Dairy Chitchat 3

Castlekeeper

Water John wrote: »

Well 10 culls is 10% of 100 cows. Thus 9/10 lactations.
15 cows is 15% of 100 cows. Thus 6/7 lactations.

Ah yes, but in an expanding herd one wouldn't be cullng hard as was the point I was replying to, so I kept it to the absolute hypothetical minimum.
Harder culling only lowers the average herd age even more and makes the point even more obvious.

Castlekeeper

BTW before everything gets lost in translation here's the context of the original reply.
It's not a blueprint for me expansion!

Water John

My point is, going from 100 to 200 from inhouse heifers in 3 years unrealistic.
A 5 year time frame, it would be possible.

awaywithyou

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Ah yes, but in an expanding herd one wouldn't be cullng hard as was the point I was replying to, so I kept it to the absolute hypothetical minimum.
Harder culling only lowers the average herd age even more.

Had 3 cows bulling this morning... one of them doing 39 liters/day.... one of the other cows decided to jump up on my 39 liter lady in the holding pen... knocked her.... I was nearby... got her up... knew there was a problem straight away... dislocated hip.... bye bye....

A guy with a 100 cows will have up to 5 cows go to the knackery in the year as well as culling 10 cows... out of 40 heifers there will be problems with 2 or 3.... a guy with 200 cows could have 10 cows down over the course of the year as well as culling 15 cows and with 50 heifers coming in... 4 or 5 of them could go wrong....

As I said ur n dreamland thinking it’s that simple to grow ur herd.... sorry if I’m a bit mean with u... I’m fair sour over my cow....

green daries

awaywithyou wrote: »

Had 3 cows bulling this morning... one of them doing 39 liters/day.... one of the other cows decided to jump up on my 39 liter lady in the holding pen... knocked her.... I was nearby... got her up... knew there was a problem straight away... dislocated hip.... bye bye....

A guy with a 100 cows will have up to 5 cows go to the knackery in the year as well as culling 10 cows... out of 40 heifers there will be problems with 2 or 3.... a guy with 200 cows could have 10 cows down over the course of the year as well as culling 15 cows and with 50 heifers coming in... 4 or 5 of them could go wrong....

As I said ur n dreamland thinking it’s that simple to grow ur herd.... sorry if I’m a bit mean with u... I’m fair sour over my cow....

That is a pain its very annoying losing good milking stock that way but yes you make a very valid point on replacement rates and that is also before a percentage of the herd is sold on due to being late calving / not incalf

Castlekeeper

Water John wrote: »

My point is, going from 100 to 200 from inhouse heifers in 3 years unrealistic.
A 5 year time frame, it would be possible.

I'd have had to write 5 lines then, I got to 200 very handy the way I did it.

Millionaire only not

awaywithyou wrote: »

Had 3 cows bulling this morning... one of them doing 39 liters/day.... one of the other cows decided to jump up on my 39 liter lady in the holding pen... knocked her.... I was nearby... got her up... knew there was a problem straight away... dislocated hip.... bye bye....

A guy with a 100 cows will have up to 5 cows go to the knackery in the year as well as culling 10 cows... out of 40 heifers there will be problems with 2 or 3.... a guy with 200 cows could have 10 cows down over the course of the year as well as culling 15 cows and with 50 heifers coming in... 4 or 5 of them could go wrong....

As I said ur n dreamland thinking it’s that simple to grow ur herd.... sorry if I’m a bit mean with u... I’m fair sour over my cow....

Never happens a bad one for some reason.

I’d agree with u on growing the herd , especially high milking herd . There a problem cow and anyone putting out high figures have high turnover of cows anyone saying different is well u know what !

Castlekeeper

awaywithyou wrote: »

Had 3 cows bulling this morning... one of them doing 39 liters/day.... one of the other cows decided to jump up on my 39 liter lady in the holding pen... knocked her.... I was nearby... got her up... knew there was a problem straight away... dislocated hip.... bye bye....

A guy with a 100 cows will have up to 5 cows go to the knackery in the year as well as culling 10 cows... out of 40 heifers there will be problems with 2 or 3.... a guy with 200 cows could have 10 cows down over the course of the year as well as culling 15 cows and with 50 heifers coming in... 4 or 5 of them could go wrong....

