Nvidia RTX Discussion

Icyseanfitz

the problem is the 1080ti is not priced to be a 1070 replacement nor will it ever be. to the average gamer the cost of a 1080ti is not value, 700 euro on a new gpu is not a value proposition and should be high end, when you start going 1000 and over thats titan territory, always existed but where never seen as a real option due to the ludicrous cost for a single gpu. Everyone used to just wait for the xxxxti which gave close to titan performance for that 700euro price point.

The 2080 should have been a lot more than 0-10% ahead of a 1080ti, that should have been the 2070 spot imo, whats going to happen with the 2070? less than 1080ti performance for much in the same price?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

I get all your points in a general sense, but to lay it on the table I think day tracing looks amazing, I buy the hype and I want to see it on my own screen. The metro trailers are astonishing. We may have to re-calibrate our fps expectations but this tech IMHO is the new crisis, and look how that pushed PC gaming forward. I just cant stand turning any settings off. When tresFx was on tombraider it pissed me off. Every trailer from now on will be with epic ray tracing enabled then you get your game and the polish is gone....this I cannot tolerate.

I wish the 2080 was faster to raster. But the RTX imho I worth the 150 euro more than the 1080ti...think of it as an add on card if you want, If you dont just buy a 1080ti I hear Nvidia have one or two of them. I think nvidia were trying to get people off the fps merrygoround and onto the retracing one because pure fps performance has plateaued.

Titans were never purchased by professionals they got quatros with certified drivers. Titans was for rich gamers, but Nvidia was shy to say so. Now nvidia are just calling a spare a spade. I hope a lot of people buy the cards because that will push games to use it.

Apple do this all the time...people give out...products sell like hot cakes...cycle continues. I remember in the 90,s a good pc (dx266 . 64mb ram, 30gb hard disk...and the essential cd rom) was 6 or 7 thousand punt...we have it good these days. Also I wonder how many people would have been happy if their 10 series cards were rendered obsolete overnight? Little steps. Maybe next gen we will get a big performance leap, but I would say Nvidia are waiting to see if thats going to be raster or ray tracing they need to improve. Game developers all seem stoked, it wil cut development times significantly. Shame star citizen is on CryEngine 3, its going to look ancient by the time its finally released.

Seems 20 series cards are getting quite CPU limited even on 8700k overclocked, so another good reason to upgrade to the next gen cpus.....think I will go an pro-order one

Please read my posts tongue in cheek, I am just enthusiastic about it, looking forward to my new toy and delighted to have a good few reviews to digest. At least AMD is there for poor people that need to heat their homes as well as game........flame retardant suit on.....

Icyseanfitz

without a doubt raytracing is the future but to release a card marketed solely at that without even a single game with it enabled on day one is crazy. Would you be happy with 30fps at 1440p with a card that cost 1200euro?

TerrorFirmer

I think you're trying to polish a turd to be fair. Nvidia has been viciously price gouging since AMD stopped being competitive.

A GTX1080Ti becoming the 'new GTX1070' in terms of relative value is of no use whatsoever to most people, it's still a 700 euro card. Most people consider 300-400 the upper range - and that used to be pretty high-end.

In 2013, you could get an R9 290 or GTX970 that would blitz anything at ultra 1440p for around 350. Now, in 2018, five years later, to get a performance upgrade, you literally have to spend around 450-500.

In fact, just to get broadly speaking, similar performance, you have to spend almost what you paid five years ago! That's utterly absurd.

Yeah, there'll always be enthusiasts who'll purchase high-end cards no matter what the price...and that's fine. Those cards have always existed - the 7950 GX2, the 8800 Ultra, the GTX590 and 690, Titan, etc.

But they were the exceptions in the line-ups and ignored by most gamers. Problem is now, from a pricing POV, every single bloody Nvidia card is at enthusiast level except the low mid-range cards like the 1060 (and RX580 on the AMD side).

It's rotten, in principle. Like, you can try and say 'it's a business model based on market demand, that's how it works', but the same could be said of ticket scalpers either.

I will not be buying any RTX cards at those insane, ridiculous price points, on principle alone enough is just enough.

I know Intel got quite carried away with their pricing also for similar reasons, thank god that's been sharply curbed by Ryzen, but it's gotten far, far worse in the GPU market now.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Lets imagine that some people dont care so much about pricing.......I work in an industry where pieces of top tier technology cost 100;s of thousand.

lets imagine the top of the line Threadripper 2 2990 is not 1900 euro, or the iIntel Core i9 7980XE Extreme Ed., isnt 2 grand (both chips much simpler bits of silicone than a GPU).

