Nvidia RTX Discussion

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 25-09-2018 9:10pm

2080 is about 7% faster on average, and the DLSS promise will extend the lead a lot. 2080 is 760 GBP cheapest on scan, 1080ti is 650 gbp cheapest on scan. That a 15% difference. So do you want some future proofing and a little faster or do you want to save 100 pounds and get something that available to buy today.

I understand people not changing cards and holding with what they have, but people actively buying old cards cause it is somehow the canny move to spend 800 euro on a last gen card, problem is people cant wait.

TitianGerm · 26-09-2018 1:04pm

1080ti down to £579 on Overclockers.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 26-09-2018 1:30pm

2080 is down to 719 there too. Think Nvidia are happy enough for people to buy pascal at the moment, then release DLSS to a new media cycle in a few months and sell touring again. There are tourings in stock there which is good.

26-09-2018 2:10pm

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

2080 is about 7% faster on average, and the DLSS promise will extend the lead a lot. 2080 is 760 GBP cheapest on scan, 1080ti is 650 gbp cheapest on scan. That a 15% difference. So do you want some future proofing and a little faster or do you want to save 100 pounds and get something that available to buy today.

I understand people not changing cards and holding with what they have, but people actively buying old cards cause it is somehow the canny move to spend 800 euro on a last gen card, problem is people cant wait.

None of the reviews and benches I've seen support this Fitz. They're all saying parity to within a frame or two.

If Nvidia release a "lol... extra performance" driver later, then we'll see. I don't see that happening though.

K.O.Kiki · 26-09-2018 2:23pm

L wrote: »

None of the reviews and benches I've seen support this Fitz. They're all saying parity to within a frame or two.

If Nvidia release a "lol... extra performance" driver later, then we'll see. I don't see that happening though.

Same performance with TAA, but Turing cards pull away with DLSS.
Only issue is that DLSS still hasn't been enabled in any shipping games.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 26-09-2018 2:28pm

L wrote: »

None of the reviews and benches I've seen support this Fitz. They're all saying parity to within a frame or two.

If Nvidia release a "lol... extra performance" driver later, then we'll see. I don't see that happening though.

Really, I am seeing 5-8% on most reviews especially in newer game engines. You have ignore 1080p thats CPU bottlenecked.

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_rtx_2080_founders_review,20.html

Its not a lot but it is more. DLSS id the "lol driver", but look you do what your want to do, and people see value in different places. I would just be gutted to buy a new 1080ti today and then in a few months the new titles are performing much better, or looking better with the 20 series. Obviously the 1080ti owner cares about performance, so thats going to sting. Is the 2080 good value, no....is it a better card than the 1080ti....yes. Whichever you care more about thats what your going to do. The actual smart money is on a 1070ti ot 1080 or god help us a AMD spaceheater, second hand, stay there for a bit and see what happens. But people cants wait, and a few nice price cuts will get all that pascal stock out the door in a jiffy at this stage. We are all being manipulated. There is a aspect of positive and negative reinforcement going on where people have no clear cut decision, but feel the urge to buy, a protest purchase is as good to Nvidia as a fanboi purchase. They propably make more on a pascal anyway.

Dcully · 26-09-2018 6:29pm

Playing Destiny 2 a lot lately and you would swear its rocking ray tracing already :P

tuxy · 26-09-2018 6:51pm

Dcully wrote: »

Playing Destiny 2 a lot lately and you would swear its rocking ray tracing already :P

So the current techniques for lighting are good enough and nvidia are wasting their time?

Dcully · 26-09-2018 7:05pm

Good enough for me tbh yeah.

Xenoronin · 27-09-2018 9:31am

Good enough lighting takes a lot of man power and skilled artists to implement. The goal of enabling ray tracing for everyone is to make it easier to create games with a high visual fidelity. Not every game has a 200+ development team behind it.

Praetorian · 28-09-2018 9:52am

Xenoronin wrote: »

Good enough lighting takes a lot of man power and skilled artists to implement. The goal of enabling ray tracing for everyone is to make it easier to create games with a high visual fidelity. Not every game has a 200+ development team behind it.

