Nvidia RTX Discussion

Dcully

Your paranoid man , absolutely unreal.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Again the post is about me and negative about me, rather than the topic. Do you have any arguments about the topic i am interested to hear them. Do you think the 1080ti is a good new purchase now? Its to oddly softening media position on the RTX card something to worry about. What about the availability and price drops on 2080 card? THe powerlimits? The overclocking?

Short little quip posts intended to gather thanks dont add much to the debate and are really intended to show us your level of chill, and resigned exasperation in dealing with me the irrational child.
Am I wrong?

L

That's the thing though Fitz, I purchased with the expectation of stepping up to the 20 series (that's what I mean by having hedged myself).

The trouble being the 20 series just really isn't good enough to justify sinking another 250-900 quid into - unless you want to be an early adopter for ray tracing (which I'm going to give a generation or two to shake out first).

Still, ask me again at the end of November - I've until then to decide whether or not to stick with the 1080 Ti or grab a 20 series. Maybe Nvidia will pull something out of its hat by then, or the prices will drop? :P

As far as buying second hand goes, I heavily considered it. The sums, timelines and added hassle didn't line up vs the EVGA bundle. I paid ~€630 for my 1080 Ti - I figured secondhand a decent deal post release would be in around €500-550. Not enough in it to make it worth the delay, lock in and hassle.

Now, looking at the RRPs on EVGAs site, it's more of a toss up. If I was paying ~€800 for a 1080 Ti anyway, the 2080 looks a lot more appealing in the €850-900 range. Still, that's for EVGA - they're not exactly known for low end prices.

On bundle randomness, a quality PSU makes a certain amount of sense to bundle with a powerful GPU. Board, CPU and Ram go together, and your GPU is the major factor in how big a PSU you're going to need. It's hard to think of another component that would make more sense with a GPU.

On cars, to be fair, nobody should be buying a new car if they're worried about their resale value. It's guaranteed that the latest, hottest car still lost about a quarter its value between the showroom and your driveway.

.G.

Smart phone makers continue to increase prices on the top end phones and people continue to pay them so they'll keep going up. Nvidia is doing the same and people are buying the cards which pushes the latest and greatest tech further and further away from most people although its heartening to see there's already stock available of 2080s which certainly wasn't the case with the 1080 for a long time after launch so maybe a lot more people are not having it.

I bought a 1080 at launch and it was my most expense card purchase. I was fully ready to get a 2080 if the numbers stacked up and the price increase was sensible but they don't and it isn't. I can afford both new cards but I'm just not willing to spend what they cost however as long as enough people do, it will encourage more and more of this sh!t in future generations as long as Nvidia have the monopoly, that's my real issue but it is what it is.

Serephucus

I initially said I wouldn't get involved in this, however, these are my thoughts, for what it's worth:

Rasterisation

GTX 1080 Ti and RTX 2080 have (roughly) the same performance, from what I've seen.
GTX 1080 Ti is anywhere from 10-30+% cheaper than the 2080.
The 2080 is objectively a bad buy.

RTX 2080 Ti is (roughly) 35% faster than a 1080 Ti.
RTX 2080 Ti is anywhere from 40-80% more expensive than a 1080 Ti.
It's bad value, but it is the highest-performance card out right now, so a case can be made.


Ray-Tracing

We don't know.

Maybe it'll be good, maybe not. By the time we find out, RTX 3000 will be around the corner.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Praise be...debate thank you.

Re the bundle....a monitor would be a good thing to bundle with, or a motherboard, or even one of their excellent AIO coolers.. Pascal was no more power hungry and usually a lot less than previous cards, so the upgrader this was aimed at would likely have a PSU suitable, and its addition while not a silly thing to have (any computer guy should have a spare PSU lying around) was probably something you wouldn't have put in the basket in the absence of the deal.....

Nothing will change between now and end November, nor do evga want anything to change. The cynic might suggest that the end of November was specifically chosen to not give people reason to go to the hassle of stepping up. Can the cost of the step up change??? dont know the details of the deal.

As for the hassle of second hand, I put up a card yesterday and a chap is coming around to my house in an hour to buy. He gets his card straight away. I have had a lot more cards be DOA new than trouble second hand with tested working hardware.

Cars depreciate at regular ammounts and with big blips. Big blips are when a new model comes out, age and milage. GPU hardware is the same. People always get this wrong with cars they think that you loose money driving it off the forecourt and thats depreciation. What that is, is half the money the dealer made on the car and half the money they would make reselling the car. If you have done your deal well, that money is limited. If its 25% your just got rode. But thats a side note, my point that buying old model cars at end of life cycle is analogous to what you and others did.