As I said ur n dreamland thinking it’s that simple to grow ur herd.... sorry if I’m a bit mean with u... I’m fair sour over my cow....

Hard luck about the cow alright, these things happen.
Btw as you insist on being so derogatory, please realise that you are again missing the point I was replying to and discussing which I've tried to point our repeatedly and I'll try again, it was a hypothetical few simpe sums to show that an expanding national herd coud have an impact on the average lactation number of the herd.
As a dairy farmer for a few decades, I'm well aware of what can and does go wrong. Sweet dreams.

Castlekeeper

green daries wrote: »

That is a pain its very annoying losing good milking stock that way but yes you make a very valid point on replacement rates and that is also before a percentage of the herd is sold on due to being late calving / not incalf

Yeah, II'd say you'd want to ramp it up to 30%.

Gawddawggonnit

cosatron wrote: »

as turn out is around 22 march, we usually go with a bag to the acre after every grazing so as our rotation is 28 days that's about 6 or 7 bags of 18-6-12 or 24-2.5-10 to acre for the year and slurry on paddocks in October weather permitting so roughly around 126 to 150 units per acre. not in derogation, we export the majority of our slurry to come in under 170.

Are you actually exporting slurry or is it just a paper exercise?

Gawddawggonnit

cosatron wrote: »

we've being exporting slurry for the last 15 years and we are keeping the wolves from the door and if it ain't broken why fix it.

You’ve an interesting slant on dairying.
Focusing on milk production rather than grass production. It’s refreshing to see someone that thinks completely differently to those focusing on grass production and numbers of cows.
Fair dues.

cosatron

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Are you actually exporting slurry or is it just a paper exercise?

Yes we actually do. We live in an area that wouldn't be farmed intensively and lads around the place love to take it. Being doing it for years, it suits us and it suits them. I know what we do isnt conventional but it works and has done for years and it knocks the best out of our land.

mahoney_j

cosatron wrote: »

Yes we actually do. We live in an area that wouldn't be farmed intensively and lads around the place love to take it. Being doing it for years, it suits us and it suits them. I know what we do isnt conventional but it works and has done for years and it knocks the best out of our land.

Fair point u spread a lot of p and k (chemical)at a cost of ???? And u export out organic p and k in form of slurryfor????. to stay out of something that u are now going to have to farm under anyway (dero)not expectinh u to answer here but are u remaining compliant ;are u now spreading all slurry with less technology and are u spreading more chemical p than allowed .if I was in your shoes I’d be going into dero and keeping my slurry .there is absolutely nothing to be afraid of in dero and from what you’ve outlined there’s absolutely no reason for you not to be in it

farisfat

I don't think their is much difference in profit of indoor or grass based systems when both are done well.
For me it's grass based with xbreed cows because it's what I like and think it's easier on man and beast.

GrasstoMilk

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

You’ve an interesting slant on dairying.
Focusing on milk production rather than grass production. It’s refreshing to see someone that thinks completely differently to those focusing on grass production and numbers of cows.
Fair dues.

What would you suggest we feed cows if we didnt focus on grass?

Say my name

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

What would you suggest we feed cows if we didnt focus on grass?

I think this conversation was had 20 years ago as well.
Except then it was had at clearance sales of the liquid guys in the Wicklow area and some in north wexford.
The wheel keeps turning.

cosatron

mahoney_j wrote: »

Fair point u spread a lot of p and k (chemical)at a cost of ???? And u export out organic p and k in form of slurryfor????. to stay out of something that u are now going to have to farm under anyway (dero)not expectinh u to answer here but are u remaining compliant ;are u now spreading all slurry with less technology and are u spreading more chemical p than allowed .if I was in your shoes I’d be going into dero and keeping my slurry .there is absolutely nothing to be afraid of in dero and from what you’ve outlined there’s absolutely no reason for you not to be in it

Dont worry j there is enough slurry being spread on our land and works well with the fertilizer were spreading.

mahoney_j

cosatron wrote: »

Dont worry j there is enough slurry being spread on our land and works well with the fertilizer were spreading.