Game developers are still going to have to do lighting the same labor intensive way for the next few years. Ray tracing is an extra burden they will also have if they choose to, or if Nvidia pays for the dev time (which I assume will be the case with some game companies). Nvidia has not made things easier for game developers now. In 3-5 years time if every gpu has ray tracing hardware perhaps then game developers may not have to bother with the old labor intensive lighting "hacks".

Xenoronin · 28-09-2018 2:05pm

Praetorian wrote: »

Game developers are still going to have to do lighting the same labor intensive way for the next few years. Ray tracing is an extra burden they will also have if they choose to, or if Nvidia pays for the dev time (which I assume will be the case with some game companies). Nvidia has not made things easier for game developers now. In 3-5 years time if every gpu has ray tracing hardware perhaps then game developers may not have to bother with the old labor intensive lighting "hacks".

Yup, but it is important for us to have a first iteration. Sure this actually adds to the workload of some development teams, but they are also learning the skills and workflows required for those future games (and future development teams). We'd complain about any first iteration of ray tracing cards given we have sacrificed additional performance improvements generation on generation, but at some point this was going to happen. It happening now will benefit us in a few years. Nvidia may do some shady things and price gouge due to their position in the market, but I won't **** on their innovation efforts just because some companies can produce graphics which are amazing with the current tech.

.G. · 28-09-2018 10:32pm

Praetorian wrote: »

Game developers are still going to have to do lighting the same labor intensive way for the next few years. Ray tracing is an extra burden they will also have if they choose to, or if Nvidia pays for the dev time (which I assume will be the case with some game companies). Nvidia has not made things easier for game developers now. In 3-5 years time if every gpu has ray tracing hardware perhaps then game developers may not have to bother with the old labor intensive lighting "hacks".

This is thing, Where is the incentive for devs to spend time and money implementing ray tracing when its only a very small amount of PC gamers that will have the hardware to take advantage and none of the console gamers will. It will take years for ray tracing to become the norm.

It has to start somewhere but something will have to give imo, AMD get their sh!t together,Intel pull a rabbit out of a hat or Nvidia make RTX cards affordable and attractive to the average gamer. They've done the opposite.

Venom · 29-09-2018 11:24am

superg wrote: »

This is thing, Where is the incentive for devs to spend time and money implementing ray tracing when its only a very small amount of PC gamers that will have the hardware to take advantage and none of the console gamers will. It will take years for ray tracing to become the norm.

It has to start somewhere but something will have to give imo, AMD get their sh!t together,Intel pull a rabbit out of a hat or Nvidia make RTX cards affordable and attractive to the average gamer. They've done the opposite.

A couple of the tech channels on Youtube have mentioned that the RTX dev tech is super easy to use and implement in a game which if the case I see no reason a game wouldn't support it.

I really hope AMD and Intel bring their A game to the GPU scene as soon as possible and get some competition back in the market but unless they licence RTX tech from Nvidia which I just can't see happening, we could end up with multiple versions of ray tracing tech just like with G-sync and Freesync, which will be an extra pain in the ass for the consumer.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 29-09-2018 11:42am

To be honest I dont really care how hard or easy it is for the Devs, all I want is better looking games. Sick of the cartoon looking games. Maybe if it is easier for them they can spend the time on gameplay instead.

AMD have nothing, if they did they would be hinting at it so people would hold off on RTX cards and wait. They are also broke. They will bring out some 12um polaris chip that completes at the 1070/1080 level. Depsite people saying they want value and improved FPS per dollar when AMD release this, the interest will disappear like a fart in the wind because iterative die shrink incremental improvements are boring and really offer nothing except the oppertunity to play the same games a little faster. Hey maybe it will be really efficient...how exciting......;)

DXR which is brand agnostic,

EoinHef · 29-09-2018 12:19pm

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

To be honest I dont really care how hard or easy it is for the Devs, all I want is better looking games. Sick of the cartoon looking games. Maybe if it is easier for them they can spend the time on gameplay instead.