Lets pretend that top tier technology doesnt cost a bomb always. The 20 series are the state of the art and will be for

Lets pretend that if you did want a 20 series card and had not preordered it you would get one this side of Christmas.

Lets pretend ticket scalpers that sell someting above market price due to scarcity are the same as a tech company that sell for a set price irregardless of yield.

Lets pretend that there isnt somebody waiting in line to purchase the card your not buying on principle at a moments notice.

People are salty not because they are happy with their 10 series cards but because they want to change but the value is not in it for them....

ED E

Really not sure what point you're grasping at there Fitz.

Icyseanfitz

The 2080ti won't be the "super high end only for rich people" card though! that will come in a few months in the form of titanrtx, guaranteed! Nvidia are pulling the piss on these cards with the lack of competition

btkm8unsl0w5r4

ED E wrote: »

Really not sure what point you're grasping at there Fitz.

Yes...I am rambeling a bit. My point is it doesnt matter a **** what your doing on principle, or how you feel, or what your value position is. When a company introduces a halo product the want is strong. Yeah a few conscious objectors will remain, but the zeitgeist will change. Top end cards cost 1500 euro now, thats thre reality. A top end phone now costs 1200 euro too. The new titan if it appears will sell well with grumbling from people who its not aimed at and most who would never buy it anyway. The middle ground is where most people live and thats where nvidia make their money. It would suck if you pre ordered a 2080 and owned a 1080ti but that would have been a strange decision anyway. If you have a 1070 or a 980ti the the 2080 seems to offer more of a little more than the 1080ti

cursai

I'm probably alone but I can't get with the hype about ray-tracing. To me it just looks like another type of lighting.
Sure it looks a bit better in the metro comparisons but in the battlefield one it looks like vaseline was poured in the car wreckage.
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, I don't know. But it just looks like another meh its cool but not worth it(physx), Nvidia exclusive add on.

Venom

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

The new titan if it appears will sell well with grumbling from people who its not aimed at and most who would never buy it anyway.

Can we please stop spouting this nonsense! The Titan cards are Halo level products aimed at gamers with more money than sense. Titan's are GTX branded, use exactly the same drivers as the rest of Nvidia's consumer cards and the last version even came out in Star Wars faction colour schemes.



The professional level cards start at 7k, are missing the GTX branding, require there own unique drivers and completely suck for playing games on.

Venom

cursai wrote: »

I'm probably alone but I can't get with the hype about ray-tracing. To me it just looks like another type of lighting.
Sure it looks a bit better in the metro comparisons but in the battlefield one it looks like vaseline was poured in the car wreckage.
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, I don't know. But it just looks like another meh its cool but not worth it(physx), Nvidia exclusive add on.

It really depends on the type of game I reckon. Something like a racing sim or open world over the shoulder type game could look much much better where with fast moving first-person shooter style games the extra details just won't be noticed. The RTX plug in code is claimed to be super easy to implement so unless there are major FPS drops when RTX is turned on, I can see it being a huge boon for Nvidia cards over future AMD offerings.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Your going to get a lot of shiny and watereffects with the early titles, but good devs will tone that down over time to a more realistic position, its like with tessellation, at first everything was like bubble wrap. The ray tracing when done well will give the scene that look of reality that you never get in games at the moment, all those little details of reflections of shadows, and reflections of reflections that you see in real life, and the global illumination which is far more exciting.

I think this shows it well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IIiQZw_p_E

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Venom wrote: »

Can we please stop spouting this nonsense! The Titan cards are Halo level products aimed at gamers with more money than sense. Titan's are GTX branded, use exactly the same drivers as the rest of Nvidia's consumer cards and the last version even came out in Star Wars faction colour schemes.



The professional level cards start at 7k, are missing the GTX branding, require there own unique drivers and completely suck for playing games on.

Hope that wasnt aimed at me, I maintain the titan is for wealthy gamers and always has been, said this overtly a few post back. But here is another thing people dont seem to get....for many people spending titan money is not a big deal, and gives them not a moments consideration.

