Dairy Chitchat 3

Timmaay

Grueller wrote: »

Given the higher fixed costs per cow at 50 cows, what profit per cow is realistic? My accountant reckons €800-€1000. Is he correct?

800/cow is a reasonable rule of thumb figure for profit, but thats before tax, yourown wages, and any capital investment/repayments. Actually we have got this far without anyone asking how much of a BPS have you on the farm haha?

Grueller

Timmaay wrote: »

800/cow is a reasonable rule of thumb figure for profit, but thats before tax, yourown wages, and any capital investment/repayments. Actually we have got this far without anyone asking how much of a BPS have you on the farm haha?

BPS is reasonably good here. 800 x 50 is €40k. I have an off farm income of more than that again. If I went to 75 cows that leaves a more complicated system that requires machinery to bring in grass. This may mean leaving the off farm work which needs no fertiliser, contractors, meal etc. I would like to start smallish and I have enough land to have options for expansion.

Grueller

Timmaay wrote: »

Personally I think 50 cows is just too few, and very hard to justify how tied down to the system that you are, milking TAD, calving season erc. 75 would make a hell of alot more, 50 cows doing 5500l/yr would give you 82k in milksales (asuuming 30e/l), whereas the 75 would be 124k, that's a hell of a different, if you can hang onto a 1/3 as your salary that's 27k with the 50 cows against 41k with the 75, and them 75 will be very little extra work.

On being tied down, I currently run 75 sucklers plus work more hours than the four a day I can cut to. Being tied down will not really be new.

GrasstoMilk

Grueller wrote: »

Ground is very good for the grazing block. Free draining and I generally have some of the sucklers out on it from late February until at least mid November.
Silage block and replacement ground at out farm is 78 acres. It is over 8 miles from the yard though. It would nearly make sense to milk out there but it is a complete Greenfield and I live at the home farm.
I assume that you mean cut the 16 acres every 5 weeks for quality silage to avoid the zero grazing option. I would have thought that the zero grazer would have worked out the cheaper option?
Whole farm is 54 ha roughly. So roughly 130 head of stock by your calculation Mooooo. I would think that 50 cows, keep my replacements and also keep my 8-10 pedigree Limousins on the out farm as a hobby as it doesn't suit the milking system.
Like I said, please cut my ideas to shreds.

I think you would be mad not to consider milking on the 78 ac block Gruller.
You would milk 100 cows comfortably there. It would be an sr of 3.2 there. You could use the rest of your land for silage and buy in what ever replacements needed.
Build a 16 unit on the 78 ac block and put in feeding space for 100 cows within the collecting yard.
Calve all your cows at home and bring them out there, start calving mid Feb maybe?
It wont be cheap but if it's all owned land it should be feasible if you only have to borrow for infrastructure (your current stock will buy your dairy herd)
That's my 2 cents any way. 100 cows will allow you farm full time and you'll be able to run it on your own bar some spring time help

Mooooo

Grueller wrote: »

Ground is very good for the grazing block. Free draining and I generally have some of the sucklers out on it from late February until at least mid November.
Silage block and replacement ground at out farm is 78 acres. It is over 8 miles from the yard though. It would nearly make sense to milk out there but it is a complete Greenfield and I live at the home farm.
I assume that you mean cut the 16 acres every 5 weeks for quality silage to avoid the zero grazing option. I would have thought that the zero grazer would have worked out the cheaper option?
Whole farm is 54 ha roughly. So roughly 130 head of stock by your calculation Mooooo. I would think that 50 cows, keep my replacements and also keep my 8-10 pedigree Limousins on the out farm as a hobby as it doesn't suit the milking system.
Like I said, please cut my ideas to shreds.

You'll likely have enough grass for the middle 6 months of the year and then feed night or a few hours after milking etc in the shoulders so prob a mixture of both the bales and the zerograzing may work best. Depends on getting a contractor to do it. Neighbour is zerograzing and doing his own baling and they are on tractors morning noon and night for parts of the year between drawing in grass and bales and taking slurry out so particularly for yourself a good relationship with the contractor is important. Get the bales drawn home when made and feed when needed. Advantage of bales is you can throw them in the passage when it suits you. Could possibly look at using one of the blocks for outwintering replacements as well if it suits.
Bufords idea on replacements is good also but you'll have the outfarm to use anyway so perhaps not as much of an advantage,
When looking at the sheds make sure there is plenty feeding space anyway, you want each cow to be able to feed at the same time if buffer feeding.
Best job would be to find lads that are stocked at the 4/ ha fulltime on the milking block and go see their places and they will have come across any issues or things that make stuff easier. Teagasc advisor may point you in the right direction

Waffletraktor

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

That'll all come with experience and every parlour has a different wash routine, just to keep the relief milkers on their toes:)

Wouldnt worry about breaking out a notepad for each farmers prefered routine of doing thingd either. Easier train someone who is new than someone set in their way how you want it done.
Questions are always cheaper than fook up's.