Again not doubting u but .......I won’t ask again cause I think I know and u know the answer .not poking holes here as many ways to skin a cat but there’s clear guidelines now re dero ,lesss technology and allowable amounts of p in praticular we’re allowed spread

cosatron

thisyear wrote: »

What makes you think derogation is going to go?

How else are the government going to cull the milking herd when things get out of control. At present in the intensive dairy area’s the water quality in the rivers and stream is getting worse. We are way off target with the emissions and government are going after the farmer as that’s what they always do. With the level of new entrants and expansion something has to give.

cosatron

mahoney_j wrote: »

Again not doubting u but .......I won’t ask again cause I think I know and u know the answer .not poking holes here as many ways to skin a cat but there’s clear guidelines now re dero ,lesss technology and allowable amounts of p in praticular we’re allowed spread

Sound. We will leave it at that, i just read the guidelines there and it’s not for me 😀

mahoney_j

cosatron wrote: »

How else are the government going to cull the milking herd when things get out of control. At present in the intensive dairy area’s the water quality in the rivers and stream is getting worse. We are way off target with the emissions and government are going after the farmer as that’s what they always do. With the level of new entrants and expansion something has to give.

If u read the guidelines like u said u do relaise if u stay as u are exporting slurry to remain out of dero u are going to be treated as a farmer in dero anyway more or less .from what we’ve been told farmers like in your position (not singling u out )are the ones that will be targeted for inspections etc .i seriously can’t see your reluctance to going in there is absolutely nothing to be afraid of in it

mahoney_j

cosatron wrote: »

Sound. We will leave it at that, i just read the guidelines there and it’s not for me 😀

So which guidelines are not for you ....again not poking holes but struggling to see where the big reluctance to dero is comming from

Mooooo

Mahoneys point is that as you are, exporting slurry to keep below 170, you are in the area which the department will be targeting to bring into derogation rules next whether you like it or not. No one is doubting What you are doing, it's just if you think staying out of derogation is gonna do anything for you it's not really. Also a lot of the areas with water quality issues aren't in the intensive dairy areas. No 1 is towns, villages , etc with insufficient or no waste water treatment, It's lads spraying mcpa to kill rushes and it going straight into water, and also lads with insufficient facilities many of whom aren't in derogation at all which is the reason the next thing likely to be done is to either lower the limit for entering derogation to catch more lads in the inspection net and eventually bring all farmers to the same standards as those in derogation. Fert plans, etc

mahoney_j

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

What would you suggest we feed cows if we didnt focus on grass?

Agree grass followed by genetics these are the 2 areas to be got right before extra feed even comes into it

cosatron

mahoney_j wrote: »

If u read the guidelines like u said u do relaise if u stay as u are exporting slurry to remain out of dero u are going to be treated as a farmer in dero anyway more or less .from what we’ve been told farmers like in your position (not singling u out )are the ones that will be targeted for inspections etc .i seriously can’t see your reluctance to going in there is absolutely nothing to be afraid of in it

The department are more than welcome to come, ive nothing to hide, I’m as compliant as any farmer and the last bord bia inspection I had to give an account of my fertilizer and there was no issue.
Things I don’t like about dero.
Use of urea. I don’t like that manure, it’s too hard on the cows. I prefer compounds.
Over use of slurry, once a year is enough for ground to get slurry and preferable at the back end of the year.
Grass measuring, never grass measured, never will.
Reseeding, I haven’t reseeded a paddock in a long time and I’m not going to start to please the department.
There a few, as I said before, I’m happy with the way we’re farming, the cows are in good nick, have plenty of grass and it’s the way I want to farm and believe it or not we’re doing alright financial and we’re not chasing our tails like allot of lads.

mahoney_j

cosatron wrote: »

The department are more than welcome to come, ive nothing to hide, I’m as compliant as any farmer and the last bord bia inspection I had to give an account of my fertilizer and there was no issue.
Things I don’t like about dero.
Use of urea. I don’t like that manure, it’s too hard on the cows. I prefer compounds.
Over use of slurry, once a year is enough for ground to get slurry and preferable at the back end of the year.
Grass measuring, never grass measured, never will.
Reseeding, I haven’t reseeded a paddock in a long time and I’m not going to start to please the department.
There a few, as I said before, I’m happy with the way we’re farming, the cows are in good nick, have plenty of grass and it’s the way I want to farm and believe it or not we’re doing alright financial and we’re not chasing our tails like allot of lads.