If your making your decisions based on value or FPS per dollar, maybe Nvidia didnt have you in mind for the 1500 euro card. Its hard not to sound bad saying that, but its the truth The number of dual titan setup you see on water-cooling forums would amaze you. I have to say I would think twice spending 3k on a GPU unless it was amazing ( which the titans have never been) but seeing as GPU markets have been static for some time, lots and lots of people have spending budgets that will withstand this level of pricing. Ask what you would buy if price didnt matter to you....thats who preordered.

Reminds me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlOSdRMSG_k

TerrorFirmer

The part you're not getting is that we're not talking about a single card, we're talking about an entire generation of radically inflated prices.

As previously noted, the high-end, radically disporportionately priced cards have always existed in every generation without any complaint or issue. As you rightly say, most of those who were happy to pay those prices, the costing was irrelevant.

Since AMD stopped being competitive (or mildly competitive on poor footing, such as radically increased power demands), Nvidia pricing has rocketed in virtually every class, maybe bar the 750Ti/1050 level.

It's not much different than if Microsoft pulled out of the console race and next thing, the PS5 is suddenly €800. Would that be OK, just because a lot of people would buy it anyway?

The RTX2080 is around the same, maybe a little faster than a 1080Ti. In previous generations, this would basically mean the RTX2080 would be around £500, if the 1080ti was £650 at launch or whatever. Doesn't really matter about the new features, this has happened countless times in past generations also. Like GTX480 - GTX580 - GTX680 - GTX780 - GTX980. These were all priced pretty similarly on release, and each offered huge gains on the previous generation.

Now have a look at what happened pricing from the GTX970 - GTX1070 - RTX2070 when AMD stopped being competitive.

Or the GTX980 - GTX1080 - RTX2080. In fact, you could chart either line back the whole way with very few hiccups until the 1070 generation.

With AMD more or less helpless in this space, Nvidia just slap massive premiums on every class card just because they can. So instead of paying the same to get increased performance, you're either paying the same to get the same performance years later, or else paying a huge, crazy premium to get an upgrade....years later.

You can defend or make excuses for it, but it's a load of crap. I don't get why anyone would try and defend it, regardless of whether or not they can afford an RTX. I'm sure plenty people here can, but they've had enough of taking it over the table from Nvidia.

Dcully

@ fitzgeme you seem to be trying to justify your rush out to perorder,, dont worry we already know your insane :P

Inviere

Dcully wrote: »

@ fitzgeme you seem to be trying to justify your rush out to perorder,, dont worry we already know your insane :P

As well as it perhaps not being prudent to do that, since when does anything about being a PC enthusiast beg prudence? It's a nuts hobby at times, and I tip my cap at anyone selling a 1080Ti in order to buy a 20XX. Yes I'd agree with Terror that it's essentially a rip off, but feck it, we spend a fortune on this stuff all the time.

tuxy

Dcully wrote: »

@ fitzgeme you seem to be trying to justify your rush out to perorder,, dont worry we already know your insane :P

Cognitive dissidence every human is susceptible to it.

Blazer

The 2080 series are far from a halo card.
Nvidia are really taking the piss here regards price wise. A 1080ti launched around €700 and thanks to the crypto miners rapidly shot up in price.
Now Nvidia seems to have forgotten that cryptocurrency has crashed and there’s no longer anyone forming out ridulcous money for cards.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve no problem lashing out €1200 on a new iPhone or guitar or watch but over a grand on a card that Nvidia are gouging their customers on? Not a chance.
They pulled this crap years ago and it backfired badly on them for a few years when ATI came back strongly with a great performance/price cards.
If Nvidia aren’t careful the same thing will happen again.

Icyseanfitz

I was really considering upgrading from my 1080ti but it's just ridiculous. The ti is meant to be the high end sensible (if that can be said about any single pc component >400) option, not a halo product. The xx80 should then offer a substantial leap past last generations ti at around 600-700.
None of this is true of the new cards, the 2070 is going to be a complete waste of time and money.
Amd or Intel or anyone needs to get competitive

Metric Tensor

I also think nVidia are ripping the p!ss with the pricing of these cards. I suspect if AMD came out with a viable alternative tomorrow morning nVidia would miraculously realise they could sell a competitive card a lot cheaper.

However, let's not kill fitzgeme's excitement at his new 2080ti coming in the post. The buzz of new hardware coming in a box is what keeps us all visiting this forum and spending money we could probably put to better use elsewhere on the latest generation of hardware. Who here has LEDs inside their rig? What's the price to performance ratio on those?! ;-)

Upload some pics when you get the 2080ti fitzgeme - I will definitely not be buying one so I can't wait to live vicariously through you.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Blazer wrote: »

, I’ve no problem lashing out €1200 on a new iPhone or guitar or watch but over a grand on a card that Nvidia are gouging their customers on?