Grueller

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I think you would be mad not to consider milking on the 78 ac block Gruller.
You would milk 100 cows comfortably there. It would be an sr of 3.2 there. You could use the rest of your land for silage and buy in what ever replacements needed.
Build a 16 unit on the 78 ac block and put in feeding space for 100 cows within the collecting yard.
Calve all your cows at home and bring them out there, start calving mid Feb maybe?
It wont be cheap but if it's all owned land it should be feasible if you only have to borrow for infrastructure (your current stock will buy your dairy herd)
That's my 2 cents any way. 100 cows will allow you farm full time and you'll be able to run it on your own bar some spring time help

Should have said that the outfarm is heavy land. It would only open up for grazing in April any year and close in October.
I think the idea of a second simple parlour and tank in time to comes as Buford says and do the first and last rotation at home and move out there then.
The big aim is to keep the off farm income for the years of 22 cent/L base price for milk.

Timmaay

Theoretical question here ha, if I was to pay a full time employee 24k/yr (they sort out their tax), what would it cost the farm?

Grueller

Timmaay wrote: »

Theoretical question here ha, if I was to pay a full time employee 24k/yr (they sort out their tax), what would it cost the farm?

€480 per week roughly. Hard to get anyone for that particularly as you are in the Dublin commuter zone I would think.

Water John

With your land parcels, using a grass/clover mix cut 3 times and baled, could be used as your buffer feed. On the shoulders of the year and the wet horrible night.
Also help reduce nut bill.

whelan2

Timmaay wrote: »

I got a page for both before and after milking printed out and laminated here, that I did up in Ms Word, complete with photos etc. About 7 or 8 individual steps in each. I usually only need to shadow any new milker's for at most 2 milkings before they get the hang of it, 1st milking you largely show them what to do while they read the instructions, 2nd milking you let them fully do it themselves, and correct anything if needs. After a week they usually have it all fully remembered and don't need the list.

Easy to follow even with a hamstring injury:)

Timmaay

Grueller wrote: »

€480 per week roughly. Hard to get anyone for that particularly as you are in the Dublin commuter zone I would think.

Nay I mean with prsi etc? What does the farm pay out per Yr?

Water John

TMK Timmay, this area has been tightened up big time. Anyone working regular is an employee and you're an employer. I think you also have to declare and pay up regular. An Q for you accountant.

Grueller I wouldn't be giving up the day job for a cow herd fulltime. You have €80K coming in before you milk a cow, there.

Grueller

Water John wrote: »

TMK Timmay, this area has been tightened up big time. Anyone working regular is an employee and you're an employer. I think you also have to declare and pay up regular. An Q for you accountant.

Grueller I wouldn't be giving up the day job for a cow herd fulltime. You have €80K coming in before you milk a cow, there.

I can reduce hours easily enough and increase them again if and when it suits WJ. That's why I want to keep the system simple and keep the reduced hours. The bottom line is
1. I want to spend more time farming
2. I hate the amount of work I put in withsucklers for no monetary benefit
3. If I can get €40k pre tax profit from a small dairy system I will be very happy as it puts me on a sound financial footing.
A few questions,
1. What figure for milk price should I put in for my calculations. Is 27 cent a reasonably conservative figure.
2. For 50 to 60 cows is a 10 unit parlour enough
3. Is a secondhand parlour a big risk?
4. Is my aim of €40k a pipe dream or is it realistic.
5. Is there a good guide out there for paddock size anywhere. I have an odd shaped grazing block and want to start planning possible sizes.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Timmaay wrote: »

Theoretical question here ha, if I was to pay a full time employee 24k/yr (they sort out their tax), what would it cost the farm?

I don't think that's allowed any more? There's been a change of rules on wages in the recent past so I'd say a chat with your accountant might be the best bet.

Say my name

Grueller wrote: »

Given the higher fixed costs per cow at 50 cows, what profit per cow is realistic? My accountant reckons €800-€1000. Is he correct?