Fair enough but I think you need to read the same dero guidelines the rest of us adher to and Fertliser isn’t part of any bord bia audit I’ve done ..as u say it’s working for you .....

whelan2

mahoney_j wrote: »

Fair enough but I think you need to read the same dero guidelines the rest of us adher to and Fertliser isn’t part of any bord bia audit I’ve done ..as u say it’s working for you .....

You do have to fill in fertiliser usage under the survey in the bord bia inspection. I had mine on Thursday

jaymla627

cosatron wrote: »

The department are more than welcome to come, ive nothing to hide, I’m as compliant as any farmer and the last bord bia inspection I had to give an account of my fertilizer and there was no issue.
Things I don’t like about dero.
Use of urea. I don’t like that manure, it’s too hard on the cows. I prefer compounds.
Over use of slurry, once a year is enough for ground to get slurry and preferable at the back end of the year.
Grass measuring, never grass measured, never will.
Reseeding, I haven’t reseeded a paddock in a long time and I’m not going to start to please the department.
There a few, as I said before, I’m happy with the way we’re farming, the cows are in good nick, have plenty of grass and it’s the way I want to farm and believe it or not we’re doing alright financial and we’re not chasing our tails like allot of lads.

New reseeds having to have a certain % of clover in the mix, followed up by the only clover safe spray for grass reseeds now been banned by the eu is the standout point that the department of agriculture hasnt a bulls notion,
what the eu has envisioned for european agriculture that will strangle output and not give near enough financial compensation with the yearly dole money while expecting farmers to compete on commodity markets with countries who can basicaly do as they please re chemical usage, gm crops etc isnt logical

mahoney_j

whelan2 wrote: »

You do have to fill in fertiliser usage under the survey in the bord bia inspection. I had mine on Thursday

Is that new Whelan ??my next one is due September .fertliser (p usage)question was more from x compliance perspective

whelan2

It's just a survey you are supposed to fill in before the inspection. You also put in slurry and dung spread but not the amounts of slurry or dung just the dates and amount of acres spread on and % you spread then

GrasstoMilk

whelan2 wrote: »

You do have to fill in fertiliser usage under the survey in the bord bia inspection. I had mine on Thursday

What was involved in the online inspection whelan? We're due ours soon

Buford T. Justice XIX

cosatron wrote: »

The department are more than welcome to come, ive nothing to hide, I’m as compliant as any farmer and the last bord bia inspection I had to give an account of my fertilizer and there was no issue.
Things I don’t like about dero.

Tbh, most of the things you've listed are not required in derogation.

Use of urea. I don’t like that manure, it’s too hard on the cows. I prefer compounds.

There's no requirement to spread Urea anywhere in the derogation regulations. You can spread whatever N compounds you like when you like for a little while longer, anyway. There is a push on protected Urea targeting all farmers in an effort to reduce GHGs levels. If enough don't adopt the use of Urea, there's a good chance that it will be compulsory to use a certain quantity or the other N fertilisers will be subject to a levy to promote use of Urea.

Over use of slurry, once a year is enough for ground to get slurry and preferable at the back end of the year.

I'd argue with you on that. The nitrogen levels in slurry are best used in spring and are less sunject to washing out with heavy rains when grass growths are good and rising rather than good and falling. And large amounts of slurry at one time wouldn't be good for grass regardless of the time of year.

Grass measuring, never grass measured, never will.

That's fine but, sooner or later, it's going to be a requirement for most as more and more farms will be dragged into the requirements of derogation. Outside of that, it gives an indication of which areas are producing lower than the rest of the farm and gives you an area to investigate why this paddock is producing less than that paddock even if both look similar.
And every farmer measures grass whether they realise it or not. Some put numbers on it to help management decisions others are happy once they can see enough grass ahead of the cows.