AMD have nothing, if they did they would be hinting at it so people would hold off on RTX cards and wait. They are also broke. They will bring out some 12um polaris chip that completes at the 1070/1080 level. Depsite people saying they want value and improved FPS per dollar when AMD release this, the interest will disappear like a fart in the wind because iterative die shrink incremental improvements are boring and really offer nothing except the oppertunity to play the same games a little faster. Hey maybe it will be really efficient...how exciting......;)

DXR which is brand agnostic,

Plenty would have been happy with faster cards without being forced to bend over to pay nvidia a premium for tech that currently has zero titles to make use of it.

Some others have just disappeared so far up there own arse that they cant see it and talk rubbish to justify their outlay.

But hey ho,the world turns and life goes on,amd this is the internet.

gizmo · 29-09-2018 1:08pm

Venom wrote: »

A couple of the tech channels on Youtube have mentioned that the RTX dev tech is super easy to use and implement in a game which if the case I see no reason a game wouldn't support it.

I really hope AMD and Intel bring their A game to the GPU scene as soon as possible and get some competition back in the market but unless they licence RTX tech from Nvidia which I just can't see happening, we could end up with multiple versions of ray tracing tech just like with G-sync and Freesync, which will be an extra pain in the ass for the consumer.

The ease of use will come from the fact that developers have an API ready for use in order to implement ray-tracing techniques as part of their render pipeline, DXR. There's no real RTX-specific tech to implement on their side, it just offers hardware acceleration of this functionality.

What'll be more interesting to see is this tech integrated into the third party engines. Epic have already said they'll be releasing support as part of the main branch of UE4 by the end of the year with the next mainline release, 4.22, featuring it to be released next year. This means it won't just be restricted to those games where developers have rolled their own engines like DICE and 4A Games.

As for why they wouldn't implement it, it comes down to the fact that they'll need to implement these separate processes alongside their existing systems in order to support all platforms and hardware levels. Take Metro for instance, they have their ray-traced powered GI solution for PC folk with RTX cards but they'll still need to use the traditional rasterisation-based techniques for the non-RTX users and, more importantly, console hardware. That's a pretty big ask for our studio who isn't getting some kind of financial incentive in order to implement it in the shorter term.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 29-09-2018 1:44pm

EoinHef wrote: »

ar up there own arse that they cant see it and talk rubbish to justify their outlay.

If you bothered to read my views on this rather than straw man me, you would see that my opinion is that people dont need performance increases. A 1050ti or a 1060 are fast enough to play all the games. If you want to play the games play the games. If you want high FPS turn down the settings. Your experiance of the games will not improve with a new card thats 25% faster than your old one. All these iterative improvements do is give people an excuse to buy new things in their price bracket.

Raster graphics have reaches a point where they are good enough and fast enough on modest hardware. If you actually care about the money then just stick with what you got and wait. At least RTX is an attempt to bring something new, and frankly the notion that the first gen card should be released to mature drivers and a host of games is a fantasy. You have to create the market first then satisfy it.

Honestly I dont need to justify the outlay, this is a hardware discussion forum not a social justice warrior forum, I am here to discuss the hardware, and as the only one on here who has put his money where his mouth is, and is the target audience of the RTX launch, I think my opinion is valid and I should not be subject to personal attacks. So many salty whingers...........

EoinHef · 29-09-2018 2:31pm

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

If you bothered to read my views on this rather than straw man me, you would see that my opinion is that people dont need performance increases. A 1050ti or a 1060 are fast enough to play all the games. If you want to play the games play the games. If you want high FPS turn down the settings. Your experiance of the games will not improve with a new card thats 25% faster than your old one. All these iterative improvements do is give people an excuse to buy new things in their price bracket.

Raster graphics have reaches a point where they are good enough and fast enough on modest hardware. If you actually care about the money then just stick with what you got and wait. At least RTX is an attempt to bring something new, and frankly the notion that the first gen card should be released to mature drivers and a host of games is a fantasy. You have to create the market first then satisfy it.