€600 per cow for a 50 cow herd in a good year is more realistic.

What's access like for an articulated lorry in the yard?
Lorry drivers are getting more stricter about cows not being allowed on the yard where the lorry would be collecting the milk. So keep that in mind. Same with meal lorry.
As others have said I think 50 is rather a too small a number now to be committing to. There's as much work with 50 as would with 70 or 80.
And you know yourself with stock there's no such thing as a one man show. You will need additional help close by at times even for your own sanity and calving cows etc.

Wildsurfer

Grueller re paddock size: A cow will eat circa 18kg/dm per day. So for example 50 cows is 50x18kg=900kgdm per day i.e.24hrs. Best practice is 3 grazings per paddock which is 1.5 days so 900x1.5=1350kgdm/ha so in this case just under a 1 hectare paddock ideal as 1400 would be recommended pre grazing target. (1350÷1400=.96).

Grueller

Sorry for hijacking your thread lads and thanks for all of the help.

Water John

10/12 unit parlour is plenty, 3 rows a side. A good machine technician will source and install a good machine for you.
Start with the 50 cows and as you gain confidence and feel for it you can decide on possibly 70 cows.

liosnagceann75

Hi. Looking for some advice. My cows have been acting up the past week. They are reddening patches on the ditches and are crossing into the next paddock or field. They are also wearing a patch in the centre of an odd field. Cows got Eprinex/eprizero a month ago, have plenty of grass and they are also getting zero grazed grass. Granted I need to do a lot of fencing but never had this problem before. I'd appreciate any ideas as to what's going on. New Angus bull and 6 calved heifers introduced to the herd this spring

Wildsurfer

If anyone is interested, was reading another thread on best wet gear, and was checking out a recommended site waterproofs.ie. See they have neoprene sleeves for milking at €19. Have bought a few pairs of those on greggcare for €55 each. Not sure if same quality though.

GrasstoMilk

Wildsurfer wrote: »

If anyone is interested, was reading another thread on best wet gear, and was checking out a recommended site waterproofs.ie. See they have neoprene sleeves for milking at €19. Have bought a few pairs of those on greggcare for €55 each. Not sure if same quality though.

Friend bought those cheaper ones. Didnt last too long. I'm still on a pair of of dry cuffs I bought 2.5 years ago or more. Used daily. By far the best thing I ever bought.
I've a new pair in the house but wont use them till the current ones are bet

Say my name

liosnagceann75 wrote: »

Hi. Looking for some advice. My cows have been acting up the past week. They are reddening patches on the ditches and are crossing into the next paddock or field. They are also wearing a patch in the centre of an odd field. Cows got Eprinex/eprizero a month ago, have plenty of grass and they are also getting zero grazed grass. Granted I need to do a lot of fencing but never had this problem before. I'd appreciate any ideas as to what's going on. New Angus bull and 6 calved heifers introduced to the herd this spring

Flies?

Say my name

Say my name wrote: »

Flies?

Actually on flies. I thought this was fairly cool.
Hopefully link works.

https://www.facebook.com/StevePortersTrophyWhitetail/

It didn't really work.
But he has a nifty fly trap filmed on June 12th 2017.

Wildsurfer

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Wildsurfer wrote: »

If anyone is interested, was reading another thread on best wet gear, and was checking out a recommended site waterproofs.ie. See they have neoprene sleeves for milking at €19. Have bought a few pairs of those on greggcare for €55 each. Not sure if same quality though.

Friend bought those cheaper ones. Didnt last too long. I'm still on a pair of of dry cuffs I bought 2.5 years ago or more. Used daily. By far the best thing I ever bought.
I've a new pair in the house but wont use them till the current ones are bet

Ah fair enough, thought I'd stumbled across a bargain! You get what ya pay for stands. Thanks for heads up.

Wildsurfer

Could someone explain to me how to not quote both posts like I just did there...

whelan2

Wildsurfer wrote: »

Could someone explain to me how to not quote both posts like I just did there...

Just press post and not reply

Wildsurfer

whelan2 wrote: »

Wildsurfer wrote: »

Could someone explain to me how to not quote both posts like I just did there...

Just press post and not reply

No what I mean is I want to quote your reply to my post without including my original post also?

patsy_mccabe

Wildsurfer wrote: »

No what I mean is I want to quote your reply to my post without including my original post also?