Serephucus wrote: »

I initially said I wouldn't get involved in this, however, these are my thoughts, for what it's worth:



Ray-Tracing

We don't know.

Maybe it'll be good, maybe not. By the time we find out, RTX 3000 will be around the corner.

Agree with your assessment except for two points - firstly the 1080ti to 2080 is not as clearcut as people make out. The potential raster improvements with DLSS alone may be enough to push people to the small extra cost, and you get a small increase today as well in most modern engines.

The RTX 3000 sales will be reliant on the success of the RTX 2000 so I am sure Nvidia will push to get it right before launching the next series, there is no way they will just abandon an entire series of cards without delivering. We are always just around the corner to the next bigger thing, but 2 years cycles are more likely, and I suspect by March/April 2019 we will have a good idea where RTX and DLSS stands and RTX 3000 series for a Q2 2020 release. It depends on what AMD do, but its looking like they will complete with the 10 series cards and go for the value/performance area.

The other thread with the chap with 3k to spend on a new high end gaming system is interesting. What would you do with that budget today, seeing as you could get what from a gaming POV is the best of the best. I cant see that chap pulling the trigger on a 1080ti when the rest of the system is so decadent.

Dcully

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Again the post is about me and negative about me, rather than the topic. Do you have any arguments about the topic i am interested to hear them. Do you think the 1080ti is a good new purchase now? Its to oddly softening media position on the RTX card something to worry about. What about the availability and price drops on 2080 card? THe powerlimits? The overclocking?

Short little quip posts intended to gather thanks dont add much to the debate and are really intended to show us your level of chill, and resigned exasperation in dealing with me the irrational child.
Am I wrong?

As for the cards discussion ive already stated my thoughts and you know full well, your just trolling now.

Ive no interest in a discussion with you anymore, your obviously paranoid and or trolling, ive explained already that i was not having a go at you yet you read what you want to hear just to create hysteria for yourself to get into a beef over.

Serephucus

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Agree with your assessment except for two points - firstly the 1080ti to 2080 is not as clearcut as people make out. The potential raster improvements with DLSS alone may be enough to push people to the small extra cost, and you get a small increase today as well in most modern engines.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Palit/GeForce_RTX_2080_Super_Jetstream/33.html

You're right, it seems. It's around 10%. I stand by my originally assessment though; as it stand, it's a bad by, because of the price. If they were the same price, sure, but they're not. At best they're the same value, if you get a decent 1080Ti and a cheap-as-possible 2080, but at the point the cooler is probably worse.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

The RTX 3000 sales will be reliant on the success of the RTX 2000 so I am sure Nvidia will push to get it right before launching the next series, there is no way they will just abandon an entire series of cards without delivering. We are always just around the corner to the next bigger thing, but 2 years cycles are more likely, and I suspect by March/April 2019 we will have a good idea where RTX and DLSS stands and RTX 3000 series for a Q2 2020 release. It depends on what AMD do, but its looking like they will complete with the 10 series cards and go for the value/performance area.

I have to disagree on this one. There's no way in hell NVIDA will be sitting on 12nm any longer than they have to be, with AMD on 7nm. Process isn't everything, sure, but a lot of where Vega falls down is power consumption and clocks, and 7nm will help a lot with this.

The only way we won't see RTX 3000 in 2019 if if AMD releases nothing, or as good as, which I don't see happening. Remember: 2080 Ti is massive, and consequently very costly for NVIDIA to produce. If nothing else, they'll move to 7nm and release a refresh or some bull**** if only to increase their profit margins.

L

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Re the bundle....a monitor would be a good thing to bundle with, or a motherboard, or even one of their excellent AIO coolers.. Pascal was no more power hungry and usually a lot less than previous cards, so the upgrader this was aimed at would likely have a PSU suitable, and its addition while not a silly thing to have (any computer guy should have a spare PSU lying around) was probably something you woulnt have put in the bastek in the absence of the deal.....

I wouldn't have bought it with most of those Fitz.

• I've a good 4k monitor already (and it's an upgrade you wouldn't be trying to cycle at the same time as the GPU given they're both costly),
• the motherboard would lock the bundle onto being for Intel users only (and generally those who would want to change CPU at the same time as their GPU - again, typically a different upgrade cycle)
• the AIO cooler - well, I am in the market for a new cooler but that's more chance. It wouldn't generally be a plus for me.