Honestly I dont need to justify the outlay, this is a hardware discussion forum not a social justice warrior forum, I am here to discuss the hardware, and as the only one on here who has put his money where his mouth is, and is the target audience of the RTX launch, I think my opinion is valid and I should not be subject to personal attacks. So many salty whingers...........

Its nothing to do with whinging,and everything to do with the fact your saying your opinion is fact and anyone who disagrees with you is either poor,trying to shame you,wrong or should just be happy with what they have.

Evidently by the reaction to the RTX cards in general theres a lot of people who dont agree with you,me included.

Of course thats just my opinion.

Dcully · 29-09-2018 2:33pm

and as the only one on here who has put his money where his mouth is

Those of us who chose not to buy and then criticize the cost are also putting money where their mouth is , ie in our pockets

We get that your more of an enthusiast than the rest of us mere mortals but at times you come across as if you were going to rush out and buy regardless of if nvidia were as you say offering something new or not.
Am i wrong?

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 29-09-2018 2:57pm

Disagree all you want but dont insult me please, put forward your argument rather than attacking me and twisting my words.

My opinion by definition can never be fact, nor have I represented as fact.

Saying my head is up my arse is shaming or insulting or both, I never suggested that people with a contrary view are poor, thats what you are reading into it. I am suggesting that people are being manipulated to think " well the RTX is out of my price bracket or my price to perceived value bracket", but I have to buy something just because there is a new series of card, so I will get a 1080ti and bin a perfectly good card". To suggest that I am belittling people is you retelling my opinion spun to your viewpoint. If people actually think the RTX offers no value then stick and wait, no matter what you can afford. Thats my opinion.

Your last post there is a classic example of the straw man attack "where an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument"....stop twisting my words please. I take the time to explain my position and the nuance of it, before attacking me take the time to actually read my words.

Its quite obvious (and I will straw man you here now ) that you think I am a rich prick on here to show off and laugh at the plebs. I am madly ignoring the failings and limitations of the RTX launch like cost (despite mentioning them several time but thats just being smug and an attempt at self deprecation) to justify my purchase cause I regret it and need confirmation bias (even though I am a rich prick, but obviously not rich enough that I still care about it...wait,,,which...anyway defiantly a prick). My argument that Nvidia is getting people buying a old pascal card for close to MSRP, is stupid because....like, thats where the value lies, and there is no way that the most successful GPU maker in the world can push this ray tracing thing, RTX is a lie, and in two years old 1080ti will still be totally relevant ...but the 2 years old card I have today is somehow not......

There is not internal logic in these arguments. My position of "I want it so I purchased it and its awesome" is at least honest. The not buying argument is valid also. But the stopgap purchase is stupid IMHO. If AMD bring out a better card I will buy that. Yes I would... I like to get the latest GPU...so shoot me, usually people are happy that you share, but my purchase seems to really anger people, and the fact I have the audacity to have an opinion to boot is a double whammy of ire.

Dcully - answered above. Again if you take the time to read my opinion rather than scanning it and filling in the gaps with your own, you would see we agree. Again I never called anyone a mere mortal because they dont spend on what I spend on, thats your version of me speaking. What do you want me to say. I am 40 years old and a professional. I like this stuff and have the means to purchase it without consideration or oppertunity cost. I am interested in the opinions of people that buy new things I am interested in. Interestingly nobody has asked me how the 2080ti performs...cause people actually are not interested in the performance, they are only interested in the story from their point of view...RTX bad, PC gaming has been gentrified, all rise AMD working class hero, ray tracing is a scam...

29-09-2018 3:26pm

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Honestly I dont need to justify the outlay, this is a hardware discussion forum not a social justice warrior forum, I am here to discuss the hardware, and as the only one on here who has put his money where his mouth is

I think that's the thing Fitz - the rest of us also put our money where our mouths are. It just so happened that for us that meant putting our wallets back in our pockets and not buying the RTX (well, admittedly I'll be on the fence until the end of November but I'd need to see something stellar to change my mind).