Come over to the watches and timepieces forum....1200 euro on a watch buys you whats classed as a sh1tter watch, its not till you get into the 10k+ bracket that things get serious. Guy on there just got a 25k patek (second hand), and the general consensus there is that its freekin awesome. I personally dont see the point in having a watch that expensive ( a 5 euro digital watch keeps better time) but I appreciate the collector element and the craftmanship in it. Nobody looses their minds, or calls him an idiot. People wait on lists for years for the watch they want, often watches they have never even tried on and pay a premium over list price for the honour. I myself am on a list for a watch I will likely never get, and if the dealer rings I will have to pay what is asked or I will never get another allocation in my life.

Agree the 2080 is a damp squib, but if the RTX takes off its got something going for it. The star wars demo posted above shows that. If DLSS is good (and it seems like its driver based not game based) performance is going to much much better than these initial reviews. Nvidia should have had that ready. Alway felt that AA was a resource hog and not worth the effort at high resolution. Deep learning is a much more elegant solution, and the way it works means you can render your ray traced game at 1080p and deep learn upscale it to 4k. Again negating the performance hit.

Why did I preorder...the crack I am getting out of this thread alone is worth the price of entry, and sure if it turned out to be totally crap all I lost is a little money, and it was always going to be the fastest single card going, and graphics cards are dead easy to flip If a titan comes out, I might flip the 2080ti to one of you greedy sinners and get that...because I absolutely love this stuff and have an understanding wife. Game I am most looking forward to is the new doom, and that will run on a potato.

TerrorFirmer...its not a entire generation of increased prices, its every generation from here on out, including AMD and intel. But when you look at the complexity of real time graphics chips these days its not much of a surprise. Low end and medium end pc gaming has never been cheaper, and will continue to get cheaper, but high end PC gaming is serious hobby. Most of you guys have rigs touching on 2 or 3k anyway so you know the score. Guy spend 800 euro on watercooling fittings alone that basically add nothing. Rigs light up like christmas trees to be show off as luxury items, noobs have 244htz monitors. Its a silly hobby mostly for big boys and their toys. In my steam library my most played title is 3dmark....whats that about?

Anyone wants a 1080ti for around 550 euro PM me...I will let you stroke the 2080ti when you collect it for a small extra fee.

Inquitus

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Come over to the watches and timepieces forum....1200 euro on a watch buys you whats classed as a sh1tter watch, its not till you get into the 10k+ bracket that things get serious. Guy on there just got a 25k patek (second hand), and the general consensus there is that its freekin awesome. I personally dont see the point in having a watch that expensive ( a 5 euro digital watch keeps better time) but I appreciate the collector element and the craftmanship in it. Nobody looses their minds, or calls him an idiot. People wait on lists for years for the watch they want, often watches they have never even tried on and pay a premium over list price for the honour. I myself am on a list for a watch I will likely never get, and if the dealer rings I will have to pay what is asked or I will never get another allocation in my life.

The Patek Philippe will largely hold its value, if not appreciate, and is not a bad investment, your 2080ti will be worth nothing in 5 years, not a well thought out comparison tbh!

Blazer

I actually go over to that forum
A lot of those watches are definitely not my taste but I appreciate they have their value and the high end ones are an investment.
It’s completely opposite to a video card though
Your 30k Rolex will still be worth at least close if not more than what you paid for it in 10-50 years time.
Your 2080ti on the other hand or indeed any video car , car etc won’t be.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Blazer wrote: »

I actually go over to that forum
A lot of those watches are definitely not my taste but I appreciate they have their value and the high end ones are an investment.
It’s completely opposite to a video card though
Your 30k Rolex will still be worth at least close if not more than what you paid for it in 10-50 years time.
Your 2080ti on the other hand or indeed any video car , car etc won’t be.

30k invested yeilds 7-10% over time per year on the S&p 500, 30k in a rolex if you get out what you have in it in 5 years has an oppertunity cost of 18 grand interest not earned, down the tube, you need to sell the watch for 48k to break even. They are a terrible investment and this idea of investment is mostly put out there to get chaps drop big bucks on otherwise worthless jewellery (dont get me started on my love of watches and the comminuty around them is awesome without a hint of begruggery). Go to 10 or 50 years and thing start looking really grim.