Reseeding, I haven’t reseeded a paddock in a long time and I’m not going to start to please the department.

There's no requirement in derogation to reseed any paddock in a farm. But at some stage, grass will need to be replaced on certain areas of your farm. That's just good management rather than a Dept regulation.
They do require inclusion of clover in the seed mixes used on derogation farms though.

There a few, as I said before, I’m happy with the way we’re farming, the cows are in good nick, have plenty of grass and it’s the way I want to farm and believe it or not we’re doing alright financial and we’re not chasing our tails like allot of lads.

If you're happy then that's great. But the requirements are coming down the line whether you want them to or not and you will have to comply with them whether you want to or not.

whelan2

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

What was involved in the online inspection whelan? We're due ours soon

You'll get a letter with 24 different categories for photos. Photos of dairy, parlour, clusters, milk collection area, opened first aid kit, drugs shed, meal storage, silage pit, bale storage, photos of stock. Photos of well water testing, 3 recent milk collection dockets, farm safety statement, pesticide usage, feed dockets, drugs usage...... these to be uploaded 2 days before inspection. Phone call then took about 90 minutes

Say my name

whelan2 wrote: »

You'll get a letter with 24 different categories for photos. Photos of dairy, parlour, clusters, milk collection area, opened first aid kit, drugs shed, meal storage, silage pit, bale storage, photos of stock. Photos of well water testing, 3 recent milk collection dockets, farm safety statement, pesticide usage, feed dockets, drugs usage...... these to be uploaded 2 days before inspection. Phone call then took about 90 minutes

Did they ask and did you give them access to your glanbia connect account?

whelan2

No he didn't ask. They just want photos of 3 recent dockets. They must have tbc on at least 1 of them

straight

whelan2 wrote: »

No he didn't ask. They just want photos of 3 recent dockets. They must have tbc on at least 1 of them

I throw away my dockets. I just show them on the milkedin app. Have my inspection coming up too but I didn't book it yet

Gawddawggonnit

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

What would you suggest we feed cows if we didnt focus on grass?

You’ve always struck me as an intelligent young man but you’ve swallowed the narrative hook, line, and sinker. The poster has shown an alternative view on dairying and gets jumped on because he doesn’t conform to the grass, ebi, reseeding etc narrative. I’m not saying that he’s right or wrong, I’m saying that it’s a breath of fresh air not to be hearing the repetition of the Bible according to Teagasc, ad nauseum. That’s all.

It’s my view that people nowadays prefer to hear untruths than the truth. These untruths then become conviction which leads people to become blinded by their own (spurious?) conviction. Remember, I started the conversation by posting about a couple of cows that are hundreds of days in lactation, and I suggested that it could be a solution to the xbred calves issue...funny how nobody took that up? Instead he gets jumped on for not being in derogation after he gave an outline on his system of expanding production.
Any half clever man can have two conflicting opinions and know that both can be totally wrong in themselves...

I’d an old Prof that used to say ‘meretricious is not synonymous with meritorious’.

If you get the time you should have a look at the movie Stalker. Well worth a watch.

* I not trying to offend or be derogatory towards you in any way!

Buford T. Justice XIX

Nice to see the silage ground greening up nicely.

Panch18

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Nice to see the silage ground greening up nicely.

How did you do yield wise?

We are back about a third I would say on last year - at a minimum

whelan2

Those who cut earlier in may, how is it looking now?

mahoney_j

whelan2 wrote: »

Those who cut earlier in may, how is it looking now?

Cut 3.5 weeks ago barely greened up but very dry ground tbf hoping the rain will drive it on but had second cut planned for around 07/07 right now not a hope

Timmaay

About 500 back on mine now, cut the 18th May. Have people being doing out fodder budgets, where do yous stand on them? 2nd cuts are usually only a bonus here anyways so no big loss having to graze everything from now on.

jaymla627

whelan2 wrote: »

Those who cut earlier in may, how is it looking now?