I hope you enjoy your 2080 Ti man, but this isn't a courage of our convictions thing by any stretch. :P

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

I think my opinion is valid and I should not be subject to personal attacks. So many salty whingers...........

Sure dude, true enough it shouldn't be being made personal. You have to admit though you're winding people up a fair bit as well - it's not a shock people get pissed off at being told they're buying as a protest/cheaping out/being chumps.

29-09-2018 3:33pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Same performance with TAA, but Turing cards pull away with DLSS.
Only issue is that DLSS still hasn't been enabled in any shipping games.

I'm not convinced on that one yet Kiki - I'm wary that DLSS is going to be a lot of hype and little delivery. Nice bit of analysis on it here which suggests it's not doing anything that clever use of existing hardware couldn't already do.

Dcully · 29-09-2018 3:47pm

Dcully - answered above. Again if you take the time to read my opinion rather than scanning it and filling in the gaps with your own, you would see we agree. Again I never called anyone a mere mortal because they dont spend on what I spend on, thats your version of me speaking

Ok for a start dont even try to spin that one, i was not in any way having a go at you.
Mere mortals is a term i used on myself, i never said you referred to anyone as such.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 29-09-2018 3:53pm

L wrote: »

- it's not a shock people get pissed off at being told they're buying as a protest/cheaping out/being chumps.

If your actually happy with your purchase how can you get wound up? I could take the opinion that the neigh sayers think I am a chump, and I think they actually said stuff about more money than sense, but because I see value in the new card I am certain I am not, its only when you kinda know you have been scammed you get angry.

Again the no purchase decision is totally valid and a good one for those who see no value...I have been totally consistent on that point.

When I said I put my money where my mouth is, people seem to not understand that sentence. My mouth is saying the RTX is good, I put my money there. If you mouth says something different and you do that thing, then your good too, see its "your mouth". That being said there are a lot of hurlers on the ditch here, who have no skin in this game at all but have strong opinions in-spite of the fact that this release was not for them and never was. If you were going to purchase and you decided not to, then more power to you, and impressive strong will power to boot. Then you put your money back in your pocket. I think to be fair there is a lot if imaginary windows shoppers that really have not clue about the motivations and desires of the people actually buying the cards and consider the enthusiast and ultra enthusiast a fool. I did not think that this point would have needed explanation in this place.

Its the bump in pascal sales (1080ti specifically) I cannot understand, its such an obvious bait tatic.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 29-09-2018 3:54pm

Dcully wrote: »

Ok for a start dont even try to spin that one, i was not in any way having a go at you.
Mere mortals is a term i used on myself, i never said you referred to anyone as such.

The straw man attack is so annoying is it not........QED. Imagine 10 pages of that rubbish.

EoinHef · 29-09-2018 3:57pm

In my case i havent asked how its performed as,which im sure is the case for more than me,ive looked at numerous benches for rasterized games where the reviews went up. And in just the context of performamce,ignoring price,the 2080 Ti is quite impressive.

And theres no point in asking about ray traced performance as theres not much to be testing it on so what would be the point?

When a few ray trace enabled games come out id be interested in hearing about it then.

Dcully · 29-09-2018 4:21pm

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

The straw man attack is so annoying is it not........QED. Imagine 10 pages of that rubbish.

WTF are you on about?
I have not had a go at you any stage yet you continue to go down this road?

29-09-2018 5:30pm

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

If your actually happy with your purchase how can you get wound up? I could take the opinion that the neigh sayers think I am a chump, and I think they actually said stuff about more money than sense, but because I see value in the new card I am certain I am not, its only when you kinda know you have been scammed you get angry.

Anyone who is spending north of 500 quid of disposable income on something wants to feel good about it Fitz. They don't need to secretly feel scammed not to want the gloss taken off it. They just want to feel good about their purchase.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

If you were going to purchase and you decided not to, then more power to you, and impressive strong will power to boot. Then you put your money back in your pocket. I think to be fair there is a lot if imaginary windows shoppers that really have not clue about the motivations and desires of the people actually buying the cards.