In contrast, my old PSU was good enough for my old card, but undersized given its age to be trusted with a new GPU. A gold quality PSU in the bundle was actually a selling point for me, and since it's generally useful is still something you can resell if you don't need it.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Nothing will change between now and end November, nor do evga want anything to change. The cynic might suggest that the end of November was specifically chosen to not give people reason to go to the hassle of stepping up. Can the cost of the step up change??? dont know the details of the deal.

Well, it's a rolling timeframe from when you buy so it's less of a chosen date, and more a consequence of when I bought. The step up is the difference between what they're selling the card you want to go up to, and the price you purchased at, so it can go down or up.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

As for the hassle of second hand, I put up a card yesterday and a chap is coming around to my house in an hour to buy. He gets his card straight away. I have had a lot more cards be DOA new than trouble second hand with tested working hardware.

Sure, but you're selling at the moment - scarcity is on your side. I'd have been buying. Look at adverts as a buyer and see - there's very little in the way of reasonably priced stock.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Cars depreciate at regular ammounts and with big blips. Big blips are when a new model comes out, age and milage. GPU hardware is the same. People always get this wrong with cars they think that you loose money driving it off the forecourt and thats depreciation. What that is, is half the money the dealer made on the car and half the money they would make reselling the car. If you have done your deal well, that money is limited. If its 25% your just got rode.

It's still money you're losing purely from buying it new. I'll be less flippant about it - it's probably more like 10% from driving it off the forecourt, and 25% within the first year.

There's not a lot of difference between a car a couple of years old and a brand new one - save status.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

But thats a side note, my point that buying old model cars at end of life cycle is analogous to what you did.

Sure, it's not the worst analogy - it probably won't surprise you that I see no benefit either in having the newest model car either. Unless it's giving me something significant that I can't get from the older cheaper one.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Dcully, thanks for discussing me again in a negative way, your adding greatly to the thread. Your review of the RTX being "meh" was also insightful and should indeed have been the end of the thread.

Serephucus - I dont know about 7nm. AMD have yet to produce anything at the size in volume. Intel cant seem to make 10nm work and they have been printing chips for 50 years. AMD are at a point where they can basically claim whatever they like but deliver nothing. I assume Nvidia would have similar issues at 7nm, and the jump from 12 to 7 it pretty drastic in one generation. AMD have always shown great promise but only deliver once in a while. Nvidia are the evil empire, but they tend to deliver nearly all the time. This article is interesting on the topic https://www.extremetech.com/computing/268379-troubling-news-amd-moves-7nm-gpu-production-back-to-tsmc

Its interesting to see the benchmarks and media message change as the cards are out more time, the initial 2080 looked like a total sh1tter in the lineup, but as time goes on the question is more subtle. Because there are still 2080 cards out there due to the initial reviews, there have been some prices drops that make its even harder to know what to buy. Tech or tomorrow is now opening reccomending the 2080 over the 1080ti, and I think this will become more common for top end builds. If we get a bunch of DLSS patches that seals its not to mention the promise of ray tracing...

L - obviously your purchase made sense to you, and thats great. Total agree about loosing money buying cars new, even if they bundled a new car with a bike and said I could upgrade to the new model at my own expense in a few months if I was not happy I still would not buy it unless there was significant technical improvement, that actually made a difference to me rather than being a incremental improvement in top speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrF4k6wJ-do

Dcully

Dcully, thanks for discussing me again in a negative way, your adding greatly to the thread. Your review of the RTX being "meh" was also insightful and should indeed have been the end of the thread.

Keep it man, your doing yourself no favours.

L

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

If we get a bunch of DLSS patches that seals its not to mention the promise of ray tracing...

Honestly, I'm really skeptical that they'll be able to reliably patch DLSS for increased general performance. Neural nets are notoriously hard to debug since your point of control is so removed from the end output (there's a bunch of amusing examples of this - my favourite being a robotic arm that learned to position itself so that it only looked like it was in the right spot - from the perspective of the feedback camera in the video it was trained on. ).

Increased performance/debugging in specific games would be more realistic but labour intensive I suspect. I've had a quick look at their white paper on it but I don't see anything that seems to address it.

I'd really really like to see some "in the wild" DLSS analysis. Something that is based on messier, less controlled inputs than the current on the rail benchmarks.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

L - obviously your purchase made sense to you, and thats great. Total agree about loosing money buying cars new, even if they bundled a new car with a bike and said I could upgrade to the new model at my own expense in a few months if I was not happy I still would not buy it unless there was significant technical improvement, that actually made a difference to me rather than being a incremental improvement in top speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrF4k6wJ-do

It does, and I think that's the fundamental difference Fitz. I'm not an early adopter - I'm content with solid rasterization performance, and I'll get to buying something for raytracing when it's proven technology. Until then I'm not interested in paying a premium for it. Different aims and desires and all that.