Just go into edit and delete around it.

Castlekeeper

Grueller wrote: »

I can reduce hours easily enough and increase them again if and when it suits WJ. That's why I want to keep the system simple and keep the reduced hours. The bottom line is
1. I want to spend more time farming
2. I hate the amount of work I put in withsucklers for no monetary benefit
3. If I can get €40k pre tax profit from a small dairy system I will be very happy as it puts me on a sound financial footing.
A few questions,
1. What figure for milk price should I put in for my calculations. Is 27 cent a reasonably conservative figure.
2. For 50 to 60 cows is a 10 unit parlour enough
3. Is a secondhand parlour a big risk?
4. Is my aim of €40k a pipe dream or is it realistic.
5. Is there a good guide out there for paddock size anywhere. I have an odd shaped grazing block and want to start planning possible sizes.

Hi Grueller,
Just my tuppence worth her;

1. I'd say 27 is low, but that still means 30-32c/l actual price for your milk depending on solids.
2. 10 units is loads, 8 would have been traditional. Milking will go from 6-10mins/ round depending on the time of year.
3. Zero risk with a 2nd hand parlour. Get a good local and reliable installer and serviceman, you'll be thankful down the road when something goes bang on a weekend.
4. 40k is a bit high, esp on that milk price, you'd be nearly down to 30k with 50 cows I'd say.
5. I'd go 1.5 ha paddocks- 5 grazing, it leaves room for varying grass covers you can get 4-6 out of them without affecting performance and their a more reasonable size for working after. You'll be using strip wires anyway.
Paddocks are over- rated and hedges and ditches are vastly under- rated. I assume you already have fields, if so I'd keep them.


Best of luck and don't put yourself under too much pressure.

Ps Never have more cows than your partner can milk!

K.G.

Have dose of the manflu at the moment and yesterday there was sweat pouring off me trying to clear a few loads of effluent/dirty water as tank was nearly full.imagine this morning listening to radio while milking to hear Dublin beaches are closed due to irish water having to discharge due to high rainfall. One rule for some not for others. Manflu makes you a bit bitchy too

kevthegaff

I'd go with a 16 unit Grueller, u need to milk them fast if you have family or othe employment. I'd set up on the larger block also

Gawddawggonnit

K.G. wrote: »

Have dose of the manflu at the moment and yesterday there was sweat pouring off me trying to clear a few loads of effluent/dirty water as tank was nearly full.imagine this morning listening to radio while milking to hear Dublin beaches are closed due to irish water having to discharge due to high rainfall. One rule for some not for others. Manflu makes you a bit bitchy too

+1.
Disgraceful carryon.


I’m in hospital of late and I’ve pity for the staff...heatwave atm and extreme humidity equals hardship.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

+1.
Disgraceful carryon.


I’m in hospital of late and I’ve pity for the staff...heatwave atm and extreme humidity equals hardship.

Get well soon, Dawg. We miss your unique perspective on farming round here:)

kevthegaff

Few posters are gone from here last year kowtow was v enjoyable, farmer ed was controversial also

Castlekeeper

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Hi Grueller,
Just my tuppence worth her;

1. I'd say 27 is low, but that still means 30-32c/l actual price for your milk depending on solids.
2. 10 units is loads, 8 would have been traditional. Milking will go from 6-10mins/ round depending on the time of year.
3. Zero risk with a 2nd hand parlour. Get a good local and reliable installer and serviceman, you'll be thankful down the road when something goes bang on a weekend.
4. 40k is a bit high, esp on that milk price, you'd be nearly down to 30k with 50 cows I'd say.
5. I'd go 1.5 ha paddocks- 5 grazing, it leaves room for varying grass covers you can get 4-6 out of them without affecting performance and their a more reasonable size for working after. You'll be using strip wires anyway.
Paddocks are over- rated and hedges and ditches are vastly under- rated. I assume you already have fields, if so I'd keep them.


Best of luck and don't put yourself under too much pressure.

Ps Never have more cows than your partner can milk!

It just occurred to me that if it's the money your watching you'd make a lot more after tax if you let the land long term and you wouldn't have to work it at all. Keep a field for a few hobby cattle if you wanted.

wrangler

kevthegaff wrote: »

Few posters are gone from here last year kowtow was v enjoyable, farmer ed was controversial also

The names might be gone alright but the poster could be still here

Keep Sluicing

kevthegaff wrote: »

Few posters are gone from here last year kowtow was v enjoyable, farmer ed was controversial also

Kowtow is on Twitter almost daily.