Its the bump in pascal sales (1080ti specifically) I cannot understand, its such an obvious bait tatic.

Well, I'm a little different on this one as I bought a 1080 Ti with EVGA specifically for the option to step up if the 20 series cards looked solid. So, while I'm hedged, I'm probably still part of that pascal bump :P

My logic on it was simple. My 4 year old GPU wasn't really up to driving my 4k screen, my PSU had hit a decade old (it's still going but time to retire it to lighter duties before it blows), and EVGA had a nice bundle which would replace the two at about a fifth off RRP (with an option to step up to the 20 series when it released).

I'd imagine for most people buying pascal at this point, the logic is pretty similar - it doesn't really matter what games Nvidia is playing, what matters is the options available and the marginal price you're willing to accept for extra performance over the baseline (say a 1050 or 1060). You run along the list of GPUs until you hit the highest one you're willing to pay for.

What's happened with the 2080 and 2080 Ti is Nvidia has slid them on top of the existing lineup. There's no space for anything this generation that will outperform the 1080 Ti at a lower price point - so the pascal bump is people who were holding out for that, and now know they won't get it.

It's logically consistent - they're just not looking to pay the early adopters tax Nvidia's slapped on to the 20 series.

Now, what still has me wondering is why Nvidia didn't go with a brute force card, and put the raytracing and clever bits onto a separate sister card. The die size jump is phenomenal between the 10 series and the 20 series and there was a process shrink to boot. You could comfortably have met expectations on traditional metrics (the die jump alone added 60% more chip real estate, before the process shrink), and have had your specialist card for your fancy early adopter stuff.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 30-09-2018 9:24am

Dcully wrote: »

WTF are you on about?
I have not had a go at you any stage yet you continue to go down this road?

Dcully wrote: »

We get that your more of an enthusiast than the rest of us mere mortals but at times you come across as if you were going to rush out and buy regardless of if nvidia were as you say offering something new or not.
Am i wrong?

I straw manned you there Dcully to misrepresent you opinion just like you did to me in the above rather pissy and passive aggressive post, designed to degrade my opinion because I am not really part of/ out of touch with the group, and my world is somehow less real, and my mindset and decision making is irrational. I have to say its a cleverly designed paragraph for a debate.

L - no I stand by my opinion. Especially if you had already waited 4 years. Thats why EVGA released the deal, to push people on the cusp to make that purchase and sell last gen cards and bundle it with a PSU the person would otherwise likely not have purchased ( like what a random bundle?). People just reflex purchased, and EVGA knew well that would happen (they had the new cards for ages).

I understand somebody going second hand or getting a 1060 or 1070 but at the 1080ti level, the 2080 going head to head, and being a similar enough price, the new card seems like a much better hedge because its rasters a little better than the 1080ti but also covers the possibility that DLSS and RTX take off. That way your covered whatever way it goes, the definition of a hedge.

Its nothing personal, we are all susceptible to marketing and purchase pressures, sometimes we even think we are making these decisions ourselves for sensible reasons. Not trying to piss on your chips, but it is a thread about the new cards, I wound not make this point on another thread where the only effect was to make you feel bad, but the reality is you bought something a little worse, for a little less. A fine GPU no doubt, but the canny move was second hand. I have one in warranty only 6 months old on adverts for 550 adverts asking...another buyer on adverts was telling me he has a stock of around 10 1080 and 1080ti from failed miners (nothing wrong with mining cards at all) and he will be selling them at savage discounts too.

They do this in cars too. Just as a new model is to be launched, they drop the price of the old one, add a few extras and try to clear their stock. People come along and see the low cost and added value of a car that is at the time the current model at a cost lower than they had thought. 1 years later they are driving around a car that while only a years old, is a generation old and missing the new technology that in time becomes the norm. The car still does its job but come resale time the fact its the newest last gen car is worth nothing.

Sorry foir the long post, but I feel the need to carefully explain my opinion.

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