milk is commanding a premium and thirdly why on the continent are they been paid a premium way above our coop prices for there milk despite been in a shed and fed tmr
The conversation was moved on with no answer and I was asked to side where I still got no answer .some here may say I was negative but I don’t think I was .the reality is likes of tegasc etc are talking great stuff but clear answers are hard come by .great day but this response dissapointed me

wrangler

Panch18 wrote: »

No borrowings, all buildings and land paid for on the cow side
No extra labour, it’s always been only family
Our rented land is only 10-15% of total rented and is not at a ridiculous price

The reason we are no better off is that the price of milk has barely moved upwards in the last 30 years but the costs have gone through the roof. Everything from diesel to fertiliser to wages in other places being forced down to us in costs

We are spending way more time drawing silage in and slurry out

Last year is a great example of why being average to highly stocked could end up breaking you. That would never have happened when we only had 70 cows. When you have everything pushed to the limit there is no room for droughts or milk price collapse or anything else

Just to add - it also boils down to the fact that the rest of society has become many times better off than they were 30 years ago. Back then if you made any bit of money you were automatically better off than the vast majority of the population. That’s why fellas with 20 cows could put kids through university. It’s gone a full 180 now whereby farmers are the poor in society, income wise

signs are on it too, with the sensible family members walking away.
There's plenty of new herds starting up here but there's good herds finishing up too,I can't see the majority of workers on big dairy farms being young Irish

Water John

Well Mahony, there either selling the produce as a premium product or a base product at a commodity price, you're entitled to a straight answer.

cjpm

JeffKenna wrote: »

Anyone go to Moorepark today? What did you make of it?

I don't think their trailing shoe demo went to plan. 2 plots were grazed bare and given 3000 gal slurry, one with splash plate, the other using the shoe. After the trial there was only 50 of a difference in the covers (1350 vs 1400) and tbh it wasn't really noticeable.

Of course they also did their usual 3k gallons on a big cover trial too. Why anyone with a brain would spread slurry that heavy (or at all) on long grass is beyond me

Buford T. Justice XIX

Panch18 wrote: »

44 hours????

Am I missing something

Just a wee bit. One discussion group wanted to measure labour efficiency and they set a target of a 60 hour week for the majority of the year. The ones pursuing it made time savings by being more organised but there was still a big variation on time spent farming each week.

The 44 hours was at the lower end of the time spent farming:P

straight

cjpm wrote: »

I don't think their trailing shoe demo went to plan. 2 plots were grazed bare and given 3000 gal slurry, one with splash plate, the other using the shoe. After the trial there was only 50 of a difference in the covers (1350 vs 1400) and tbh it wasn't really noticeable.

Of course they also did their usual 3k gallons on a big cover trial too. Why anyone with a brain would spread slurry that heavy (or at all) on long grass is beyond me

I was sold on the dribble bar until I saw it. No difference.

jaymla627

Water John wrote: »

Well Mahony, there either selling the produce as a premium product or a base product at a commodity price, you're entitled to a straight answer.

If trump pulled the trigger and slapped the proposed tariffs he’s outlined, the one shining light that is Kerrygold butter to the US would be sunk over night, but you won’t hear our vaunted Teagasc specialists discussing a issue that mighten toe the partyline

straight

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Just a wee bit. One discussion group wanted to measure labour efficiency and they set a target of a 60 hour week for the majority of the year. The ones pursuing it made time savings by being more organised but there was still a big variation on time spent farming each week.

The 44 hours was at the lower end of the time spent farming:P

And by all accounts spending less time per LU did not affect performance. So just sit back lads and relax.