Water John

Neither Kowtow or Farmer Ed are on here TMK. Both had a lot to contribute.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Latest Lyons notes below.
https://twitter.com/ucdagfood/status/1143466828905291782?s=19

Dakota Dan

Signpost wrote: »

If you can market crazy you'll make a fortune! http://www.lullabymilk.com/

Give some of it to the lad milking at 3.30am.

GrasstoMilk

Realistically apart from the associated costs with the second milking what other costs would be reduced by going OAD.
I'm told fertility is better and lameness very little but there lots of herds now that get well under 10% empty consistently, we would have a good herd here with regard to lameness.
I dunno could I make it work for us here
https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/rising-number-of-dairy-farmers-opting-for-oad-38248490.html

Grueller

Castlekeeper wrote: »

It just occurred to me that if it's the money your watching you'd make a lot more after tax if you let the land long term and you wouldn't have to work it at all. Keep a field for a few hobby cattle if you wanted.

No tis not really the money castlekeeper. I want to farm as close to full time as I can and I see the dairy option as being my best method to achieve that. If it was money I would keep my off farm employment as the priority as it pays better than farming realistically. You have to do what you think will make you happy.

Water John

It really is a case of horses/cows for courses. As much a lifestyle thing, less an economic one. OAD farms are likely to be stocked a bit less intensively also, leading to less pressure on the animal. More lactations per cow, lower replacement.

Mooooo

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Realistically apart from the associated costs with the second milking what other costs would be reduced by going OAD.
I'm told fertility is better and lameness very little but there lots of herds now that get well under 10% empty consistently, we would have a good herd here with regard to lameness.
I dunno could I make it work for us here
https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/rising-number-of-dairy-farmers-opting-for-oad-38248490.html

Tad herd should be targeting 500kg per cow, for that 211 cow herd if it was doing 500kg, the extra 124kgs of solids would bring in around 100k if I'm right, even allowing for 50k of that for extra feed etc They would have plenty to pay someone to do one of the milkings if needed

Timmaay

That's it Mooo, it simply would never pay here for me to go OAD instead of just paying a lad to milk half the time.

GrasstoMilk

Mooooo wrote: »

Tad herd should be targeting 500kg per cow, for that 211 cow herd if it was doing 500kg, the extra 124kgs of solids would bring in around 100k if I'm right, even allowing for 50k of that for extra feed etc They would have plenty to pay someone to do one of the milkings if needed

Going forward I'm hoping to bring in around 20% replacements every year. Replace what ever is empty (just say 10%, there will be a few l00⁰osses along the way inevitably aswell) and another 10% to replace the poor performing cows in the herd

Castlekeeper

Mooooo wrote: »

Tad herd should be targeting 500kg per cow, for that 211 cow herd if it was doing 500kg, the extra 124kgs of solids would bring in around 100k if I'm right, even allowing for 50k of that for extra feed etc They would have plenty to pay someone to do one of the milkings if needed

500 kgs ms is high yielding, not many doing it and all higher profit farms I ever came across were closer to the 450-470 mark.
There wouldn't be much in it when youd look at the whole system and then you have the quality of life. You don't see many oad farmers changing back to tad.

farisfat

Castlekeeper wrote: »

500 kgs ms is high yielding, not many doing it and all higher profit farms I ever came across were closer to the 450-470 mark.
There wouldn't be much in it when youd look at the whole system and then you have the quality of life. You don't see many oad farmers changing back to tad.

I'm doing around 450 tad and using oad at the wings of the year feeding around 500 kg of meal.
I've being on farms doing 400kgs on oad all year.
If I could hit 400kgs oad I don't think I'd be losing that much financial.

jaymla627

farisfat wrote: »

I'm doing around 450 tad and using oad at the wings of the year feeding around 500 kg of meal.
I've being on farms doing 400kgs on oad all year.
If I could hit 400kgs oad I don't think I'd be losing that much financial.

The balance between f and p would more than likely be in favor of fat in oad versus tad, so your 400kgs of milk solids wouldn’t have the same value per kg delivered as been on tad, latest milk statement here I averaged 4.45 euro per kilo ms versus the glanbia average of 4.22 euro, as my protein to fat ratio wasn’t far apart,
On 400kgs of milk solids delivered per cow I’d be coming out 80 euro better of then the average glanbia supplier