On heavier ground here it’s flying it, will be cutting end of June/ start of July, dry ground is a write of all shot out and barely a 1000kgs cover on it

mahoney_j

Timmaay wrote: »

About 500 back on mine now, cut the 18th May. Have people being doing out fodder budgets, where do yous stand on them? 2nd cuts are usually only a bonus here anyways so no big loss having to graze everything from now on.

Not panicing ,13 acres maize flying if ,first cut in dry and good quality 120 very good bales made .35 left over which I’m currently feeding .12 acres of low index ground to cut for haylage for pre calving .fairly well covered atm but still want another 48 acres over 2 cuts for pit .wont need colour of it for any normal winter but want a buffer and also should pick up another 100/150 bales of Milker silage beteween now and September

Buford T. Justice XIX

Panch18 wrote: »

How did you do yield wise?

We are back about a third I would say on last year - at a minimum

We did very well, tbh, Panch. The heavy ground was great and the light ground not so good. One field, a third heavy and 2/3 dry, gave about the same from each side of it, just to give an idea what way we were going.

I still have about 20 acres to bale as I was looking for 8 or 9 acres to buy in as insurance from a guy who downsized and he asked me to take another 5 acres that he couldn't let. The pit is full, almost bursting and the bales will do for when the cows are dry. Any second cuts will be baled for the milkers indoors in October and November, hopefully.

Better to be looking at it than looking for it:)

GrasstoMilk

whelan2 wrote: »

Those who cut earlier in may, how is it looking now?

Did half our first cut on the 8th of may. About 1000 back on it
Plan would have been to cut again the end of june but that's not likely now.
Rest was cut the 25th of may. Only starting to green up now but that was very heavy.

whelan2

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

We did very well, tbh, Panch. The heavy ground was great and the light ground not so good. One field, a third heavy and 2/3 dry, gave about the same from each side of it, just to give an idea what way we were going.

I still have about 20 acres to bale as I was looking for 8 or 9 acres to buy in as insurance from a guy who downsized and he asked me to take another 5 acres that he couldn't let. The pit is full, almost bursting and the bales will do for when the cows are dry. Any second cuts will be baled for the milkers indoors in October and November, hopefully.

Better to be looking at it than looking for it:)

Much effluent out of it?

Keepgrowing

mahoney_j wrote: »

Majority of suppliers are spring calving this leading to a peak for few weeks may June .watery milk ain’t the issue it’s the volume of milk we had one or 2 breakdowns over last few weeks and drivers were stuck for hours waiting to unload very little was able to be directed elsewhere .luckiky just short term .we as suppliers are subbing all this stainless we need to see better use made of it year round

Glad you agree, less volume will fix it in short term

mahoney_j

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Glad you agree, less volume will fix it in short term

The volume shows no sign of stopping tho lads still expanding and new entrants still comming in .on top of that better genetics and better feeding /grass are adding more from what’s already there spring milk is seeing most of the expansion and the peak in May June getting larger and larger and processing capacity despite massive investment is running near capacity .a plant breaks down in May June it’s a big deal as a neighbouring coop May only take so much after that truck drivers day thrown totally off and a lot of farms still can’t hold 3 days milk
Then over winter and at backend plants aren’t been fully utilised and some shut down .we as farmers have subbed all this ss so we should’ve demanding coops make better use of our money

Mooooo

whelan2 wrote: »

Those who cut earlier in may, how is it looking now?

Cut the 15 may, heavier field flying it, cover heading for 2k on it. Grazed half of drier field 4 days ago and the rest of it is stopped for second cut, about 1500 on it I'd say. Drier field experienced a bit of stress as a bit of stem in it. Hope to cut the end of the month/ start of July anyway. Have a month of feed worth of bales made outside of main cuts with more to do next week. First cut taken in early is less than normal so with bales probably equates to a first cut taken the 1 june volume wise but quality should be better and more after grass for grazing earlier along with full block available in mid july to allow me to save on meal. Something I targeted as late cuts last year in a spring system were a bollix, not so much an issue in split as demand would have dropped in August and Sept with cow's dry.
Growth actually dropped this week to 53 but any rain only came really in the last couple of days, was 67 week before. Having doubts about protected urea as well tbh which was spread on the last round.