I actually buy PC parts with yield from investments from not buying watches. A car is a necessary item, but I have lost a lot of money on them, and loved every minute of it. The money you would pay to get a car to be 10% faster than another would make the 2080 to 1080ti look like childsplay, and tesla or Ferrari have no problem getting people to pre order. BMW for instance just raise the price on their m5 about 20k with little appreciable improvement in performance. Better technology and features, but for everyday driving on todays games roads it basically the same.

Dont be penny wise and pound foolish, when people start trying to be canny when it comes to hobbies the man maths goes into high gear. The worst money I ever spent was on thing like drink and fags and gambling. Never regret spending on computers if it gives you joy and comes out of money that you can afford to spend. Its a good clean hobby. The money I have saved being able to do my own IT has paid for itself many times over. I was once quoted 30k to fit out an office with 10 very basic PC's and a simple network. Did it myself for about 5k

Inquitus wrote: »

, not a well thought out comparison tbh!

Answered above, and no comparison was made. Mearly pointing out that a lot of hobbies have diminishing returns as you move to the high end. I have sold plenty of 5 year old graphics card. Hold about a third of their value.

Icyseanfitz

fitzgeme i hope you enjoy your new 2080ti Ive got similar enough rationale as yourself when it comes to spending money on hobbies etc. could be going on a lot worse (wish herself was as understanding haha).

I dont think anyone is really getting at you, we are all the cut from the same cloth with regards to pc hardware id assume, My big problem with the rtx release is where do the prices stop? in a generation or two we will be getting 1050ti level cards for 600euro

tuxy

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

My big problem with the rtx release is where do the prices stop? in a generation or two we will be getting 1050ti level cards for 600euro

If that's what people will pay and yields the largest profit for nvidia then yes.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

fitzgeme i hope you enjoy your new 2080ti Ive got similar enough rationale as yourself when it comes to spending money on hobbies etc. could be going on a lot worse (wish herself was as understanding haha).

I dont think anyone is really getting at you, we are all the cut from the same cloth with regards to pc hardware id assume, My big problem with the rtx release is where do the prices stop? in a generation or two we will be getting 1050ti level cards for 600euro

Seanfitz, the answer is it doesnt stop,Maybe in a few years we will get the 8800gt product that comes in with 100% more performance for the same price as last gen, but realistically that not going to happen any time soon. PC gaming has always been an expensive persuit.

I dont actually feel anyone is getting at me personally, I am just trying to present a contrary view, and not let it descend into a echo chamber. Its all too easy to fall into the negative bandwagon on these things, and start to think that Nvidia with their billions in profits are stupid, and people that have more money than you are somehow stupider than you. We are mostly grown men on here, with grown men commitments and lives. None of us are thick, and honestly most of the view points are pretty valid from a certain point of view. I do find this throwing the toys out of the pram about the pricing a bit much. Its a good thing for us that Nvidia make big profits, the share holders will expect it to continue, and they will have to do R&D into better things, and tap new markets.

We have to realise that moors law is over. Speed improvements gen on gen are slowing down. Processing on silicone can not go much smaller, (side note ray tracing may suit a quantum computing co processor very well albeit miles off) so parallelism and dedicated processing of tasks has to take over, and that r&d/manufacturing costs more. When the first multicore processors came out there was the same debate....why bother, no software uses them. Today the Ryzen (2 grand flagship thread ripper I would remind everyone) is hailed as the value hero pushing core count over core speed. So this is a good thing, the tech will trickle down over time, when that happens there will be new and even more expensive flagship things to moan about. No a 1050ti wont cost 600 euro. The 150 euro card you buy will have better performance than the one you get now and still cost 150 euro, it just there may be many many levels above that more than there are today. In otherwords...more choice.

Also, lower FPS give all out variable refresh rate monitors something to do, happy days.

z0oT

Blazer wrote: »

They pulled this crap years ago and it backfired badly on them for a few years when ATI came back strongly with a great performance/price cards.
If Nvidia aren’t careful the same thing will happen again.

Remember the days of the HD4870? It made such a mockery of the GTX 280 with price at the time. It was amusing to see Nvidia respond with deep price cuts across the board.

I had a HD4870 for a good number of years, I think it was the graphics card I owned the longest.

Hard to believe that's 10 years ago now.

Icyseanfitz

I remember owning a 7970 for years, fantastic card

Serephucus

Go go go!