Now, that brings me to an interesting point. I don't think the 20 series are out of line with Nvidia's prior pricing. They're pretty much middle of the pack in terms of pricing for die size and transistor count for Nvidia historically. The issue is they're giant chips with accordingly massive price tags.

They're an unwieldy welding of two disparate technologies - and that's the problem. Since they've given over so much chip real estate to raytracing, they're rather poor value for more standard GPU tasks, and since they still had to make a show of being "as good as or better" than the 10 series at standard GPU tasks, I'd bet they're not going to be as great at raytracing as more single purpose cards if/when games start heading that direction.

They're a hybrid architecture and the PC tends to reward specialization of function - that's how we got GPUs in the first place after all. :P

That said, they're still impressive technology now - just a very weird design choice for Nvidia to make. Probably a consequence of this hybrid rendering model they're pushing for.

tuxy

Why is there no talk about the RTX 2070?
It's out in just over two weeks and will have performance in current games of something like the 1070ti or 1080.
This time it will have it's own core a bit lit the 60 rage normally does so it's not a cut down 2080.
It is also the lowest price point at $600(€650?) that you can get RT and Tensor cores. The 70 range has been a big seller for Nvdia in the past and usually has people taking about upgrading to the next gen but not this time around.
What do people think competition between 1080 ti and 2070 will be like since they are in the same price bracket.

L

tuxy wrote: »

Why is there no talk about the RTX 2070?
It's out in just over two weeks and will have performance in current games of something like the 1070ti or 1080.
This time it will have it's own core a bit lit the 60 rage normally does so it's not a cut down 2080.
It is also the lowest price point at $600(€650?) that you can get RT and Tensor cores. The 70 range has been a big seller for Nvdia in the past and usually has people taking about upgrading to the next gen but not this time around.
What do people think competition between 1080 ti and 2070 will be like since they are in the same price bracket.

Not much to say on it tuxy until we get some benchmarks. If anything I'd say it's going to feel the downside of the compromise architecture worse than the 2080 and 2080 Ti do.

It's a chip about the size and cost of the 1080 Ti, but with only 2/3 the chip useable for currently common tasks.

That said, if it's effectively a 1080 with raytracing support, and it stays at 600 - that's a card that may have a niche.

Solitaire

This is a great thread here. Really. Please read it and you might see what's going wrong here.

Any more fighting and this thread and indeed topic of conversation dies.

Dcully, you've been played into playing yourself at this point. You may have had a point back when you were trying to debate the issue but you've been flamebaited into trying to get the last word in while sulking furiously. I said something about the whole falling-for-flamebait thing earlier in this topic, didn't I? Quit while you're behind or I'll be stuck having to give you a timeout

fitzgeme, you're actually a really good contributor to this forum when you don't act like an unmitigated ass and/or sense an easy mark and go in for the kill. The problem is this is not the first time you've made great strides in derailing this thread, I've already had to call you out twice and you only dodged getting banned earlier on by the thinnest of margins. I really don't want to ban you either, but you're fast approaching a point where your antagonism and bouts of passive-aggressive martyrdom completely undermines your many contributions to the forum. Keep this up and you'll be going on an extended vacation from the forum.

Dcully

I simply refuted his claim that i was having a go at him, nothing more nothing less.
I would not call that having the last word in any way at all, pretty sure anyone on here would do the same including yourself.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Understood Solitaire......

Interestingly the new intel 9900k and 9700k are coming out. With RTX being bottlenecked by an overclocked 8700k in some tests this is interesting. I have to say I never find upgrading the CPU to be much of a benefit if you have a half decent chip already, Intel are pushing up core count despite there being very little that benefits, but its a reaction to ryzen. I am not sold on these chips yet as they just seem to be binned 8700k's...And getting rid of HT on the 9700k is a bit weird...maybe they are pushing for core speed. Its very analogous to the raster/rtx thing. Do you push for raw speed in IPC or do you push for palallelism and hope the install base becomes large enough that the software starts to use it.....with multicore the parallelism seems to be winning over.

Going to wait on the ray tracing and DLSS titles to appear now to see whats what. Still super suspicious that Nvidia have been playing a con game to offload pascal stock, and are purposly holding back on software for RTX adopters

BArra

It's good news that a lot of Z370 boards will support the new 9 series chips, if figures tally up that there is definitive improvements over the 8700k then there is an easy upgrade for z370 owners in the future

I have a z370 asus maximus x hero, it's bios (1602) is already updated for the new chips

Dcully

Bottlenecking an oced 8700K :eek:

L

There is one I'm currently curious about. Anyone with an RTX had a go with Scanner yet?

I'm really curious how good the overclock it produces is, and how easy it is to use.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Dcully wrote: »

Bottlenecking an oced 8700K :eek:

Yep 11.48 in this video, mostly at 1080p for those seeking 240htz gaming. Seems to me the 9900k is there to have a high core count to complete with Ryzen and a massive IPC per core to keep the gaming crown. Around 500 USD which is potentially in the good value bracket. Nice to have a drop in upgrade for 8700k without chip-set change.

Used the scanner - works fairly well and seems to get me to where a manual overclock would go anyway. I can get + 750 on the memoryy and + 125 on the core at 115% power (which is 145% over founders cards on my evga card)...even there I only get through time spy 50% of the time. These cards are totally power limited, even at only 70c. Nvidia have put in very cautions power limits and only custom bios and shunt mods etc can get past it. There is not a lot of overclocking headroom on these. Again the question is what will the headroom be with the Turing and Ray tracing cores going 100% along with the cuda cores. At the moment we can only load up half the die, so maybe this caution is for this reason. We really really need a ray tracing + dlss game to come out to test these cards properly. Its like buying a new car and having to stay in low gear for thousands of kilometers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ0yAgbVkEQ

.G.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Yep 11.48 in this video, mostly at 1080p for those seeking 240htz gaming. Seems to me the 9900k is there to have a high core count to complete with Ryzen and a massive IPC per core to keep the gaming crown. Around 500 USD which is potentially in the good value bracket. Nice to have a drop in upgrade for 8700k without chip-set change.

Used the scanner - works fairly well and seems to get me to where a manual overclock would go anyway. I can get + 750 on the memoryy and + 125 on the core at 115% power (which is 145% over founders cards on my evga card)...even there I only get through time spy 50% of the time. These cards are totally power limited, even at only 70c. Nvidia have put in very cautions power limits and only custom bios and shunt mods etc can get past it. There is not a lot of overclocking headroom on these. Again the question is what will the headroom be with the Turing and Ray tracing cores going 100% along with the cuda cores. At the moment we can only load up half the die, so maybe this caution is for this reason. We really really need a ray tracing + dlss game to come out to test these cards properly. Its like buying a new car and having to stay in low gear for thousands of kilometers

Its almost as if people should have waited before buying them :D

btkm8unsl0w5r4

superg wrote: »

Its almost as if people should have waited before buying them :D

And where exactly is the fun in that There is nothing sensible or restrained about this stuff....infact I need to go preorder the ray tracing games straight away

TerrorFirmer

In fairness there's technical bottlenecking, and there's real world bottlenecking. An RTX bottlenecking via an 8700K @ 240hz is literally something that'll afflict 0.01% of the gaming population. Not discounting it, obviously those with a 2080Ti will be top level enthusiasts, but even within that narrow niche field, 240hz is so utterly niche that I'd say it's not even worth discussion realistically and we would've known that even before the card was released to reviews.

144hz is rare as it is.

Still super suspicious that Nvidia have been playing a con game to offload pascal stock, and are purposly holding back on software for RTX adopters

I'd say that's fact rather than suspicion. Nvidia have a ton of GTX stock following the mining collapse. Inflated RTX prices = GTX prices looking irresistable and they need to shift them.

Wouldn't be shocked to see RTX plummet in price in the coming months in line with realistic pricing, once GTX stocks have been largely moved.

tuxy

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

And where exactly is the fun in that There is nothing sensible or restrained about this stuff....infact I need to go preorder the ray tracing games straight away

What's the first game that will support RTX?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

shadow of the tomb raider I would say, patch due out soon. First we need to October Windows update with DXR then the game gets patched.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Redstone 5 DXR Windows 10 update launched today.....little steps

tuxy

And the Nvidia driver to support DXR has just been released.
It will be interesting to see if shadow of the tomb raider will patch support in before Battlefield releases in November. Has it been confirmed that Battlefield will be released with support for it or will it be later on with a patch?

tuxy

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Redstone 5 DXR Windows 10 update launched today.....little steps

Have you been following this update? Microsoft had to pull it and are only now slowly releasing a fixed version of it.
I guess games developers will not do anything until the update has been pushed to everyone.

I actually think there is a good chance Battlefield 5 will be the first game with any kind of RTX support.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

yeah saw that....I see all my machines are getting it now but it was pulled for a few days cause a tiny number of users lost files for some reason, bigger issue was that chrome went a bit wonky with it but that seems fixed too....waiting patiently for some RTX content...hell even a benchmark would do....